God must engage in un-ideal actions

[csuguy]

An interesting thought came to me today - even God must engage in un-ideal actions, when dealing with an un-ideal world/people.

Don't confuse this for saying that God engages in sinful acts, that is of course false.

However, consider that in many events, things didn't go the way God ideally wanted them to go - thanks to sinful man. Indeed, all instances of sin are contrary to the ideal - and so is the justice that is employed to deal with sin. We deserve death, but God does not desire it. Nevertheless, due to sinful man he was forced to give us Law and Justice. He begrudgingly permits Divorce.

Paul even tells us that the Law exists for sinners - and that the Law has no meaning for those who live according to the Spirit.

Consider the many people's that God has destroyed on account of sin - even threatening to destroy the Israelite's due to the Golden Calph. Yet Moses interceded with God on their behalf and preserved them - though that generation was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. And due to this, God changed how the Priests were selected. Before the first son of every family was to be a Priest. After this incident, we got the Levitical Priesthood.

 

[Truster]

Everything is going according to plan.

 

[csuguy]

Everything is going according to plan.

The overall plan, of course. Yet, due to our sin, the individual results of the plan are less than ideal. God desires that all would repent and be saved - yet we know that isn't what happens.

 

[Truster]

The overall plan, of course. Yet, due to our sin, the individual results of the plan are less than ideal. God desires that all would repent and be saved - yet we know that isn't what happens.

Those that the Almighty ordained to repentance do repent.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of YAH VEH: and as many as were ordained to eternal life trusted.​

 

[Charles94]

Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery:

Gen50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

Samson motivated by lust:

Jud14:3-4 Then his father and mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?”

And Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she pleases me well.”

4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

The Chaldeans want to kill and steal:

Hab1:5-6“Look among the nations and watch—Be utterly astounded!
For I will work a work in your days Which you would not believe, though it were told you.
For indeed I am raising up the Chaldeans, A bitter and hasty nation
Which marches through the breadth of the earth, To possess dwelling places that are not theirs.

Pharoah refused to obey God:

Rom9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

And of course:

Isa53:10Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief...

Acts2:22-23 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death...

Just giving some examples from scripture that there is a sense in which God is telling the story that He intends to tell, even amidst the disobedience. The overall plan accounts for humanity's evil choices - including God's authority to limit or restrict those evil choices - which gets into what Calvinists mean when they say that "God ordains whatsoever comes to pass."

 

[csuguy]

Those that the Almighty ordained to repentance do repent.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of YAH VEH: and as many as were ordained to eternal life trusted.​

First off, let me ask you how you address the scripture that says that God desires that all be saved? Is he not powerful enough to make this happen? Is the verse false? Or how do you explain God's desire, and yet an opposing result - that many are not saved? If things simply go according to his will - why isn't his desire fulfilled? Why is it that he has on many occasions become angry and sad over his creation, to the point of threatening its destruction?

Second off, the scriptures are filled with passages that speak of our freewill, and its importance in our salvation. Below is one of my favorite verses on the matter:

Deuteronomy 30:9-20 The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
The Offer of Life or Death

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[csuguy]

Just giving some examples from scripture that there is a sense in which God is telling the story that He intends to tell, even amidst the disobedience. The overall plan accounts for humanity's evil choices - including God's authority to limit or restrict those evil choices - which gets into what Calvinists mean when they say that "God ordains whatsoever comes to pass."

Oh, I definitely agree with the idea that God is in control. However, Calvinism makes God's Authority their central tenant - and this I think is a mistake. In the first place, love is the single most important thing according to the scriptures, so much so that God is said to be love. This should be our primary lens when interpreting things.

God sets limits, as you say, but Calvinists take this concept to an extreme. There are of course many flavors of Calvinism, and I'm not sure what your particular positions are. However, I've seen Calvinists even go so far as to say that sin is God's will! Talk about blasphemy - and the root of this is their focus on authority before all else. They can't conceive that someone could disobey God's will.

And yet, no Calvinist I've seen has addressed the question: what if it is God's will that we choose? Indeed, there are more than enough scriptures to demonstrate the importance of our own freewill with regards our relation to God and to salvation. I posted a good one above from Deuteronomy 30.

Furthermore, the all important love cannot exist without freewill. For love to exist, the possibility of sin must exist as well - and to the same degree.

 

[Truster]

First off, let me ask you how you address the scripture that says that God desires that all be saved? Is he not powerful enough to make this happen? Is the verse false? Or how do you explain God's desire, and yet an opposing result - that many are not saved? If things simply go according to his will - why isn't his desire fulfilled? Why is it that he has on many occasions become angry and sad over his creation, to the point of threatening its destruction?

Second off, the scriptures are filled with passages that speak of our freewill, and its importance in our salvation. Below is one of my favorite verses on the matter:

I used to guide a man, that was physically blind from birth, into the mountains on weekends. It was easier for me to describe beams of light and landscapes to him than it is to explain Sovereignty, Kingship, decree and the outworking of the eternal will to you.

The explanation of everything has its foundation in four words for a regenerate sinner, "Show me Thy Glory".
Once answered everything that needs to be revealed to the saint is revealed. Without this revelation you are like a blind man stumbling around in the noonday sun.

 

[csuguy]

I used to guide a man, that was physically blind from birth, into the mountains on weekends. It was easier for me to describe beams of light and landscapes to him than it is to explain Sovereignty, Kingship, decree and the outworking of the eternal will to you.

The explanation of everything has its foundation in four words for a regenerate sinner, "Show me Thy Glory".
Once answered everything that needs to be revealed to the saint is revealed. Without this revelation you are like a blind man stumbling around in the noonday sun.

In other words, you can't answer my questions to you or address my counter points - so you hide behind this non-sense that you have reached some level of enlightenment beyond us mere mortals. An old song and dance that many have used throughout time when in a similar position. It's not convincing coming from "enlightened" individuals, and it's not convincing coming from you.

 

[Truster]

In other words, you can't answer my questions to you or address my counter points - so you hide behind this non-sense that you have reached some level of enlightenment beyond us mere mortals. An old song and dance that many have used throughout time when in a similar position. It's not convincing coming from "enlightened" individuals, and it's not convincing coming from you.

More can be known of a man by the questions he asks and the statements he makes than by the answers he gives.

Your questions and the spirit by which you ask does not spiritually motivate me to give you the truth, because you have proven time and time again that truth bounces off your heart of stone like rain off a marble grave stone.

 

[Epoisses]

Oh, I definitely agree with the idea that God is in control. However, Calvinism makes God's Authority their central tenant - and this I think is a mistake. In the first place, love is the single most important thing according to the scriptures, so much so that God is said to be love. This should be our primary lens when interpreting things.

God sets limits, as you say, but Calvinists take this concept to an extreme. There are of course many flavors of Calvinism, and I'm not sure what your particular positions are. However, I've seen Calvinists even go so far as to say that sin is God's will! Talk about blasphemy - and the root of this is their focus on authority before all else. They can't conceive that someone could disobey God's will.

And yet, no Calvinist I've seen has addressed the question: what if it is God's will that we choose? Indeed, there are more than enough scriptures to demonstrate the importance of our own freewill with regards our relation to God and to salvation. I posted a good one above from Deuteronomy 30.

Furthermore, the all important love cannot exist without freewill. For love to exist, the possibility of sin must exist as well - and to the same degree.

I agree with much of your post but freewill is a pitfall that many Christians fall into. The will of man is his ability to make decisions. I can choose A or B or a combination or neither. I can try to make right decisions for the rest of my life but it will never save me. The central Christian tenets of love and faith are not choices. I can't choose to love God supremely and my neighbor as myself. I can't choose to have faith in Christ. Often our experience is where God is trying to teach us this and when we finally realize it then he gives us genuine faith and love.

 

[Epoisses]

Those that the Almighty ordained to repentance do repent.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of YAH VEH: and as many as were ordained to eternal life trusted.​

God has ordained for you to get a life, drink a beer and have some fun. Do you drink beer or is that too common for you?

 

[Truster]

I don't need alcohol and don't desire what you call fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[csuguy]

I agree with much of your post but freewill is a pitfall that many Christians fall into. The will of man is his ability to make decisions. I can choose A or B or a combination or neither. I can try to make right decisions for the rest of my life but it will never save me. The central Christian tenets of love and faith are not choices. I can't choose to love God supremely and my neighbor as myself. I can't choose to have faith in Christ. Often our experience is where God is trying to teach us this and when we finally realize it then he gives us genuine faith and love.

Oh, but that's just it - love very much is a choice. Note that I am speaking of love as used in the scriptures (there are multiple connotations, the Greeks even had multiple words for it). The love of scripture is not an emotion - it is something you do. Hence we are commandedto Love God and to love our neighbors - even as Christ has loved us. Indeed, these are the primary commandments upon which all others are rooted.

When Christ wanted to clarify the meaning of the commandment of loving your neighbor, he gave the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37). First a Priest and then a Levite pass by a man on the road who has been stripped, beaten, and left to die on the side of the road. Then a Samaritan - who generally did not get along well with the Jews - comes across the man and helps him. He gets him room and board while he recovers, and pays for all of his expenses from his own pocket. Jesus declared that this Samaritan man, his actions, embody the principles of what the commandment means when it speaks of loving your neighbor - versus the injured mans fellow Jews who left him to die.

Indeed, the scriptures are filled with passages that describe what it means to love - and it comes down to acting out of concern for the well-being of others, especially at personal expense. Jesus teaches us that the greatest act of the love is to lay down one's life for others.

Even faith, biblically understood, is rooted in freewill. Not to say that you can simply choose to understand and believe the right things. However, when scripture speaks of faith, it simultaneously and implicitly also speaks of acting accordingly. This is why in James 2, he says that faith without works is dead. Your beliefs have no meaning and and cannot save you if you do not act according to that faith. Jesus likewise gives the parable of the house on the sand versus the rock. Those who hear and obey build on the rock and are preserved. Those who hear and then ignore what they were told go and build on sand and perish. And there are many other such verses on the matter.

I posted it above, but I will re-post this passage due to its high prevalence to this discussion. Note how the below passage says that the commandments (including to love) are completely within our ability to understand and carry out. It is our choice, and we are exhorted to do it.

Deuteronomy 30:9-20 The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
The Offer of Life or Death

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Charles94]

Oh, I definitely agree with the idea that God is in control.

Believing that God has authority to judge is not the same as believing that He is in control.

In the first place, love is the single most important thing according to the scriptures, so much so that God is said to be love. This should be our primary lens when interpreting things.

Whose definition of love are we using? Yours? The guy who thinks God would not be loving to create someone knowing that they will end up in Hell? The guy who thinks God would not be loving to judge people for failing to perfectly keep the law, as no one is perfect? The guy who thinks God would not be loving to create any sort of Hell, as annihilation seems nicer?

Calvinists believe that the Bible sets the only valid definition of “love.” And that definition won't necessarily square with your natural expectations or humanistic definition of love.

However, I've seen Calvinists even go so far as to say that sin is God's will! Talk about blasphemy - and the root of this is their focus on authority before all else. They can't conceive that someone could disobey God's will.

There are different meanings for God's will. Take some of the verses I posted:

Samson was disobeying God's will to marry only within God's people to avoid being led astray by foreign gods. He was disobeying his parents and acting lustfully and unwisely. His parents were right from a moral standpoint – which is why the Spirit moves the author to clarify that God is still accomplishing what He intends.

Isa53:10Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him... It doesn't mean it made God giddy to ordain the suffering of His Son, but it does mean that it was His will for the story to play out that way. The Jewish leadership was responsible to obey God's commands to judge justly and condemn perjury that convicts the innocent – that is God's moral will. But He intended that His Son be numbered among the transgressors and put to death by wicked men – that was His sovereign will.

there are more than enough scriptures to demonstrate the importance of our own freewill with regards our relation to God and to salvation. I posted a good one above from Deuteronomy 30.

You confuse commands that demand a responsibility to obey with the correspondent ability to obey:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...at-his-Son-is-a-failure&p=5040121#post5040121

Good choice to start your quote that far into the chapter, though. Had you started with v1, it would have been clear that their future disobedience (being driven from a land which they had yet to enter) was a stone-cold lock.

Deut30:1 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God drives you...

Furthermore, the all important love cannot exist without freewill. For love to exist, the possibility of sin must exist as well - and to the same degree.

Where did you get this gem? I can't help but notice there's not a scripture reference. “Chicken Soup for the Soul” or some similar authority?

There will be no sin in Heaven (1 John 3:2; Rev21:27). There will be love in Heaven. You might need to pull another fortune cookie off the buffet...

First off, let me ask you how you address the scripture that says that God desires that all be saved?

Calvinists have been addressing this stuff for hundreds of years, so why not? Here is some more:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...uot-Predestination-quot&p=5056755#post5056755

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...t-WORLD-quot&p=5035486&viewfull=1#post5035486

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...at-his-Son-is-a-failure&p=5043480#post5043480

And yet, no Calvinist I've seen has addressed the question: what if it is God's will that we choose?

If the Bible taught that man has free will, Calvinists would happily give up that systematic view of the Bible and take all the credit that would be rightfully ours. But the Bible speaks of a God who has to draw His people to Himself because no one seeks Him and everyone turns and goes their own way. God's choice is ultimately foundational:

1Cor1:26-30 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus...

 

[genuineoriginal]

Calvinists have been addressing this stuff for hundreds of years, so why not?

Calvinists have been wrong about "this stuff" for hundreds of years.
They strayed off the path to the left.

Catholics have been wrong about this stuff for over a thousand years.
They strayed off the path to the right.

The true path is found in the middle.

 

[Nick M]

Consider the many people's that God has destroyed on account of sin - even threatening to destroy the Israelite's due to the Golden Calph. Yet Moses interceded with God on their behalf and preserved them - though that generation was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. And due to this, God changed how the Priests were selected. Before the first son of every family was to be a Priest. After this incident, we got the Levitical Priesthood.

Welcome to the open view.

 

[Epoisses]

Oh, but that's just it - love very much is a choice. Note that I am speaking of love as used in the scriptures (there are multiple connotations, the Greeks even had multiple words for it). The love of scripture is not an emotion - it is something you do. Hence we are commandedto Love God and to love our neighbors - even as Christ has loved us. Indeed, these are the primary commandments upon which all others are rooted.

When Christ wanted to clarify the meaning of the commandment of loving your neighbor, he gave the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37). First a Priest and then a Levite pass by a man on the road who has been stripped, beaten, and left to die on the side of the road. Then a Samaritan - who generally did not get along well with the Jews - comes across the man and helps him. He gets him room and board while he recovers, and pays for all of his expenses from his own pocket. Jesus declared that this Samaritan man, his actions, embody the principles of what the commandment means when it speaks of loving your neighbor - versus the injured mans fellow Jews who left him to die.

Indeed, the scriptures are filled with passages that describe what it means to love - and it comes down to acting out of concern for the well-being of others, especially at personal expense. Jesus teaches us that the greatest act of the love is to lay down one's life for others.

Even faith, biblically understood, is rooted in freewill. Not to say that you can simply choose to understand and believe the right things. However, when scripture speaks of faith, it simultaneously and implicitly also speaks of acting accordingly. This is why in James 2, he says that faith without works is dead. Your beliefs have no meaning and and cannot save you if you do not act according to that faith. Jesus likewise gives the parable of the house on the sand versus the rock. Those who hear and obey build on the rock and are preserved. Those who hear and then ignore what they were told go and build on sand and perish. And there are many other such verses on the matter.

I posted it above, but I will re-post this passage due to its high prevalence to this discussion. Note how the below passage says that the commandments (including to love) are completely within our ability to understand and carry out. It is our choice, and we are exhorted to do it.

Human love may be a choice where you force yourself to love the unlovely but God's love is not like this. It's helpful to see God's love as a blend of compassion, goodness, graciousness, patience, forgiveness etc. You can't choose or generate these qualities on your best day.

 

[Charles94]

Consider the many people's that God has destroyed on account of sin - even threatening to destroy the Israelite's due to the Golden Calph. Yet Moses interceded with God on their behalf and preserved them...

When people see a grown man "wrestling" with his tiny child and see the tiny child climb on his chest as if he is winning their wrestling match, most adults can correctly figure that the grown man is playfully allowing the child to take the upper hand. But there are a few like you, I suppose...eventually, as you mature, most of you catch on that not everything should be taken at face value.

I suppose you think that if God “struggled” when wrestling with Jacob, that He wouldn't stand much of a chance against a modern defensive tackle?

It is a little bewildering that you claim to be so deeply offended by the Calvinist teachings about God, yet you take Exod32 at face value that the God of Israel, who declares the end from the beginning and accomplishes all that He intends (Isa46:10; Eph1:11) is really more like a hot-headed adolescent who desperately needs humans like Moses to help Him calm down and think about the potential consequences of His actions?

Sounds like your minor deity never saw that day coming, but King David's God would have.

Psa139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them...

Welcome to the open view.

It used to be known as simply the “ungodly” view, but “openness” makes for better marketing, I guess. It does put you in some problematic company from a scriptural standpoint.

Psa73:11-12 And they say, “How does God know? And is there knowledge in the Most High?”
Behold, these are the ungodly...

 

[csuguy]

Human love may be a choice where you force yourself to love the unlovely but God's love is not like this. It's helpful to see God's love as a blend of compassion, goodness, graciousness, patience, forgiveness etc. You can't choose or generate these qualities on your best day.

I never asserted that human love is something you "force" yourself to do; but it is something you choose to do, because (presumably) you value others. At times it can require more strength of will than at other times, for certainly the more that you must sacrifice the less appealing a course of action becomes. Nevertheless, we are called to sacrifice everything and follow Christ. There's a reason its called the narrow path - and not the broad easy path.

When Christ died on the cross - this was something he forced himself to do; not something that just flowed subconsciously through him. Hence he sweat blood - a condition that arises from an enormous amount of stress. That is why he prayed earnestly about the matter, even asking, if possible, that this cup be taken from him - though he valued God's will and us more than for himself, and so endured. Indeed, Christ needed to be tested - even being tempted directly by Satan - for his death to have meaning. As such, he makes it clear that no one has taken his life - but rather, he freely gave it, and freely takes it back.

Furthermore, to reference Deut 30 once more, love is fully within our power to comprehend and carry out.