ECT Holy City? What Holy City???

resodko

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Split off from Tambora's Opened graves thread


Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
(52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

my question regards the use of "the holy city"

clearly a reference to Jerusalem

is Jerusalem still "the holy city"?

if not, when did it stop being "the holy city"?
 

musterion

Well-known member
I don't think it still is. It stopped being the holy city when God gave up on Israel, which happened by Acts 28. From that point on, it was essentially just another Gentile city and the Jews were no different than everyone who'd been scattered at the tower of Babel.

AD 70 and the destruction of the Temple was just icing on the cake. The cake itself was already baked.
 

resodko

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I don't think it still is. It stopped being the holy city when God gave up on Israel, which happened by Acts 28...


Acts 28:1 And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.

2 And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold.

3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.

4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.

5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

7 In the same quarters were possessions of the chief man of the island, whose name was Publius; who received us, and lodged us three days courteously.

8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

10 Who also honoured us with many honours; and when we departed, they laded us with such things as were necessary.

11 And after three months we departed in a ship of Alexandria, which had wintered in the isle, whose sign was Castor and Pollux.

12 And landing at Syracuse, we tarried there three days.

13 And from thence we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium: and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli:

14 Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome.

15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.

17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.

19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.

20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.

22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.


God gave up on Israel?
 

musterion

Well-known member
As a covenant-claiming nation, yes. Someday, that will change. But for now, lo ammi. No one is His outside of or apart from Christ.
 

musterion

Well-known member
ok, i see

but didn't that happen with Christ's resurrection?

:think: or His ministry?

Some say God was done with Israel as symbolized by the ripping of the curtain. I disagree - though no one yet knew it, with the Blood shed, the Temple was now useless. Besides which, Israel was given ample opportunity to repent afterwards, most notably at Pentecost (but didn't).
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Some say God was done with Israel as symbolized by the ripping of the curtain. I disagree - though no one yet knew it, with the Blood shed, the Temple was now useless. Besides which, Israel was given ample opportunity to repent afterwards, most notably at Pentecost (but didn't).

God cast the nation of Israel away, hundreds of years before the Incarnation of Christ.

The rending of the Temple Curtain was the end of Temple worship according to ordinances that previously only pointed to Christ's sacrifice.

Once His blood was shed for sins, there was no purpose left for Temple worship, and never will Temple worship be restored, for the Lamb of God lives as High Priest in heaven forever. I John 1:5-2:2
 

Nang

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Split off from Tambora's Opened graves thread




my question regards the use of "the holy city"

clearly a reference to Jerusalem

is Jerusalem still "the holy city"?

if not, when did it stop being "the holy city"?


A direct answer to your question is found in Galatians 4:21-31.

There is an earthly Jerusalem, which now is, which is unholy for it is overrun with wicked men . . and there is the promise of the Holy City; the New Jerusalem that is to come for the children of promise. Revelation 20:1-8
 

rainee

New member
In my humble opinion "the holy city" is a spiritual term. Meaning the Holy Spirit likes it. When the Lord was tempted wasn't this term used?
I think if God likes that term even when the Lord was about to begin His ministry and then again here at His resurrection then prophetically that term has weight no matter what.
 

resodko

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Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


so when did Jerusalem stop being "the holy city"?
 

rainee

New member
God cast the nation of Israel away, hundreds of years before the Incarnation of Christ.

The rending of the Temple Curtain was the end of Temple worship according to ordinances that previously only pointed to Christ's sacrifice.

Once His blood was shed for sins, there was no purpose left for Temple worship, and never will Temple worship be restored, for the Lamb of God lives as High Priest in heaven forever. I John 1:5-2:2

I am not sure of the dates or the times but in some ways God has seemingly cast Israel away many times. But like Paul He appears to be relentlessly going back on that.

Paul was always trying to tell the Jews he was finished with them but I am not sure we have any evidence that he stuck with that threat.

Whoever wrote Hebrews was obviously close to Paul and taught by him, for example, and though Gentiles can't stay out of it - it really is to Jews.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
so when did Jerusalem stop being "the holy city"?

I believe it is when the Temple worship and animal sacrifices ceased.

Predicted in Daniel 9:26-27.

The Jerusalem that now is, is "desolate."

"Holy" means to be set apart from the carnal, unbelieving world, and Jerusalem was a city set apart by God, from all other cities and nations and religions, to witness to the world, through the Temple ordinances, the promise of a future Messiah.

Once those promises were fulfilled in Christ, the Temple was wrecked; both by the events that occurred when Christ died on the cross, and then later in 70 a.d. when the city was overrun by its enemies.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I am not sure of the dates or the times but in some ways God has seemingly cast Israel away many times. But like Paul He appears to be relentlessly going back on that.

Paul was always trying to tell the Jews he was finished with them but I am not sure we have any evidence that he stuck with that threat.

Whoever wrote Hebrews was obviously close to Paul and taught by him, for example, and though Gentiles can't stay out of it - it really is to Jews.

God divorced the nation of Israel for her adulteries, and cast her aside for hundreds of years; left bereft of any prophets. Only a remnant of Jews have been saved since and to this day, according to Election and grace. Romans 11:5

So the casting away is not total. God still shows mercy to the particular few, who are given faith in Christ.
 

rainee

New member
so when did Jerusalem stop being "the holy city"?

You can use the allegory that is using Sarah (whose name was changed to mean what?) and Hagar all you want to, Res.

No matter what do not remember that Paul wants to make Jews jealous.
I mean it - strike that from your memory. Forget. That way we can be as clueless as some religious leaders were in Israel when the Lord came. It's not hard to forget or not believe Scripture - as they demonstrated, yes?
 

oatmeal

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Split off from Tambora's Opened graves thread




my question regards the use of "the holy city"

clearly a reference to Jerusalem

is Jerusalem still "the holy city"?

if not, when did it stop being "the holy city"?

A city is holy because of the believers in it.

If there are no believers in it, it not holy, it is just another city.

As you might say, it is holy only to the degree and proportion that truth prevails in it.

Sodom and Gomorrah were slated to get what it deserved, but not until Lot left
 

resodko

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A city is holy because of the believers in it.

in the context of matthew 27, this doesn't scan

the term used was "the holy city", not "a holy city"

clearly, at the time of Jesus' resurrection, Jerusalem was the holy city




my question is when did it cease to be the holy city?
 

rainee

New member
God divorced the nation of Israel for her adulteries, and cast her aside for hundreds of years; left bereft of any prophets. Only a remnant of Jews have been saved since and to this day, according to Election and grace. Romans 11:5

So the casting away is not total. God still shows mercy to the particular few, who are given faith in Christ.

I agree with what you are saying, Nang. But I fear we may not agree with what it means.

You know what God did to the baby killing, blood drinking, idol worshiping people, don't you? He sent Paul to Rome.

Now baby killing or blood drinking may not seem bad in the US anymore.
And idol worship may have changed.

But what ever you and I say about Israel I pray we remember what Paul has said about us.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I agree with what you are saying, Nang. But I fear we may not agree with what it means.

You know what God did to the baby killing, blood drinking, idol worshiping people, don't you? He sent Paul to Rome.

Now baby killing or blood drinking may not seem bad in the US anymore.
And idol worship may have changed.

But what ever you and I say about Israel I pray we remember what Paul has said about us.

Yes, the N.T. visible churches are given warning that their spiritual adulteries and hypocrisies will be dealt with, in like manner as God dealt with unfaithful Israel.

That is the significance of the Olive Tree metaphor used in Romans 11:15-25
 

resodko

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in the context of matthew 27, this doesn't scan

the term used was "the holy city", not "a holy city"

clearly, at the time of Jesus' resurrection, Jerusalem was the holy city




my question is when did it cease to be the holy city?


anybody?


other than nang (thank you nang)
 
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