Inversed Christianity

[jamie]

Nope - Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20; Acts 1 commission to the nations is via a redeemed Israel first...

I agree. We are the redeemed Israel according to Paul.

Paul said, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:15-16)

 

[nikolai_42]

That's a distinction based on selfishness, from my perspective.

If the goal of being a Christian is getting one's self into heaven, then why should anyone else care about or respect Christians? They clearly aren't out to do anything for anyone else. And if one is not selfishly afraid for their own imagined afterlife, Christianity is meaningless.

Do you really believe that Christianity is a religion based on such selfishness and fear? Because I don't.

I think the salvation Christ spoke of exists in the here and now (and maybe in the afterlife, too). And it's the here and now that matters to me, and to most other people. A revelation that can't heal us and save us from ourselves in the here and now is of little interest or value to me, and to most other people. Because we need the salvation in this world, and in this time, and in this body. And that's what I believe Jesus was promising. But it doesn't just fall from the sky like magic fiery dust. We have to practice at it. Just as we have to practice at anything that we want to change for the better, about ourselves.

To the "here and now" need. There's no doubt. But you're assuming you know better than God what you need "here and now". You assume that physical well being (possibly) is essential here and now. You are assuming that you know what salvation should look like "here and now". You are assuming you know how you should respond "here and now" to God. God's salvation is eternal - and while it certainly does affect us in this life, the way it does isn't always as we would like it. The salvation God provides means we don't have our vision on the "here and now" nearly as much as we do the hereafter and eternity. It means we don't have a kingdom "here and now" that is passing away but a place in heaven that God is preparing for those that love Him. This existence certainly isn't unaffected by our salvation, but the way it affects us here is not necessarily the way man thinks it should. God is building for eternity, we can't see past lunch.

Look at the parable of the seed and the sower and notice that all the bad scenarios had something to do with something happening immediately. Right away. The seed first had to go in the ground and die and then come forth as new life - only then could it bear fruit. And it bears the fruit that God wants - and if it does, we are told that God picks that fruit and we are to bear more fruit. But to decide what that has to look like ahead of time is to presume upon God. The Lord's Prayer contains the phrase "THY Kingdom come...THY will be done on earth as it is in heaven". So there is an earthly extension, but it isn't our will and it isn't our kingdom. So if we, like those under the altar (Revelation 6:9-10), have to live an earthly existence that is anything but idyllic - and even go unavenged after death - who are we to question that salvation? We can't - because what is first and foremost in God's mind is an eternal kingdom. So when we are told to seek first the kingdom of God and its righteousness, we understand that we are looking for something that will make no sense to the natural man and will often perplex us even as children of God. Even Jesus struggled (as a man) when He came up hard against the cross. How much more, then, will we?

The point is, salvation doesn't always look like what we want it to. But that is because God is doing the building and He is looking well past our natural death.

So an attitude of submission to God is of primary importance - beyond whatever way we treat men. That (submission to God) is a far better judge of one's relationship to God.

As for salvation not just dropping from heaven - I point you back again to the scriptures I put up in response to the OP. It isn't our work, it is God's (which is what my answer in this post so far comes from).

We have to practice at listening to that divine spirit within us.

This, I think, is dangerous. Jesus said His sheep know His voice and they will not follow another. That doesn't mean "listen to your heart". Rather, it means we have His Word in our hearts (e.g. Psalm 119:11, John 5:38 etc...). Scripture being the primary means - but being confirmed and used by the Holy Spirit.

And we have to practice at acting on it: at forgiving others, and at caring about the well-being of others without wanting to control them. We have to learn how to love others without exceptions and expectations. It is our life's work, and in doing it, we will find ourselves healed, and saved from our own fallen natures.

No. You have it backwards. We do those things because we are delivered from sin. Because we have been healed and saved (Eph 2:10, Luke 7:47, multiple verses speaking of the liberty we have in Christ and how to use it etc...)

But this TAKES EFFORT. It is spiritual WORK. And I believe every true Christian is being called to do it. And not to just sit in their church pews and proclaim their unquestioned belief in God. So they can presume themselves accepted into heaven.

The one in Christ will not be content just to sit there and simply say "I'm saved". But the foundation is not our works. Your post seems to hint very strongly that that is, indeed, the foundation.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Apostle Paul argued against many errors in the faith of the early Christian church.

The two errors that seem to have been the cause of the most problems throughout the centuries are:

The belief that you could only gain salvation through following the Law.

Galatians 3:10-11 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.​

The belief that you could continue being wicked and gain salvation.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.​

So, if we cannot gain salvation through following the Law and we cannot gain salvation if we continue being wicked, what is left?

Faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

This is not an empty belief, but an active living faith manifested in the way we live our lives, called walking in the Spirit by Paul.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

The lie that has been spun has that one moment of trust, one moment of submission seals the deal.
The work that the New Testament condemns is the work that is of one's own effort, one's ability, one's own power to love to do good. Pride of the self, a losing proposition.
The work God requires is continued trust and reliance upon Him through Christ, His Spirit. Discipleship, relationship, intimacy with Christ. It is a daily effort, but really daily joy and peace.
The lie has taken away discipleship, which takes Him away, which takes away His power to have victory.
Discipleship to Christ continued growing faith and trust and submission brings His light and love and goodness through us to a starved world.

(Romans 6:22 and Galatians 6:8)

 

[csuguy]

[MENTION=6127]csuguy[/MENTION]

Man wants to "do" quite a bit - or have an excuse to do nothing. That's just the way our fallen Adamic nature is. Either earn God's love, or have no requirement laid on us. The fact is, we were given 10 rules to follow and none of us have been able to do it. So no amount of trying is going to convince God to say "He's okay even though he hasn't been perfect". That's just Romans 3:23. What, then, did Jesus tell us we should "do" (bear in mind that He said this to the crowd that always wanted to "do") :

Some people want to do, others want to do nothing. Personally, I think people in general find the latter more appealing - getting everything for nothing. Hence it is such a popular view. But whichever the case, it doesn't matter theologically speaking. What matters is what we should do, what is God's will for us, how did Christ instruct us in this matter? We should do what is right, God's will for us is that we love him and one another, Christ instructs us to go forth and make disciples of all nations - teaching them to obey the commandments.

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:27-29

So really, the whole foundation is not work in that sense.

Belief must be accompanied by works to have any meaning. As James says, faith without works is dead. We see the same thing taught by Christ:

Matthew 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and [o]acts on them, [p]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the [q]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not [r]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”​

You, like, so many, fail to understand the importance of belief. You think that belief holds merit in of itself - but this is not so. For like the man who listened to his words and yet still built on the sand - what use is the Word of God to you if you refuse to act accordingly? Such a faith is dead and cannot save you, as James teaches.

Neither is the goal our work. First of all, Jesus came to relieve men of the burden of works salvation - of trying to "do" to earn favor with God :

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matthew 11:28-29

And what is the goal? Rest.

This is a giant mis-application of scripture. That verse isn't talking in any way, shape, or form about people attempting to earn salvation or of Christ lifting that burden off of them. This is a perfect example of eisegesis - you are reading your views into the scriptures rather than studying the scriptures to learn what they teach.

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:9-11

So really, we aren't the ones working. If we really and truly believe God - if we are really in Him, that is, then we will work. We will fulfill that which He has already prepared for us.

Incorrect. While we do rest from our own works - this does not mean we stop working. It means we devote ourselves to doing the will of the Lord. This is, in part, what it means to be born again, to lose your so that you may save it. You put away your old self, your sinful life chasing after worldly things, and you devote yourself to what is good and spiritual. You were a servant of sin, now you become a servant of God, of righteousness.

Furthermore, that chapter in context is not speaking of that rest being here, right now - but urges us to work diligently now so that we may enter that rest which is promised. He even warns that in times past there have been those who were preached good news, but because of disobedience they failed to enter into that rest (v. 6). So, in fact, this chapter is telling us to be persistent so that we can enter the rest when the time comes, and not lose it due to disobedience - as you are advocating by teaching people that nothing is required of them.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10

But remember, it all hinges on right belief. No amount of doing will get one here (to Hebrews 4:11 or Ephesians 2:10) - only true faith. Only the abiding Word of God will bring one to this. Only the work of God (which is predicated on the Word of God) will accomplish it.

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 5:38

So you see, the foundation of it all is the Word of God abiding in a man. The work is God's. So when we see someone who bears no good fruit (and we need to examine ourselves as well), then the issue is not the works, the issue is the faith.

Strike three. Look at all the verses that speak of the end times and judgement like the parable of the sheep vs. goats in Matthew 25, read about the requirements of eternal life in Romans 2:6-11, or any number of other such passages. Belief is not the criteria upon which one is judged. God does not demand that you pay allegiance to doctrines X, Y, and Z. God is love, and the fulfillment of the Law is love - and this is what is required of us.

1 Cor 13:13 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.​

All the Law and the prophets rest upon the two greatest commandments: love God, and love your fellow man. This is the core of Christianity - not correct belief.

You are a perfect demonstration of the kind of Christian that I addressed in my OP: you think that what God cares about is your churches denominational handbook of beliefs. You don't even think acting on those is important - merely the mental acceptance of them is sufficient. Tell me: why does God care about your acceptance of these beliefs if not to act on them?

Furthermore, since you place it all on belief - such that one who doesn't believe these things is damned - what makes you think this belief merits salvation over one who doesn't believe, since that is where you draw the line?

 

[csuguy]

The lie that has been spun has that one moment of trust, one moment of submission seals the deal.
The work that the New Testament condemns is the work that is of one's own effort, one's ability, one's own power to love to do good. Pride of the self, a losing proposition.
The work God requires is continued trust and reliance upon Him through Christ, His Spirit. Discipleship, relationship, intimacy with Christ. It is a daily effort, but really daily joy and peace.
The lie has taken away discipleship, which takes Him away, which takes away His power to have victory.
Discipleship to Christ continued growing faith and trust and submission brings His light and love and goodness through us to a starved world.

(Romans 6:22 and Galatians 6:8)

While the scriptures certainly put to rest the idea that the individual can save themselves independent of Christ and the mercy of God; you take it to an opposite extreme. The fact is that we can fulfill the Law, there is never a time when one must sin - it is always a choice, and there is always an escape. Even before Christ this was true, for when God gave them the Law he said this:

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it [q]out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, [r]that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Read that again: "this commandment... is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. It is not in heaven... nor is it beyond the sea ... but the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it... I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live."

Recall now the promise of the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

Is God's Law written on your heart and mind, or not? If so, then you are fully capable of keeping it and fulfilling it. However, if your mind is set on worldly things - then indeed you will be incapable of pleasing God.​

​

 

[nikolai_42]

Some people want to do, others want to do nothing. Personally, I think people in general find the latter more appealing - getting everything for nothing. Hence it is such a popular view. But whichever the case, it doesn't matter theologically speaking. What matters is what we should do, what is God's will for us, how did Christ instruct us in this matter? We should do what is right, God's will for us is that we love him and one another, Christ instructs us to go forth and make disciples of all nations - teaching them to obey the commandments.



Belief must be accompanied by works to have any meaning. As James says, faith without works is dead. We see the same thing taught by Christ:

Matthew 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and [o]acts on them, [p]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the [q]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not [r]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”​

You, like, so many, fail to understand the importance of belief. You think that belief holds merit in of itself - but this is not so. For like the man who listened to his words and yet still built on the sand - what use is the Word of God to you if you refuse to act accordingly? Such a faith is dead and cannot save you, as James teaches.



This is a giant mis-application of scripture. That verse isn't talking in any way, shape, or form about people attempting to earn salvation or of Christ lifting that burden off of them. This is a perfect example of eisegesis - you are reading your views into the scriptures rather than studying the scriptures to learn what they teach.



Incorrect. While we do rest from our own works - this does not mean we stop working. It means we devote ourselves to doing the will of the Lord. This is, in part, what it means to be born again, to lose your so that you may save it. You put away your old self, your sinful life chasing after worldly things, and you devote yourself to what is good and spiritual. You were a servant of sin, now you become a servant of God, of righteousness.

Furthermore, that chapter in context is not speaking of that rest being here, right now - but urges us to work diligently now so that we may enter that rest which is promised. He even warns that in times past there have been those who were preached good news, but because of disobedience they failed to enter into that rest (v. 6). So, in fact, this chapter is telling us to be persistent so that we can enter the rest when the time comes, and not lose it due to disobedience - as you are advocating by teaching people that nothing is required of them.



Strike three. Look at all the verses that speak of the end times and judgement like the parable of the sheep vs. goats in Matthew 25, read about the requirements of eternal life in Romans 2:6-11, or any number of other such passages. Belief is not the criteria upon which one is judged. God does not demand that you pay allegiance to doctrines X, Y, and Z. God is love, and the fulfillment of the Law is love - and this is what is required of us.

1 Cor 13:13 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.​

All the Law and the prophets rest upon the two greatest commandments: love God, and love your fellow man. This is the core of Christianity - not correct belief.

You are a perfect demonstration of the kind of Christian that I addressed in my OP: you think that what God cares about is your churches denominational handbook of beliefs. You don't even think acting on those is important - merely the mental acceptance of them is sufficient. Tell me: why does God care about your acceptance of these beliefs if not to act on them?

Furthermore, since you place it all on belief - such that one who doesn't believe these things is damned - what makes you think this belief merits salvation over one who doesn't believe, since that is where you draw the line?

The issue is where the foundation is. I'm not saying we don't need works. But it is absolutely essential - the crux of the matter, really - where those works "come from". That's why the (seeming) overemphasis on belief and (seeming) underemphasis on works. We are not saved by works - but the one who is truly saved WILL work. That said, the kind of works that one does are going to be judged as whether founded on Christ or not. But you can't say that Abraham obeyed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Don't forget about those ones of whom Christ said "I never knew you". They did a whole bunch for Him (in His name) but were discounted...why? Not for works, but for faith (or rather, lack thereof).

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 4:1-8

 

[nikolai_42]

@csyguy

Anticipating your bringing up James again, remember what Jesus said :

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Matthew 12:33

A man (tree) is known by his works (fruit). So looking at this scripture, it should be obvious that good fruit does not come from a corrupt tree (or vice versa). Thus, changing a man's works doesn't change the man. But changing the man will (necessarily) change his works. We can worry all we want about someone acting a certain way or showing some sort of evidence - but in the end, changing that man's works is no different than taking medication to get rid of symptoms to an underlying illness. As long as that illness is there, you haven't dealt with the real illness (unbelief). Once that is dealt with, the symptoms (fruit or works) will line up.

That, really, is all James is saying. If you believe, you will evidence works. The Word of God elicits those works - the Word of God having active residence in a man.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

While the scriptures certainly put to rest the idea that the individual can save themselves independent of Christ and the mercy of God; you take it to an opposite extreme. The fact is that we can fulfill the Law, there is never a time when one must sin - it is always a choice, and there is always an escape. Even before Christ this was true, for when God gave them the Law he said this:

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it [q]out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, [r]that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Read that again: "this commandment... is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. It is not in heaven... nor is it beyond the sea ... but the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it... I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live."

Recall now the promise of the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

Is God's Law written on your heart and mind, or not? If so, then you are fully capable of keeping it and fulfilling it. However, if your mind is set on worldly things - then indeed you will be incapable of pleasing God.​

​

Let me clarify my point.

"I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever abides in Me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can nothing." John 15:5
"...but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26

"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phiilipians 4:13

It takes continued devotion, prayer, connection and worship of Christ, to be filled with Him to do what He desires, which is to do good, to love, to speak the truth in love, to make disciples. We are powerless without Him.​

​

 

[PureX]

To the "here and now" need. There's no doubt. But you're assuming you know better than God what you need "here and now". You assume that physical well being (possibly) is essential here and now.

I am assuming that to love others as myself means to care about their well-being as I care about my own. And to care about their freedom as I care about my own. And to care about their existence in Earth as I care about my own. And I am not God, so I cannot presume to know how the suffering of others may be part of God's plan for them. So as a human being, I will want to alleviate that suffering. This isn't because I "know better than God", it's because I DON'T KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS. All I do know is that love drives me to want to help others how I can, and to alleviate their suffering.

You are assuming that you know what salvation should look like "here and now". You are assuming you know how you should respond "here and now" to God.

As a living human being, what other choice do I have? The 'here and now' and the limitations of me are all I have to work with. If I am to love God, I'm going to have to do it within these limitations, and using the abilities that I have. And I don't know what you think the alternative is.

God's salvation is eternal - and while it certainly does affect us in this life, the way it does isn't always as we would like it.

But WE have no way of knowing what "eternity" is and how it will effect us. That's God's purview, not ours. You keep talking like you have some special knowledge that I know you don't have.

The salvation God provides means we don't have our vision on the "here and now" nearly as much as we do the hereafter and eternity.

But the reality is that we have no vision at all of "hereafter and eternity". All we can see, for now, is the here and now. And it's within these limitations that we must love God, and our brothers and sisters as ourselves.

It means we don't have a kingdom "here and now" that is passing away but a place in heaven that God is preparing for those that love Him.

That's just make-believe on your part. You don't know any of it to be true. And logic dictates that if God is eternal, so is salvation. Which means it is "here and now" just as much as it "there and then".

This existence certainly isn't unaffected by our salvation, but the way it affects us here is not necessarily the way man thinks it should. God is building for eternity, we can't see past lunch.

That's all well and good, but you and I are men. Not gods. So the only effect we can see and know is the effect in the here and now.

The point is, salvation doesn't always look like what we want it to. But that is because God is doing the building and He is looking well past our natural death.

I don't see how this excuses us from acting according to the information we have: loving others, and God through others, in the here and now. Because we don't have access to or knowledge of this magical existence beyond the here and now. And it looks to me like you're trying to use our ignorance of this magical hereafter to excuse us from doing what Jesus told us to do in the here and now: to love others, and to love God through others.

So an attitude of submission to God is of primary importance - beyond whatever way we treat men. That (submission to God) is a far better judge of one's relationship to God.

It's not my business to judge men's relationship to God. Jesus never told me judge other men's relationship to God. He only told me to love them, and forgive them, and to be kind and generous toward them.

Nor did Jesus ever tell me to judge my own relationship to God. Only that it will be apparent by the way I treat myself and others: via love, or via selfishness.

As for salvation not just dropping from heaven - I point you back again to the scriptures I put up in response to the OP. It isn't our work, it is God's (which is what my answer in this post so far comes from).

Then why did Jesus tell us to do it? I won't play "scripture wars" with you because I don't idolize scripture as if it came directly from the mouth of God, and therefor I don't care when quotes contradict each other. The truth is not defined nor contained by men's religious scriptures.

 

[PureX]

The one in Christ will not be content just to sit there and simply say "I'm saved". But the foundation is not our works. Your post seems to hint very strongly that that is, indeed, the foundation.

That foundation is love. Not religion. Not scriptures. Not proclamations of righteousness through faith. The foundation is love, being put into action by our faith in the power of that love to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help us to heal others.

I think you're offended because I won't put your religion before love in terms of import. But I don't. I won't. And to do so, I believe, would be to miss the beauty of the forest for the confusion of trees.

 

[csuguy]

The issue is where the foundation is. I'm not saying we don't need works. But it is absolutely essential - the crux of the matter, really - where those works "come from". That's why the (seeming) overemphasis on belief and (seeming) underemphasis on works. We are not saved by works - but the one who is truly saved WILL work. That said, the kind of works that one does are going to be judged as whether founded on Christ or not. But you can't say that Abraham obeyed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Don't forget about those ones of whom Christ said "I never knew you". They did a whole bunch for Him (in His name) but were discounted...why? Not for works, but for faith (or rather, lack thereof).

I couldn't disagree more: what you do, your actions, your works, these matter much more than your specific beliefs. The whole merit behind your beliefs, after all, is that they guide your actions. Belief/faith without action is dead and meaningless and will not save you.

Additionally, it IS us who do these things. We have freewill to choose to do good or evil, to choose to follow God or to chase after the things of this world. This does not change when you become a Christian - hence we are constantly told to persevere in the scriptures, and that only those who persevere in the faith, in doing the will of the Lord - only these will be saved.

Don't forget about those ones of whom Christ said "I never knew you". They did a whole bunch for Him (in His name) but were discounted...why? Not for works, but for faith (or rather, lack thereof).

Here is the passage in question:

Matthew 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”​

We can see here that the passage in question teaches the exact opposite of your interpretation. It emphasizes the necessity of works, of doing the will of the Lord. It says that only the one who does the will of the Lord will be saved. He then provides a parable to emphasize this point about two men who hear the Word of the Lord. The one who puts them into practice, who acts on them,is a wise man who is safe from the storm (judgement). The one who hears these words but does NOT put them into practice is as the foolish man - building on the sand despite being instructed otherwise. When the storm (judgement) comes, he finds destruction.

This pretty clearly settles the debate about which is more important: works or belief. Belief is important because it guides one's actions. But if you do not act on your belief, then what good does it do you? You are no better off than when you did not know. In fact, if you refuse to act on what you believe, then you are even worse off than before - for at least before you were ignorant. But if you know what to do and do not do it - then your conscious condemns you before God.

On the other hand, one who has not been preached the Word and yet does what is right - he demonstrates that the Law is written on his heart and mind before the Lord. (Romans 2:12-16) Thus it is possible for a believer to be damned, but a non-believer to be saved based upon what is in their heart and mind, based upon their actions.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 4:1-8

James 2:20-24 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.​

If one believes that is good - providing he acts accordingly. But if he acts contrary to his belief, then his conscious condemns him. Hence God gave the Law - so that it would condemn sin completely. Belief that is not acted upon cannot save you. Rather, the scriptures always speak of faith with the understanding that you are to act on that faith. To act contrary to your faith - that is sin.

If Abraham believed and then acted contrary to that faith - spitting in God's face - then you would not consider him righteous, but evil and foolish and fully deserving of any condemnation that resulted.

 

[csuguy]

@csyguy

Anticipating your bringing up James again, remember what Jesus said :

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Matthew 12:33

A man (tree) is known by his works (fruit). So looking at this scripture, it should be obvious that good fruit does not come from a corrupt tree (or vice versa). Thus, changing a man's works doesn't change the man. But changing the man will (necessarily) change his works. We can worry all we want about someone acting a certain way or showing some sort of evidence - but in the end, changing that man's works is no different than taking medication to get rid of symptoms to an underlying illness. As long as that illness is there, you haven't dealt with the real illness (unbelief). Once that is dealt with, the symptoms (fruit or works) will line up.

That, really, is all James is saying. If you believe, you will evidence works. The Word of God elicits those works - the Word of God having active residence in a man.

We are given freewill to choose good or evil, life or death. This is the battle we face, and it is not so cut-and-dry as you are either the good tree or the bad tree. For one who has historically been good may fall, and one who has historically been bad may repent. At any time one is free to do good or bad - and no matter how good you are there will always be temptations. Hence Christ was tempted - and one cannot be tempted with something they do not desire. Paul speaks of this struggle like so:

Romans 7:21-25 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.​

We are fully capable of doing what is right, of not-sinning. At least, providing your heart and mind are set upon God, upon doing what is good and right, upon love. When God gave the Law, he said this:

Deut 30:11-19 this commandment... is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. It is not in heaven... nor is it beyond the sea ... but the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it... I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live.​

So let there be no doubt that we have been presented with a choice, and that we are fully capable of making such decisions: to do good or evil, to obey or to sin, to live or to die.

 

[csuguy]

It takes continued devotion, prayer, connection and worship of Christ, to be filled with Him to do what He desires, which is to do good, to love, to speak the truth in love, to make disciples. We are powerless without Him.

It is true that God strengthens us, guides us, and blesses our efforts to fruition. It is true that our very existence is completely dependent upon him. However, it is also true that God has presented us with a choice: to do good or to do evil, to obey or the sin, to live or to die (Deut 30). And he has enabled us to make these decisions ourselves, they are not too difficult for us. The Word of the Lord does not reside in heaven or hell - out of our reach - but is very near to us, in our hearts and minds that we may do what is right and good and holy, that we may live.

 

[nikolai_42]

I couldn't disagree more: what you do, your actions, your works, these matter much more than your specific beliefs. The whole merit behind your beliefs, after all, is that they guide your actions. Belief/faith without action is dead and meaningless and will not save you.

{Emphasis added}

I simply want to address one point here. Your focus is on works. You say it is all-important. But above you seem to have agreed with what I am saying (even if only tangentially and implicitly). That is, that your beliefs guide your actions. So as I read your statement above, I see a partial contradiction. On the one hand you are saying actions, works, deeds etc...are primary. But by indicating that beliefs guide actions, you have to admit that that places beliefs on a more critical plane. To use what may be an overly simplistic illustration - if one aims an arrow at a target and pulls the bow back and lets it fly in the direction of the target and the arrow misses the target, the arrow isn't responsible for where it ended up - the bow (and more directly, the shooter) is. Beliefs (bow) guide actions (arrow hitting target).

Do you believe one can work without believing appropriately first?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

It is true that God strengthens us, guides us, and blesses our efforts to fruition. It is true that our very existence is completely dependent upon him. However, it is also true that God has presented us with a choice: to do good or to do evil, to obey or the sin, to live or to die (Deut 30). And he has enabled us to make these decisions ourselves, they are not too difficult for us. The Word of the Lord does not reside in heaven or hell - out of our reach - but is very near to us, in our hearts and minds that we may do what is right and good and holy, that we may live.

I don't disagree, but would add that our choice to love the way that God does, Agape love, is based on us being loved first by Him and filled with His love, His Spirit. The choice to surrender to Him, to seek Him in Prayer and worship and intimacy precedes the choice to love as It enables the choosing to love as Christ does.

 

[csuguy]

EDIT: Duplicate

 

[csuguy]

{Emphasis added}

I simply want to address one point here. Your focus is on works. You say it is all-important. But above you seem to have agreed with what I am saying (even if only tangentially and implicitly). That is, that your beliefs guide your actions. So as I read your statement above, I see a partial contradiction. On the one hand you are saying actions, works, deeds etc...are primary. But by indicating that beliefs guide actions, you have to admit that that places beliefs on a more critical plane. To use what may be an overly simplistic illustration - if one aims an arrow at a target and pulls the bow back and lets it fly in the direction of the target and the arrow misses the target, the arrow isn't responsible for where it ended up - the bow (and more directly, the shooter) is. Beliefs (bow) guide actions (arrow hitting target).

Do you believe one can work without believing appropriately first?

Good - we both agree that beliefs guide your actions. So then, tell me, of what use are beliefs which do NOT guide your actions? What of beliefs that you act contrary to, that you ignore? Of what use are such beliefs? James says such faith is dead and cannot save you. Belief/faith only finds completion in action and apart from action is meaningless.

On the other hand, one who has not received the Law can do what is right. They become a law to themselves:

Romans 2:12-16 For all who have sinned [f]without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having [o]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

So you see, even one who does not have the Law of God yet can do what is right, becoming a law to themselves - even having that law written on their hearts and minds. When the judgement comes, their conscience will even defend them before God. Such a one can be saved, even while not believing, and a believer can be damned despite his/her belief - because their deeds were not in accordance with their proclaimed faith.

That is not to say that beliefs are not important - but, again, faith without works is dead and cannot save you. Only in action is belief made complete. We must understand that when the scriptures speak of believing Christ, it is implied that you are to follow the teachings and commandments of Christ. When it says those that who believe will be saved - it is implicitly understand that you are acting according to that faith.

 

[heir]

That is not to say that beliefs are not important - but, again, faith without works is dead and cannot save you.

Grace without works is not dead and we are most certainly saved by it!Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV

Only in action is belief made complete.

Romans 4:4-5 KJV, Romans 11:5 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV

We must understand that when the scriptures speak of believing Christ, it is implied that you are to follow the teachings and commandments of Christ.

Romans 3:21-22 KJV

 

[csuguy]

I don't disagree, but would add that our choice to love the way that God does, Agape love, is based on us being loved first by Him and filled with His love, His Spirit. The choice to surrender to Him, to seek Him in Prayer and worship and intimacy precedes the choice to love as It enables the choosing to love as Christ does.

Incorrect: that passage I referenced (Deut 30) was around long before Christ was sent for our salvation and reconciliation. Long before that, God said that the commandments are not too difficult for us, and not in heaven nor beyond the see - out of our reach. Even then God spoke of the Law being written on our hearts and minds so that we could choose to do what is right. And these people did not have the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore Paul speaks of Gentiles who never received God's Law (Romans 2:12-16): how such a one who does do what is right and good yet becomes a law unto themselves. At the judgement, their conscience will even defend them before God.

There is nothing that precedes our ability to do good. People like to emphasize the evil part of the Tree of Good and Evil that Adam ate from: but Good is there too. We know how to do both, though full knowledge of the good is found in Christ, so that even a non-believer is capable of recognizing evil and of doing what is right.