Cruciform
New member
Again: Simply click on the link in Post #74.
Is Perspecuity Necessary for Sola Scriptura?
- Thread starter glassjester
- Start date
iouae
Well-known member
I could post a link to the whole Bible as proof you are wrong.
Sorry, you will have to present your succinct proofs - I refuse to plough through all that.
Cruciform
New member
It's simply a list of biblical texts. In any case, your transparent excuse for deliberately avoiding relevant information is noted.
iouae
Well-known member
Do you think there is a question on TOL which has not been debated before? Why don't we all just post a link to that discussion and be done?
That is how ridiculous it is. The Catholic Church has 2000 years of writings I don't want to have to plough through. Maybe you don't even understand their own arguments well enough to succinctly present them??
iouae
Well-known member
Let us take the sacrament of "extreme unction" or "last rites" as an example of a man-made sacrament, never mentioned in the Bible.
Its purpose of controlling Catholics until the day they die, scaring them into believing that unless they have this rite performed by an "ordained" priest, they are on a slippery slide to wherever, is obvious.
And likewise the very idea of a "sacrament" is an invention of the Catholic Church, to better control people.
Likewise the idea of an "ordained" minister to administer these sacraments is an invention of the Catholics, which Protestants today still adopt.
"Ordained" pastors reading this. Tear up your "ordination" certificate. There is no such thing mentioned in the Bible.
Did the Apostles pull out their ordination certificates signed by Christ Himself to prove their apostleship?
No. Even Paul appealed to his works in service of the Lord to prove his apostleship.
Likewise, if you do the work of a teacher for Christ, then you ARE, de facto ordained by the Holy Spirit to that task.
Or you are just a man-powered teacher, no better than one who went through Bible College to emerge with a piece of paper.
Its purpose of controlling Catholics until the day they die, scaring them into believing that unless they have this rite performed by an "ordained" priest, they are on a slippery slide to wherever, is obvious.
And likewise the very idea of a "sacrament" is an invention of the Catholic Church, to better control people.
Likewise the idea of an "ordained" minister to administer these sacraments is an invention of the Catholics, which Protestants today still adopt.
"Ordained" pastors reading this. Tear up your "ordination" certificate. There is no such thing mentioned in the Bible.
Did the Apostles pull out their ordination certificates signed by Christ Himself to prove their apostleship?
No. Even Paul appealed to his works in service of the Lord to prove his apostleship.
Likewise, if you do the work of a teacher for Christ, then you ARE, de facto ordained by the Holy Spirit to that task.
Or you are just a man-powered teacher, no better than one who went through Bible College to emerge with a piece of paper.
Last edited:
HisServant
New member
Scripture does not teach... it is a witness. The Holy Spirit teaches through the individual.
As far as practices and doctrines.... the gospel is so simple that a child can understand it and that is sufficient for God. So to add layers and layers of rituals and doctrines beyond the witness of the scriptures and imposed by other supposed wise men is a huge mistake.... and a departure into paganism.
As far as practices and doctrines.... the gospel is so simple that a child can understand it and that is sufficient for God. So to add layers and layers of rituals and doctrines beyond the witness of the scriptures and imposed by other supposed wise men is a huge mistake.... and a departure into paganism.
that is clear
brewmama
New member
Well, in as much as you denounce the words of Christ himself and have nothing to back up what you say, I think the onus is on YOU.The Apostles themselves differ with you, as they are the ones who started Apostolic succession. You have no evidence to the contrary.
And "elders" are priests, just another thing you missed along the way.
Your lack of any evidence and refusal to address ours in a meaningful way makes talking to you a waste of my time and effort.
iouae
Well-known member
I know it blows the mind to think that He sets people in offices, not the church. That is what "Sola Scriptura" does.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
I think you've misunderstood Sola Scriptura. The original idea as articulated during the reformation didn't mean that every person should interpret Scripture for himself.
Rather, it meant that any authoritative ruling should be rooted directly in Scripture. It is an objection to the proliferation of canon law based on other canon law.
The issue at the time was that you had a bishop making a ruling that was based on another ruling that was based on another ruling that was based on a synod that was based on Scripture.
It's like the game "telephone" - the more people you put in between the farther from the original meaning and intent you get. Eventually, you get things coming out the other end that are nonsense, or even in contradiction to what was originally intended.
Jarrod
iouae
Well-known member
And this happened until Guttenberg invented the printing press and folks COULD for the first time read the Bible for themselves.
And they were dumfounded to see how they had been duped.
Cruciform
New member
The source I provided succinctly presents the Catholic position on the point under discussion.
glassjester
Well-known member
Right... but Christ could commission individuals to perform this task, through Him, but by proxy. Right?
Otherwise, how do you reconcile your statement above, with John 20:23?
iouae
Well-known member
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
In the course of evangelism (vs 21) people will repent, be baptised and receive the Holy Spirit (vs 22) and have their sins forgiven them by the Father (vs 23).
The reference to "ye remit" is through your efforts in preaching the Gospel "ye remit" - no more, no less. If you do nothing, no sins are remitted.
The thought of cancelling out others sins is so far from the Protestant mind.
What we can also do is pray for others in sin, that they will repent, and that too is a way we can be involved in remitting sin.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Here the "he" giving life is the Father IF the sinner repents.
iouae
Well-known member
With the printing of Bibles in the vernacular, "sola scriptura" began.
And things went better for all concerned since that time, would you not agree?
It went better for Protestants, and it went better for Catholics as it does to this day?
Today we hold the church to account for its teachings.
No longer can the church control our access to salvation.
And when you realise that there is no such thing as having to have communion given to you as a sacrament by some controlling few, then you will be free indeed.
It is not for the church to decide who receives communion.
And things went better for all concerned since that time, would you not agree?
It went better for Protestants, and it went better for Catholics as it does to this day?
Today we hold the church to account for its teachings.
No longer can the church control our access to salvation.
And when you realise that there is no such thing as having to have communion given to you as a sacrament by some controlling few, then you will be free indeed.
It is not for the church to decide who receives communion.
everready
New member
By giving the papacy the go ahead to add to Gods word your fulfilling Prophecy.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
by thinking to change times and laws "Gods laws"
everready
Cruciform
New member
Straw Man Fallacy. Try again.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
You missed the larger point: Sola Scriptura has nothing to do with the people's ability to interpret Scripture for themselves. Nothing.
Sola Scriptura is about curtailing the runaway creation of so-called "doctrines" and "interpretations" by the church, which were not even based on Scripture. If you interpret Scripture, and then re-interpret the interpretation, and then create laws based on an interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation, you're basically saying "I can reinterpret this as many times as I want, until it says what I want it to."
We have the same problem in America's legal system. Judges create "case law" via precedent all the time, which isn't based on any law created by Legislature or Referendum. Judicial decisions are often based on OTHER judicial decisions, which are in turn based on some other judge's opinion of yet another judge's opinion, and so forth ad nauseum. I've even read opinions that cited rulings from other countries or international courts.
Jarrod
who interprets it for you?
iouae
Well-known member
You missed the larger point: Sola Scriptura has nothing to do with the people's ability to interpret Scripture for themselves. Nothing.
Sola Scriptura is about curtailing the runaway creation of so-called "doctrines" and "interpretations" by the church, which were not even based on Scripture. If you interpret Scripture, and then re-interpret the interpretation, and then create laws based on an interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation, you're basically saying "I can reinterpret this as many times as I want, until it says what I want it to."
We have the same problem in America's legal system. Judges create "case law" via precedent all the time, which isn't based on any law created by Legislature or Referendum. Judicial decisions are often based on OTHER judicial decisions, which are in turn based on some other judge's opinion of yet another judge's opinion, and so forth ad nauseum. I've even read opinions that cited rulings from other countries or international courts.
Jarrod
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by Scripture alone") is the Christian doctrine that the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice. Sola scriptura does not deny that other authorities govern Christian life and devotion, but sees them all as subordinate to and corrected by the written word of God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
I think I have a handle on "scripture alone" to decide doctrine.
All who are not too lazy to read the Bible for themselves, have the option of reading it and reaching their own conclusions.
And what a wonderful empowerment this is.
True, sometimes we will misread or overlook something, but so do the churches. And at least we have the option. Some are happy in their cult being fed doctrine. Some feel too insecure to feel they can reach a conclusion on doctrine by themselves. Some like not being responsible for what they believe, preferring like a slave, to be under church rule.
I thank God we live at a time like this where there is so much freedom to believe God as we wish without it being imposed on us from outside.