ECT Inheritors or Possessors?

[nikolai_42]

Certainly it isn't that cut and dried...but that's the bare bones of my question. Rather, are we more inheritors or are we to be more possessors as those in Christ? Is the thrust of our Christian walk to be what we have been given (e.g. Acts 3:6), have possession of (in Christ, that is) and are to "unpack" (Philippians 2:12)? Or are we - as pilgrims and strangers on this earth (Hebrews 11:13) - spending much of our time simply in preparation for what we shall be (I John 3:2)?

Our walk is, of course, by faith - but is that which we do not see with the natural eye something that we are actually in possession of now and are (in some sense directly related to Philippians 2:12) "developing" or "learning" for use in this realm? Or are we learning to walk as mortals who have an immortal hope but will not take possession of that "hope" (in a real, tangible way) until we are in eternity?

First, I take it as a given that our own works in Christ are not ours originally but God's. So anything done to further the expression of our current possession (whatever you take that to be) is necessarily ultimately of God. Second, this is from our perspective. God's perspective is one of completion - seeing the end from the beginning, the idea of inheritance in eternity must be current. But, as men bound to time, what are we to treat this "treasure in earthen vessels" as? As a gift to be fully unwrapped and largely realized now or one whose real worth can only be expressed in eternity?

And an application. This may seem a nebulous, confusing or even misapplied question. If so, maybe the first part of this post needs to be fleshed out a little more before proceeding. But in the event someone understands what I'm trying to say (and probably failing at), how does this understanding allow us to judge what is trusting in the arm of flesh and what is trusting in the work of God?

To clarify (some, at least)...if one believes that they are possessors now at least as much as inheritors later, then their focus will be on what God has worked into them and working it out at least as much as (and probably more than) a future promise written in scripture. To the bystander, it could look as stark as the difference between trusting in one's feelings vs. trusting in scripture and the promises of God (and it may well be...). But to the "possessor", they see in scripture a promise of present day power and provision for service as well as understanding of God. The "inheritor" is looking more to something unseen, unfelt, even not understood now in anticipation of it redounding to a greater future glory for God and resolution of His eternal plan.

Who is more right (both in assessing trust in God vs. trust in self and in general) and why? (Or does this even make sense...)

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Both, One day atta time.

:juggle:

 

[Totton Linnet]

Certainly it isn't that cut and dried...but that's the bare bones of my question. Rather, are we more inheritors or are we to be more possessors as those in Christ? Is the thrust of our Christian walk to be what we have been given (e.g. Acts 3:6), have possession of (in Christ, that is) and are to "unpack" (Philippians 2:12)? Or are we - as pilgrims and strangers on this earth (Hebrews 11:13) - spending much of our time simply in preparation for what we shall be (I John 3:2)?

Our walk is, of course, by faith - but is that which we do not see with the natural eye something that we are actually in possession of now and are (in some sense directly related to Philippians 2:12) "developing" or "learning" for use in this realm? Or are we learning to walk as mortals who have an immortal hope but will not take possession of that "hope" (in a real, tangible way) until we are in eternity?

First, I take it as a given that our own works in Christ are not ours originally but God's. So anything done to further the expression of our current possession (whatever you take that to be) is necessarily ultimately of God. Second, this is from our perspective. God's perspective is one of completion - seeing the end from the beginning, the idea of inheritance in eternity must be current. But, as men bound to time, what are we to treat this "treasure in earthen vessels" as? As a gift to be fully unwrapped and largely realized now or one whose real worth can only be expressed in eternity?

And an application. This may seem a nebulous, confusing or even misapplied question. If so, maybe the first part of this post needs to be fleshed out a little more before proceeding. But in the event someone understands what I'm trying to say (and probably failing at), how does this understanding allow us to judge what is trusting in the arm of flesh and what is trusting in the work of God?

To clarify (some, at least)...if one believes that they are possessors now at least as much as inheritors later, then their focus will be on what God has worked into them and working it out at least as much as (and probably more than) a future promise written in scripture. To the bystander, it could look as stark as the difference between trusting in one's feelings vs. trusting in scripture and the promises of God (and it may well be...). But to the "possessor", they see in scripture a promise of present day power and provision for service as well as understanding of God. The "inheritor" is looking more to something unseen, unfelt, even not understood now in anticipation of it redounding to a greater future glory for God and resolution of His eternal plan.

Who is more right (both in assessing trust in God vs. trust in self and in general) and why? (Or does this even make sense...)

Are the Jews in the wilderness not a picture of the church? they coulda entered in straight away, but God took them round about because they were not fit for war. But then they had the opportunity but lacked the faith and that generation was turned back to perish in the wilderness.

They did not lose their salvation because they perished in the wilderness, that is a BIG mistake Christians make...but they certainly lost the present enjoyment of their inheritance.

And that is the case with the vast majority of the church.

But listen here, if God is our all in all, our glory and our enjoyment then He is so as much in the wilderness as in the promised land.

We will lose nothing...for when we fail we become sermons for a later generation upon whom the ends of the world has come.

Look again at Josh and Caleb...they did not fail in their faith and yet they had to turn back with the church.....so much for the spiritual Lone Rangers.

 

[nikolai_42]

Both, One day atta time.

:juggle:

To what degree inheritors? To what degree possessors?

If we take the Old Covenant injunction as a type of our New Covenant life (to go in and possess the land), should we read the promised land more as a promise of glory after this mortal life perishes or should we read it more as an entrance into the promises of God and walking therein (here...in this life...now)?

Taking it a step further, what does that say about what we are "fleshing out" in this life? Are we learning to live more with what we have already been given or more to live in a realm where evidence of victory, fulfillment and attainment are both invisible and delayed? Not that there aren't some evidenced advancements and victories, but is that to be the rule or the exception?

 

[nikolai_42]

Are the Jews in the wilderness not a picture of the church? they coulda entered in straight away, but God took them round about because they were not fit for war. But then they had the opportunity but lacked the faith and that generation was turned back to perish in the wilderness.

They did not lose their salvation because they perished in the wilderness, that is a BIG mistake Christians make...but they certainly lost the present enjoyment of their inheritance.

And that is the case with the vast majority of the church.

But listen here, if God is our all in all, our glory and our enjoyment then He is so as much in the wilderness as in the promised land.

We will lose nothing...for when we fail we become sermons for a later generation upon whom the ends of the world has come.

Look again at Josh and Caleb...they did not fail in their faith and yet they had to turn back with the church.....so much for the spiritual Lone Rangers.

Good start! So if I read your response correctly, you see Canaan as representing what we are to inherit in eternity? And, in addition, I would see you as saying that we are more living according to faith so that our hope can be realized in heaven. Not that we don't realize some here, but rather that emphasis is to be future. Am I correct?

What, then, is to be the believer's primary focus in life? To work out what God has worked (Philippians 2:12) in or to work through (using scripture as the guide) what is given in this life - according to faith (i.e. with little apparent victory in this realm) so that we may have that glory revealed in us (Romans 8:18) in the age to come?

This is not going to be answered the same way many questions are - I recognize that. There is - I fully realize - an element of both in the believer's life. But, the way these things are emphasized and lived out determines one's focus. And that focus - in the end - is either going to be more on now (because that is where we are dwelling...now) or on eternity (because that is our terminus). By focusing more on the goal are we missing interim "victories" and understanding that need not be delayed? Or by focusing more on the "now" are we at risk of forfeiting greater glory later because we are too concerned about seeing the end of our faith (or some of it) before we reach Canaan?

Again, I don't have a final answer here either. The question has elements of truth in both answers. But on which side are we to ultimately land? I think there is a difference in approach that is often seen along some denominational lines - and even generational ones. But that's a very broad view.

 

[Cross Reference]

Good start! So if I read your response correctly, you see Canaan as representing what we are to inherit in eternity? And, in addition, I would see you as saying that we are more living according to faith so that our hope can be realized in heaven. Not that we don't realize some here, but rather that emphasis is to be future. Am I correct?

What, then, is to be the believer's primary focus in life? To work out what God has worked (Philippians 2:12) in or to work through (using scripture as the guide) what is given in this life - according to faith (i.e. with little apparent victory in this realm) so that we may have that glory revealed in us (Romans 8:18) in the age to come?

This is not going to be answered the same way many questions are - I recognize that. There is - I fully realize - an element of both in the believer's life. But, the way these things are emphasized and lived out determines one's focus. And that focus - in the end - is either going to be more on now (because that is where we are dwelling...now) or on eternity (because that is our terminus). By focusing more on the goal are we missing interim "victories" and understanding that need not be delayed? Or by focusing more on the "now" are we at risk of forfeiting greater glory later because we are too concerned about seeing the end of our faith (or some of it) before we reach Canaan?

Again, I don't have a final answer here either. The question has elements of truth in both answers. But on which side are we to ultimately land? I think there is a difference in approach that is often seen along some denominational lines - and even generational ones. But that's a very broad view.

Good Thread. "Heavy duty" but good, nevertheless.

What must be considered: What is the purpose of temptation except for a time of proving; for the saint to have revealed to him any area of his life [and the enemy knows which buttons to press] he must work out to purify himself to make ready for the day of the Lord ___ which follows immediately after the temptation.

But listen here, if God is our all in all, our glory and our enjoyment then He is so as much in the wilderness as in the promised land.

But the manifest presence of God was not in either the OT or NT wilderness __ otherwise it would not have been a wilderness experience where man, left to himself must be proven.

 

[nikolai_42]

Hi Nikolai,

I feel a deep tension in my own life. Of course there are great joys in this life as well as trials. Most days I desire to be in the Lord's presence, in heaven. Not in a melancholy, depressed way, but in joyful awaiting the time when I will see Him in His glory.

Not sure if this is what you meant.


CB

Thank you for responding, Cedarbay!

Your answer is solid - and at least a foundation for answering the questions I asked. Practically speaking, if we were all of the same mindset and vision, I suspect most of what we see on forums like this would go away!

Having said that, there are a couple of things I'm after with this thread and one of them is sort of a "high level view". Some spend much time claiming promises, "walking in victory" and have such a focus on the "now" that it risks becoming the be all and end all (if it hasn't already become that). Others who look for the future fulfillment of promises and provisions of God can fall into the trap of dry, dusty, academic faith where everything eventually becomes a mental exercise because there is no expectation of anything of God to be manifested here and now. These are the two extremes and I realize that covers a very small percentage of Christians generally and of those who read these posts, more specifically. But that raises the question of where the balance is.

In addition, my observation is that those who more of the former inclination ("victory now" etc...) tend to place more emphasis on what God has placed in them already. What is working in them. Their walking out of what they believe God has given them. They are looking for an inheritance eternally, but basically it's just the final stop on the road of life in which they are to claim victory (as they understand it) every step of the way. And their pitfall tends to be that unless they see victory (as they define it), it is no victory for them or God. For the inheritors, they tend to place all importance - not on what has been given them, personally - but on the written word. Their guide is their understanding of scripture. God has provided all that is needed for life and Godliness in His Word. This life is a walk of faith in that we don't see the promises given - much like Abraham didn't receive his promise even by the time he died - but that we are to hold to God's Word as revealed in scripture and the specific circumstances of life are less important than our fidelity to that. We may see victories...we may not. But ultimately that is not what we are to be looking for. Their pitfall tends to be that they may overlook immediate victory because they are thinking only about eternity.

Again, these two extremes are used to illustrate a difference and ask what we should be looking to - more immediate fulfillments and a corresponding reliance on what He has given us (i.e. personally - power and understanding) or more of a long view in which we rest simply on what He has given His people (i.e. corporately - the scriptures)? The possessor will say that he is looking to scripture and has many scriptures in support of his claim. The inheritor will say he is looking for God to work - but is willing, rather, for God to do what He will. And he also points to numerous scriptures that speak of persecution, being deserted, troubles, trials etc... through which he must persevere. Claiming victory (externally) is just not mandated. That is looking too much to one's self (the inheritor would say). The possessor might think the inheritor to be too defeatist.

Both claim to look to God.

But if we can all respond with a hearty "Amen" to this scripture, maybe we can have confidence towards God one way or the other :

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:14-15

 

[Livelystone]

Possessors are those who take the kingdom by force....... they are descendants from the Jews who killed the OT prophets and tried to steal their inheritance.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force

Jesus spoke of them and prophesied of today in the following

Matt.21: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

The "inheritors" inherit the kingdom and the blessings of their Father because they labored harder than the others and did not love their own lives above their calling to live in the spirit and "come up hither".

 

[nikolai_42]

Possessors are those who take the kingdom by force....... they are descendants from the Jews who killed the OT prophets and tried to steal their inheritance.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force

Jesus spoke of them and prophesied of today in the following

Matt.21: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

The "inheritors" inherit the kingdom and the blessings of their Father because they labored harder than the others and did not love their own lives above their calling to live in the spirit and "come up hither".

When do the inheritors inherit the kingdom?

 

[Cross Reference]

Possessors are those who take the kingdom by force....... they are descendants from the Jews who killed the OT prophets and tried to steal their inheritance.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force

Jesus spoke of them and prophesied of today in the following

Matt.21: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

The "inheritors" inherit the kingdom and the blessings of their Father because they labored harder than the others and did not love their own lives above their calling to live in the spirit and "come up hither".

"The kingdom of God is within you". s'plain that.

 

[Livelystone]

When do the inheritors inherit the kingdom?

The apostles had it in their time

Some are getting it today but I cannot see any in-between. Doesn't mean there were not any and we hear/see of things going on in third world countries where new ministries not influenced so much by western churches are seeing some kingdom works such as miracles being witnessed by many.

How much was the Pentecostal outpouring scattered throughout the 20th century a kingdom work........... I guess that depends on who was at the head of it?

However, had it been a Kingdom of God work, according to the scriptures it would not have come to an end in the manner they all did.

So much for Brownsville, Toronto, Lakeland, etc, etc.

 

[nikolai_42]

The apostles had it in their time

Some are getting it today but I cannot see any in-between.

So from this, I take it you would be more inclined to believe we should be possessors (of the kingdom, in this case) now. Is that correct?

 

[Cross Reference]

The apostles had it in their time

Some are getting it today but I cannot see any in-between. Doesn't mean there were not any and we hear/see of things going on in third world countries where new ministries not influenced so much by western churches are seeing a some kingdom works such as miracles being witnessed by many.

What shape did it take?

How much was the Pentecostal outpouring scattered throughout the 20th century a kingdom work........... I guess that depends on who was at the head of it?

Head of it?? Since it was a Pentecostal outpouring, it was of God.

However, had it been a Kingdom of God work, according to the scriptures it would not have come to an end in the manner they all did.

And how was that?

 

[jamie]

We possess what we inherit. We inherit eternal life and no one can take it from us. We possess it in Christ.

 

[Livelystone]

What shape did it take?



Head of it?? Since it was a Pentecostal outpouring, it was of God.



And how was that?

If it was of God it would have lasted.........

BTW, why do you think God had the OT priests after Pentecost mix the wheat flour with levan if not a prophecy of sin and what the Pentecostal church would do to the Word of God that would cause sin to flourish in the church?

 

[nikolai_42]

We possess what we inherit. We inherit eternal life and no one can take it from us. We possess it in Christ.

Do we possess it "now"?

 

[Cross Reference]

If it was of God it would have lasted......

...

You mean the "falling away" was because what was of God didn't work?

BTW, why do you think God had the OT priests after Pentecost mix the wheat flour with levan if not a prophecy of sin and what the Pentecostal church would do to the Word of God that would cause sin to flourish in the church?

Got scripture for that, I mean that it was a prophetic thing that pointed to what you say it did?

 

[Cross Reference]

Do we possess it "now"?

Why would you suppose anyone in Christ, now, wouldn't possess it?

 

[nikolai_42]

Why would you suppose anyone in Christ, now, wouldn't possess it?

If you prefer...what is left to inherit?

 

[Cross Reference]

If you prefer...what is left to inherit?

If I said the Godhead you would probably say I am crazy but you would be wrong. That is what man was created for and what our redemption is all about. That is what Jesus Christ is all about as being the Author of such salvation __per John 17:3.