Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Yes, she's been very candid about it.
Is eternal suffering literal?
- Thread starter Keiw1
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Yes, she's been very candid about it.
Derf
Well-known member
Once more I let a good conversation go stale.
Two of the references, and possibly all 3, seem to be about Jews and relate to non-Jews. The first was the story of the Centurion's sick servant:
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Mat 8:12 KJV]
The second is the story of the marriage feast where the original invitees (Jews) were not interested in coming, so the king invited those from the highways and byways (which could include Gentiles, as well as sinners and publicans).
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Mat 22:13 KJV]
The last was the story of the talents, where the unfaithful servant who hid his talent in the ground. If the servants are the Jews, the increase might include Gentiles (this is the one where the Gentile connection is weaker, but the very next section in the same chapter talks about Jesus judging the nations, which is usually translated 'Gentiles'.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Mat 25:30 KJV]
All these are talking about the Kingdom of Heaven. The idea, then, is that the outer darkness is outside the kingdom, represented by light (truth), and the weeping and gnashing of teeth is the jealousy of the Jews when Gentiles are welcomed in and they find themselves on the outside. Read through those three passagesand see what you think.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [Mat 25:41 KJV]
There are 3 passages using the phrase, all in Matthew. This normally would trigger comments about it being only for Jews. Matthew especially seems geared for Jews, and I've heard some suggest it was written in Hebrew and translated into Greek (evidence has been offered about how the way the Greek reads different from how an original text would be constructed).
Two of the references, and possibly all 3, seem to be about Jews and relate to non-Jews. The first was the story of the Centurion's sick servant:
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Mat 8:12 KJV]
The second is the story of the marriage feast where the original invitees (Jews) were not interested in coming, so the king invited those from the highways and byways (which could include Gentiles, as well as sinners and publicans).
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Mat 22:13 KJV]
The last was the story of the talents, where the unfaithful servant who hid his talent in the ground. If the servants are the Jews, the increase might include Gentiles (this is the one where the Gentile connection is weaker, but the very next section in the same chapter talks about Jesus judging the nations, which is usually translated 'Gentiles'.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Mat 25:30 KJV]
All these are talking about the Kingdom of Heaven. The idea, then, is that the outer darkness is outside the kingdom, represented by light (truth), and the weeping and gnashing of teeth is the jealousy of the Jews when Gentiles are welcomed in and they find themselves on the outside. Read through those three passagesand see what you think.
Eternal fire was, but not Sheol, since even you don't believe that all people that died before Christ were in everlasting fire, but they were in Sheol. Hades (the NT word for Sheol) is thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20, so it doesn't make sense to say that Sheol is the same as everlasting fire.Specifically this part, but the verses immediately surrounding it as well.
Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself
And opened its mouth beyond measure;
Their glory and their multitude and their pomp,
And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it.
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 5:14 - New King James Version
Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself And opened its mouth beyond measure; Their glory and their multitude and their pomp, And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it.www.biblegateway.com
Sheol is enlarged because it was never intended for men to be cast into it.
It was made for the devil and his followers.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [Mat 25:41 KJV]
Which sounds like the grave, or under the earth. Sheol is often translated as 'grave'. Most of the passages that mention sheol make plenty of sense if you translate it grave.
I don't know of the passage(s) in Isaiah about 2 compartments. Can you find them for me? As far as I know, the only passage that supports the two-compartment model of Sheol is the story of the rich man and Lazarus, which is also the only mention of Abraham's bosom in the whole bible.
Which works just as well with 'grave', and points to our real hope--the resurrection.
That's the standard story, but it has holes.
I'll try to listen to it soon.
Derf
Well-known member
I forgot to check the link first. I can't access, as I don't have nor want a Facebook account.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Sounded like she said "to the god of sound" to me, but hey, even if you're stuck on Azel...
However you want to hear it, don't try and add two extra syllables to it to make it something she didn't say. That would be lower than low.
However you want to hear it, don't try and add two extra syllables to it to make it something she didn't say. That would be lower than low.
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Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Yep, sounded like she was saying 'God of sound' to me as well.
The men it was intended for were those who follow the devil.
Do you a agree with Bob's teaching about Lucifer, (i.e. the yet unfallen angel) having sinned in Genesis 3 and that it was his temptation of Adam and Eve was where sin entered creation?
Me? Yes.
The point of the question that your statement, "Sheol is enlarged because it was never intended for men to be cast into it.", seems to be incompatible with the teaching that men and the devil fell at the same time.
I showed Chat GPT that video and after it's initial response, I also asked whether Dolly ever made any public professions of faith in Christ. Here is it's response...
Yes. Dolly Parton made many public professions of Christian faith over the course of her life, and some were quite explicit. This wasn’t merely a vague “I believe in a higher power” public persona.
She was raised in a Pentecostal Christian family; her grandfather was a preacher. In her 1994 autobiography she described a personal experience of finding God through prayer, writing that she came to know God as “a friend I could talk to on a one-to-one basis” and calling Him “our Father.” (Christianity Today)
She also repeatedly described her life in explicitly God-centered terms. In interviews with The Christian Post, she said things along the lines of her life’s purpose being to do something for God, spoke about prayer, forgiveness, being “anointed” for a purpose, and credited God with directing her life and career. (Christian Post)
And this went well beyond interviews. She recorded Christian and gospel music throughout her career. Her 1971 album The Golden Streets of Glory was an explicitly gospel record, and many later songs directly addressed God, heaven, prayer, salvation, and Christian hope. (Christianity Today)
There is a qualification, though. Parton sometimes described herself as “spiritual” rather than “religious,” and her theology in later life was fairly broad and inclusive. She did not always sound like an evangelical giving a tightly formulated testimony along the lines of “I am saved solely through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.” But she certainly and repeatedly identified herself publicly with Christianity, prayer, God, Jesus, heaven, and a personal relationship with God. (Christianity Today)
So if the question behind your question is, “Does the Azazel allegation fit what Dolly herself publicly claimed to believe?” the answer is: not at all. Her extensive public record points toward professed Christian faith, not devotion to Azazel.
That doesn't prove what was in her heart, obviously. Nor does a Christian profession automatically disprove every allegation about a person's conduct. But evidentially, we'd need very strong evidence before concluding that someone who spent decades publicly professing faith in God and Christ was secretly worshiping Azazel. A garbled five-second toast and an ambiguous hand gesture don't come close to carrying that weight.
Derf
Well-known member
It makes sense to me, but I struggle with the verse
--Romans 5:12 KJV — Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:--
if "sin" entered the world by Adam, how could Satan have sinned before Adam? Did Bob offer an explanation?
Derf
Well-known member
I see what you mean. But was Sheol, "realm of the dead" something that applied to Satan at all?
Not necessarily.
I know what you're saying, and I see the supposed contradiction, but could not God, at the time of Genesis 3 (or thereabouts), create Sheol with the intention of imprisoning Lucifer and his angel (now demonic) subordinates while at the same time intending to redeem all of mankind, and bring them back into alignment with Himself? This is conjecture, but perhaps God at the time never realized just how wicked and rebellious and hard-hearted, and unwilling to repent, man, His creation, could be?
Edit: hold that thought....
ttruscott
Well-known member
IF we were created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose by their free will to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
Surely Satan is among the wicked...
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
I have never heard this before. Interesting.
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VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Well presumably Adam and Eve could have resisted when Satan tempted them to disobey God. Though technically one thing happened before the other, it wasn't until after both things occurred that God came, saw what happened, cursed the serpent and informed Adam and Eve of the consequences of their actions. Had God intervened the instant Satan began to tempt Eve, then that would have been no real temptation. So in that regard, it makes sense to treat it as a single event. Though technically one thing happen and then another thing ect ect..
Peas and carrots always go together. But first you have your carrots and then you add the peas.
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Derf
Well-known member
But if any creature of this world sins, then sin has come into the world, has it not? Or was it because Adam had been given resposibility/dominion over the world? Or was it that Satan was not part of this world, but was merely performing a task in this world for a short time? idk
No, peas and carrots always come from the can already mixed. But the peas, as inferior beings, are thrown under the table or "Sheol", from whence we get the word "shoe", which is also under the table.
Edited: Not to mention Sheol Aether, signifying the spiritual nature of the place. Through the millennia this concept has corrupted into the more easily recognized "shoe leather".
Kidding...I'm just kidding!
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Right Divider
Body part
There is a qualification there, Satan is not part of "all the nations".
Flashing the goat horns, what they in their industry call the Baphonet, and saying to an over servant of Satan Taylor Swift "I want your first born" changed my mind. I can't reconcile what she said. And to have hell bound perverts here that pervert right and wrong every chance they get declare her good is another clue.
She can't lose salvation, but I doubt she believed if she did what it sure looks like she did.
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