ECT If Christ's work on the Cross is finished, why this scripture?

Bright Raven

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Why not believe this one;

John 19:30 Modern English Version (MEV)

30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished.” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
republicanchick said:
http://standrewparish.blogspot.com/2008/10/what-is-lacking-in-afflictions-of.html

Colossians 1:24

speaks of us sinners making up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ



++​
Click to expand...

What is lacking is not Christ's own suffering, but that which is to be fulfilled in the bodies of His servants.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:11-18

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:8-14

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13

Christ's work is finished. But for us to be as He is in the earth (I John 4:17), we must share in His suffering. Not suffering for the sake of suffering, but suffering for the sake of the Kingdom of God. For it is only through much tribulation that one enters the Kingdom of God.
 
D

DAN P

Well-known member
R

republicanchick

New member
Bright Raven said:
Why not believe this one;

John 19:30 Modern English Version (MEV)

30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished.” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
Click to expand...

Did Jesus comprehensively define "It"?

Did he define "finished"

Is this ALL JEsus said??

Please

you people who go by the bible alone (and your own human interpretation thereof, at that..) will eventually end up throwing that out as well (as the church)



+++
 
R

republicanchick

New member
DAN P said:
Hi and nikolai 42 and BR cleaned your small question and it is hard for non-bibical students to understan John 19:30 where " it is finished " is in the Perfect Tense , Passive Voice and believe that Indicative Mood of John 19:30 means a FACT !!:deadhorse:

DAN P
Click to expand...

don't have one half a clue what u r saying

u probably don't either



___
 
R

republicanchick

New member
nikolai_42 said:
Christ's work is finished. But for us to be as He is in the earth (I John 4:17), we must share in His suffering. Not suffering for the sake of suffering, but suffering for the sake of the Kingdom of God. For it is only through much tribulation that one enters the Kingdom of God.
Click to expand...

hey, you are sounding like a Catholic here... Some Catholics don't even get this ..

congrats

anyone who does not suffer cannot call himself a Christian. If you give up your possessions b/c Jesus said to (all the possessions you do not require for your basic needs, that is), people will look down their noses @ you b/c you are "poor"

If you go around spoutating about Jesus this and Jesus that, ditto...

They will look into your past (if they can) and say such things as

Who are YOU to preach, you did this and that... Never mind that you did (this/that) whne you were young (ie clueless), it will b held against you just b/c you are an outspoken Christian...


etc... etc...

but we Catholics offer
up our sufferings in expiation of said past sins.. to wash off the residual bad effects of such sins on our soul. We also offer up our sufferings for unrepentant sinners, that they will repent..



+++



____

 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
republicanchick said:
Did Jesus comprehensively define "It"?

Did he define "finished"

Is this ALL JEsus said??

Please

you people who go by the bible alone (and your own human interpretation thereof, at that..) will eventually end up throwing that out as well (as the church)



+++
Click to expand...
People who do not go to the bible for there interpretation are the ones who are in trouble. The work that the Father gave him was finished.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Bright Raven said:
People who do not go to the bible for there interpretation are the ones who are in trouble. The work that the Father gave him was finished.
Click to expand...

His 'mission' not yet complete; the work given him of the Father, was mainly over at the time He was translated on the mount. His translation was proof that it was.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
republicanchick said:


hey, you are sounding like a Catholic here... Some Catholics don't even get this ..

congrats

anyone who does not suffer cannot call himself a Christian. If you give up your possessions b/c Jesus said to (all the possessions you do not require for your basic needs, that is), people will look down their noses @ you b/c you are "poor"

If you go around spoutating about Jesus this and Jesus that, ditto...

They will look into your past (if they can) and say such things as

Who are YOU to preach, you did this and that... Never mind that you did (this/that) whne you were young (ie clueless), it will b held against you just b/c you are an outspoken Christian...


etc... etc...

but we Catholics offer
up our sufferings in expiation of said past sins.. to wash off the residual bad effects of such sins on our soul. We also offer up our sufferings for unrepentant sinners, that they will repent..



+++



____
Click to expand...

The nature of our suffering is not expiatory any more than burning your hand is expiation for having put your hand on a hot stove. We are told that those that suffer in the flesh have ceased from sin - that they may live the rest of their days following the will of God rather than their lusts. In other words, suffering produces character and puts to death those inclinations to follow our own lusts.

So if we try to make ourselves suffer, we can't do it. Entering the kingdom through much tribulation means that as we walk in Christ, He will allow us to endure things that try us and refine us (if in Him). We can't do that ourselves. To try and do so is simply to bow to pride. And to consider our suffering expiation is to consider Christ's sacrifice incomplete.
 
R

republicanchick

New member
Bright Raven said:
People who do not go to the bible for there interpretation are the ones who are in trouble. The work that the Father gave him was finished.
Click to expand...

you have no idea what "people who do not go to t he bible" will encounter or suffer or whatever.. quit talking like you know everyone

There are ways other than the bible to be close to Jesus.. The Holy Mass is the ultimate way of being with Him


__
 
R

republicanchick

New member
nikolai_42 said:
The nature of our suffering is not expiatory any more than burning your hand is expiation for having put your hand on a hot stove. We are told that those that suffer in the flesh have ceased from sin - that they may live the rest of their days following the will of God rather than their lusts. In other words, suffering produces character and puts to death those inclinations to follow our own lusts.

So if we try to make ourselves suffer, we can't do it. Entering the kingdom through much tribulation means that as we walk in Christ, He will allow us to endure things that try us and refine us (if in Him). We can't do that ourselves. To try and do so is simply to bow to pride. And to consider our suffering expiation is to consider Christ's sacrifice incomplete.
Click to expand...

i have no idea who you are speaking to, as i said none of the things u imply i said..

but that is typical of noncatholics/anticahtolics. They read what is not there... and answer to the straw man they think they see, while ignoring what is really there


++
___
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
republicanchick said:
i have no idea who you are speaking to, as i said none of the things u imply i said..

but that is typical of noncatholics/anticahtolics. They read what is not there... and answer to the straw man they think they see, while ignoring what is really there


++
___
Click to expand...

You said this :

republicanchick said:
but we Catholics offer
up our sufferings in expiation of said past sins.. to wash off the residual bad effects of such sins on our soul. We also offer up our sufferings for unrepentant sinners, that they will repent..
Click to expand...

Expiation is defined thusly :

Merriam-Webster said:
expiation

noun ex·pi·a·tion \ˌek-spē-ˈā-shən\

1: the act of making atonement
2: the means by which atonement is made
Click to expand...

So unless you weren't being serious, my comments are appropriate. Either Christ's sacrifice was sufficient or it was not. His sufferings are filled up in us - not to atone for sin, but to build character and maturity - to make us into the likeness of Christ. It isn't the suffering itself, however, that does this.

So when you said "...we Catholics offer up our sufferings..." it is a distinct sort of suffering that God blesses - rather than God bringing you through something that does cause pain. The pain doesn't cause perfection - rather the maturing process causes the pain. So when Jesus said that we must, through much tribulation, enter the Kingdom He wasn't saying that tribulation brings us into the Kingdom, but that what we go through is trying and what we go through produces the fruit He is after. So we don't offer that up - He brings us to (and through) it.

There's a world of difference.
 
R

republicanchick

New member
nikolai_42 said:
You said this :



Expiation is defined thusly :



So unless you weren't being serious, my comments are appropriate. Either Christ's sacrifice was sufficient or it was not. ce.
Click to expand...

that is the stuff u have been taught

it has nothing to do with Christ's sacrifice being sufficient. It has to do with you APPLYING that (His sacrifice) to your heart and body and mind and soul.

Apply it today, erase it tomorrow... such is being human...

__


___
 
R

republicanchick

New member
nikolai_42 said:
So when you said "...we Catholics offer up our sufferings..." it is a distinct sort of suffering that God blesses - rather than God bringing you through something that does cause pain. The pain doesn't cause perfection - rather the maturing process causes the pain. So when Jesus said that we must, through much tribulation, enter the Kingdom He wasn't saying that tribulation brings us into the Kingdom, but that what we go through is trying and what we go through produces the fruit He is after. So we don't offer that up - He brings us to (and through) it.

There's a world of difference.
Click to expand...

i forced myself to wade through this. But you know, i am not going to pretend i get exactly what you are saying. All i know is that you do not understand Catholic teaching on atonemnet and expiation and Purgatory. Yet, like all noncatholics/anticatholics, you think you do understand it.

i do agree that it is not the suffering that expiates, per se... Well, actually, we would assume it is not... but our assumptions are just our human assumptions, eh?

in any case... again, i don't really get your main point


___
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
republicanchick said:
that is the stuff u have been taught

it has nothing to do with Christ's sacrifice being sufficient. It has to do with you APPLYING that (His sacrifice) to your heart and body and mind and soul.

Apply it today, erase it tomorrow... such is being human...

__


___
Click to expand...

And that is exactly what one would expect when a Savior's ability to save is dependent (even if only partially) on the ability of man to stay saved. The hallmark of legalism.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top