Has Anyone Changed Their Mind?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

There are a "minority" of posters, on TOL who believe in the dispensational
approach to the Scriptures. If you read and study the Pauline Epistles (Romans
through Philemon) you'll see why Paul teaches it. It happens to be the truth.

Paul speaks of, The Dispensation of Grace. A time we're living in today. Faith
in Christ's death and resurrection are crucial to understanding God's Grace
towards mankind.

 

[tetelestai]

Just curious if an one here has ever actually changed their belief due to a discussion or debate on TOL.

Yes, me.

I was a Dispensationalist for about my first four years on TOL.

In fact I was a Dispensationalist for 25 years before I dropped it like a bag of dirt.

It all started when no Dispensationalist could tell me who the other sheep where that Jesus said would hear His voice and become one flock with one shepherd.

So, it was TOL that helped me see what a false teaching Dispensationalism is, and I am very grateful that I am no longer a follower of John Nelson Darby like all Dispensationalists are.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What do you define as works?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Prove yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.

Proving yourself certainly sounds like works. Also do no evil sounds like not sinning or following God's instructions.

2 Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.

Once one has been sealed, indwelt, and baptized (not of water)
into the Body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit, they receive:

1) God's mercy.
2) God's Forgiveness.
3) The Righteousness of Christ.
4) Eternal life that cannot be lost.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you believe people were saved by works or faith plus works before Christ died on the cross physically?

Saved from their enemies as the Jews were when they obeyed the Lord? Or perhaps those who "endure"? Or "they that have done good" unto the resurrection of life? What of these people?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

 

[glorydaz]

What do you define as works?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Prove yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.

Proving yourself certainly sounds like works. Also do no evil sounds like not sinning or following God's instructions.

2 Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.

You ever heard of hay, wood and stubble? It's a question of rewards and loss of rewards. "He himself shall be saved."

1 Cor. 3:11-15
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

 

[achduke]

Once one has been sealed, indwelt, and baptized (not of water)
into the Body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit, they receive:

1) God's mercy.
2) God's Forgiveness.
3) The Righteousness of Christ.
4) Eternal life that cannot be lost.

Colossians 4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.

Philemon 1:23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow laborers.

How about Demas, a fellow a laborer to Paul. Did he lose his salvation? He seems to have upset Paul And loved the World which is against Christ.

2 Timothy 4:10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica-- Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

These so-called dispensations are meaningless because anyone who has ever been saved since Adam was saved by faith alone. Period. That's what the Bible teaches.

The Jews, since Moses delivered the Ten Commandments were
under the Law. Which included works. Abraham was a Gentile
and lived by faith. Under the Grace Gospel, Gentiles are saved
by faith alone. So, when you think of it, "Gentiles" were always
under faith alone.

 

[Desert Reign]

Do you believe people were saved by works or faith plus works before Christ died on the cross physically?

People who were righteous before God before the ministry of Christ were saved, like we all are, by faith in Christ. Except that before Christ, they were saved in anticipation of Christ's sacrifice. The truth that Christ alone saves us is universal across time and place.

Jesus himself said that if they believed in Moses they would also believe in him. So a true, righteous belief in Moses is exactly the same thing in God's eyes as belief in Christ himself.

Paul alludes to this same issue when he says in Romans 5:6 that Christ died for the ungodly at the appointed time.

Obviously some of Paul’s hearers and certainly we ourselves didn’t even exist at the time Christ died so we can’t have been helpless or anything at all when he died. Paul’s use of ‘at the appointed time’ is necessary here to clarify that whoever we are, in whatever age we place our trust in Christ, Christ still died for us. He didn’t just die for those who at the time he died were ungodly. Otherwise, ‘Christ died for us while we were still helpless’ sounds like Christ has somehow died again for us in particular. Christ doesn’t keep on dying as if he were some kind of metaphysical mystical contortionist or a mere idea of dying or of sacrifice but he died just once, as a real man, in a real place.

If you need to be literal about your interpretation of scripture or legalistic then this scripture defeats you because on a literal reading of it Christ only died for those who at the time of his death were ungodly. This then requires you to invent yet another dispensation to add to the ones you already have. You would need to distinguish between those who were alive when Christ died and everyone else, which is of course preposterous.

I'm not suggesting that you yourself are dispensationalist. I am using the word 'you' in the general meaning. But all this talk of 'works or works plus faith' completely misses the point.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Colossians 4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.

Philemon 1:23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow laborers.

How about Demas, a fellow a laborer to Paul. Did he lose his salvation? He seems to have upset Paul And loved the World which is against Christ.

2 Timothy 4:10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica-- Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

What's your question?

 

[achduke]

What's your question?

Did Demas lose his salvation?

 

[Squeaky]

These so-called dispensations are meaningless because anyone who has ever been saved since Adam was saved by faith alone. Period. That's what the Bible teaches.

I said
That is not what the bible teaches. What the bible teaches is that faith without works is dead. Even Abraham had to prove his faith with works. By offering up his son.

1 Cor 13:2
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
(NKJ)


James 2:17-18
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(NKJ)

James 2:21-24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
(NKJ)

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(NKJ)

 

[achduke]

You ever heard of hay, wood and stubble? It's a question of rewards and loss of rewards. "He himself shall be saved."

1 Cor. 3:11-15
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

In reading 1 corinthians 3:11-15 it appears more about ones theology then actual works like not sinning or following the commands of God.

For instance, if I believe in a preterists point of view and it is not true then this belief will be burned away and leave the truth behind.

Btw,

I am not a preterist.

 

[Nick M]

Just curious if an one here has ever actually changed their belief due to a discussion or debate on TOL.

Yes. The Bible says what it says, therefore my position was wrong.

 

[glorydaz]

In reading 1 corinthians 3:11-15 it appears more about ones theology then actual works like not sinning or following the commands of God.

For instance, if I believe in a preterists point of view and it is not true then this belief will be burned away and leave the truth behind.

Btw,

I am not a preterist.

Nonsense. Read the text again.

 

[Daniel1611]

The Jews, since Moses delivered the Ten Commandments were
under the Law. Which included works. Abraham was a Gentile
and lived by faith. Under the Grace Gospel, Gentiles are saved
by faith alone. So, when you think of it, "Gentiles" were always
under faith alone.

Everyone has always been under faith alone. How did so many people like David and Solomon do wicked things but still go to heaven? Because they believed in the LORD

 

[patrick jane]

But it isn't. In my regular life, I have known many Christians and attended a few different churches and never heard anyone preaching dispensationalism. Outside of a few denominations that have been promoting it since it was invented in the 1800's, it seems to exist heavily online and in theological books.

Ive read about the 7 dispensations and how people used to be saved by works, but it isn't in the Bible anywhere. I've talked about it for so long with so many dispensationalist, none of whom seem to agree and many if whom are deceptive about their doctrine, and I literally can't even stand so many threads going back to this topic.

View attachment 19999

 

[Squeaky]

Everyone has always been under faith alone. How did so many people like David and Solomon do wicked things but still go to heaven? Because they believed in the LORD

I said
No one before Jesus went to heaven yet.

John 3:13
13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
(NKJ)

 

[daqq]

People who were righteous before God before the ministry of Christ were saved, like we all are, by faith in Christ. Except that before Christ, they were saved in anticipation of Christ's sacrifice. The truth that Christ alone saves us is universal across time and place.

Jesus himself said that if they believed in Moses they would also believe in him. So a true, righteous belief in Moses is exactly the same thing in God's eyes as belief in Christ himself.

Paul alludes to this same issue when he says in Romans 5:6 that Christ died for the ungodly at the appointed time.

Obviously some of Paul’s hearers and certainly we ourselves didn’t even exist at the time Christ died so we can’t have been helpless or anything at all when he died. Paul’s use of ‘at the appointed time’ is necessary here to clarify that whoever we are, in whatever age we place our trust in Christ, Christ still died for us. He didn’t just die for those who at the time he died were ungodly. Otherwise, ‘Christ died for us while we were still helpless’ sounds like Christ has somehow died again for us in particular. Christ doesn’t keep on dying as if he were some kind of metaphysical mystical contortionist or a mere idea of dying or of sacrifice but he died just once, as a real man, in a real place.

If you need to be literal about your interpretation of scripture or legalistic then this scripture defeats you because on a literal reading of it Christ only died for those who at the time of his death were ungodly. This then requires you to invent yet another dispensation to add to the ones you already have. You would need to distinguish between those who were alive when Christ died and everyone else, which is of course preposterous.

I'm not suggesting that you yourself are dispensationalist. I am using the word 'you' in the general meaning. But all this talk of 'works or works plus faith' completely misses the point.

:thumb: Excellent post!

 

[Zeke]

People who were righteous before God before the ministry of Christ were saved, like we all are, by faith in Christ. Except that before Christ, they were saved in anticipation of Christ's sacrifice. The truth that Christ alone saves us is universal across time and place.

Jesus himself said that if they believed in Moses they would also believe in him. So a true, righteous belief in Moses is exactly the same thing in God's eyes as belief in Christ himself.

Paul alludes to this same issue when he says in Romans 5:6 that Christ died for the ungodly at the appointed time.

Obviously some of Paul’s hearers and certainly we ourselves didn’t even exist at the time Christ died so we can’t have been helpless or anything at all when he died. Paul’s use of ‘at the appointed time’ is necessary here to clarify that whoever we are, in whatever age we place our trust in Christ, Christ still died for us. He didn’t just die for those who at the time he died were ungodly. Otherwise, ‘Christ died for us while we were still helpless’ sounds like Christ has somehow died again for us in particular. Christ doesn’t keep on dying as if he were some kind of metaphysical mystical contortionist or a mere idea of dying or of sacrifice but he died just once, as a real man, in a real place.

If you need to be literal about your interpretation of scripture or legalistic then this scripture defeats you because on a literal reading of it Christ only died for those who at the time of his death were ungodly. This then requires you to invent yet another dispensation to add to the ones you already have. You would need to distinguish between those who were alive when Christ died and everyone else, which is of course preposterous.

I'm not suggesting that you yourself are dispensationalist. I am using the word 'you' in the general meaning. But all this talk of 'works or works plus faith' completely misses the point.

No, the frame work of the message was always the same, Christ being a motif of the second born of the spirit in man and was never a historic figure.

Galatians shows the the first born of the flesh is a bond servants of the earthly elements Galatians 4:24 born of a woman of flesh Matt 11:11, the second born from above is born of the free woman of the spirit a virgin birth wrongly applied to the woman of flesh Galatians 4:26.

 

[Interplanner]

Zeke,
are you saying Christ was not a historic figure?

your Galatians paragraph needs editing, commas, etc. It is not clear at all what you are saying. Be sure to have your column-chart of Gal 4B handy so that things are what Paul said they were.