Other prophecies of God were unconditional pronouncements. I am confidant that Revelation will unfold as stated. It is vague and general enough to allow for contingencies and more than one way to bring it to pass. The judgment of Satan is certain. At this moment, no one disputes that the whole world has not repented. Revelation is not conditional in my mind based on God's perfect past and present knowledge.
Interaction with perfect foreknowledge?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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STONE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clete
Revelation isn't wrong it's simply conditional
STONE:
Conditional implies the possibility of Revelation's judgment not happening as you before stated. There is no getting around it.
"And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."
Originally Posted by Clete
Revelation isn't wrong it's simply conditional
STONE:
Conditional implies the possibility of Revelation's judgment not happening as you before stated. There is no getting around it.
God_Is_Truth said:
"And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."
God_Is_Truth
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STONE said:
what is true and faithful is that the things of revelation are what God is right now planning to bring to pass. in other words, if we don't shape up, those things will come to pass. it's not some bluff, nor a set of empty words. those things really will happen to any who do not repent.
it seemse like one of the major purposes of such literature (apocalyptic) is to turn our hearts towards repentence. it's a warning from God: shape up, or else bad things will happen to you. it also brings encouragement to use who believe to know that evildoers will one day be punished.
I don't see any problem with your quote at all. at the time it was written, those things were exactly what God has planned for evil doers. it is still what he has planned and nothing will change that. what can change is who falls under the judgement. ideally, no one would, but that's unlikely.
lee_merrill
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Hi everyone,
Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.
And how can "true and faithful" be "these things," referring clearly to what is being said, not to an intent behind them! And if what is meant is the intent, then the reference here should be singular ("this thing"), not plural.
The book Revelation is foreknowledge, not conditional threatening! As is becoming clearer with every post and response here, it would seem...
Blessings,
Lee
How can we explain the first verse, then?God_Is_Truth said:
Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.
And how can "true and faithful" be "these things," referring clearly to what is being said, not to an intent behind them! And if what is meant is the intent, then the reference here should be singular ("this thing"), not plural.
The book Revelation is foreknowledge, not conditional threatening! As is becoming clearer with every post and response here, it would seem...
Blessings,
Lee
STONE said:
Perhaps ask him specifically what verses could be indefinite and in what possible circumstances things would not be fulfilled. It is swinging the pendulum from one extreme to another (all the future is foreknown vs little of the future can be known).
God_Is_Truth
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lee_merrill said:
how do you explain that the things to "soon take place" have not come "soon" at all? 2000 years is not soon in any sense.
there IS intent behind them, but if the people repent, so will God. it's just like ninevah. God said they would be destroyed, they repented, and so did He. if he had not repentend he would be unjust.
saying it doesn't make it so!
God_Is_Truth
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STONE said:
it's as sure as the prophecy to destroy ninevah was before they repented. God is consistent with his principles and if people repent, they will be spared.
STONE
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So you're saying if/then is definite, not necessarily Revelation exactly as described in the Book. Then Revelation is very much like Nineva, as you say, even the described judgment will only happen if people don't repent.God_Is_Truth said:
Where in Revelation did you come up with this idea? As Godrulz suggested specifically what verses could be indefinite?
lee_merrill
New member
Hi everyone,
And can people always repent? Part of the prophecy of Revelation is that certain people will not repent!
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent...
So if they repent, then we erase this verse? It wasn't written?
If people in some instances cannot repent, and God can foresee the future, then God can make such a prophecy, and this also cannot be based on character solidification...
Blessings,
Lee
Well, I believe it started right away, Revelation is not all about the great tribulation, and let's remember our 2 Peter, 2000 years, that's two days, so far...
Well, this does not address my question, though? How can "these things" actually mean an intent? Especially when the first is plural, and the second is singular. And this is an odd way to say "this intent," in any case.
And can people always repent? Part of the prophecy of Revelation is that certain people will not repent!
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent...
So if they repent, then we erase this verse? It wasn't written?
If people in some instances cannot repent, and God can foresee the future, then God can make such a prophecy, and this also cannot be based on character solidification...
The summary depends on my arguments, though!
Blessings,
Lee
God_Is_Truth
New member
STONE said:
right. if the world repented tomorrow, God would repent of his judgement. to still bring judgement would be unjust and he would be violating his own word in doing so.
Jeremiah 18 contains the principle used to interpret revelation
7"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
however, given humanity's sinful nature along with the devil's schemes it is safe to assume that the world will not repent of it's evil. there will be judgement upon the earth someday as decided by God.
God_Is_Truth
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lee_merrill said:
but one of the purposes of revelation was to encourage those still living. thus, soon should be interpreted with reference to a short timeframe. during his time on earth, Jesus spoke of many things that were near and all of them (i think) came to pass during the lives of the apostles. why should we think revelation was suddenly meant to be taken differently?
because revelation is what God is intending, right now, to do to those who do not repent of evil.
the kindness of God is what leads us to repentence (Romans 2:4). thus, the opposite of that, God's destruction, would lead us away from kindness.
without the help of God, no one can repent. even with libertarian free will, the ability to repent lies outside our ability unless God first calls to us and is there to help us.
God_Is_Truth
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STONE said:
Revelation reveals what God will do to mankind (those who do not repent) in perfect justice. it is not describing how the future exists or how it all plays out specifically. it is telling us what to expect from God in regards to punishing sin.
it motivates us to share his word with others so they can repent. it encourages us in knowing evil will one day be destroyed. we are comforted in knowing that God will someday come out on top and no longer let Satan have his free reign.
revelation is written about the future in order that we may do something about it now. it's not something we are just supposed to read and say "yay God" to. God purposed it, but not so we could use it to discuss whether or not the future exists. it has practical uses for us today.
STONE
New member
Will do? Much of Revelation is written in the past tense.God_Is_Truth said:
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."