Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[ok doser]

It needs to be a term of negation, IMHO; and eternal and aeviternal are not the same thing, so I’d prefer everlasting to the fallacious term eternal. This might prompt discussions on a delineation between the two terms, which would be helpful.

This would be a great thread topic, if it didn’t turn into a septic tank.

I’ll give it some thought rather than hastily responding. Great question.

I never know who has which view, so (before I address Greek grammar and semantics) are you posting to support Annihilationism, Universalism, or “ECT” (still hate that term)?

So, Everlasting, Conscious, Separation

"ECS"

 

[Omniskeptical]

let's see how that would work in Hitler's case


God: "Bad Hitler! Don't ever do that again or I won't let you into heaven!"

Hitler: "OK. Sorry."

God: "Good Hitler! Come on in!"

Morelike, Hitler gets nearly beaten to death, then gets in.

 

[ok doser]

Morelike, Hitler gets nearly beaten to death, then gets in.

mine's funnier

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

So, Everlasting, Conscious, Separation

"ECS"

Much closer. Everlasting Separation from Divine Communion, may be even better. (ESDC)

 

[way 2 go]

This would require quite a lengthy delineation of Anthropology Proper (the constitution of man and the propagation of souls, etc.).

The hypostasis is the “person”, but is more literally “the underlying substanding objective reality of individual existence”. It’s very often referred to as substance, as it is for faith in Hebrews (Now faith is the substance - hypostasis - of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen).

This is the core ontology of man as “who”ness (individuality), and it underlies the ousia (the essence as wealth of beingness) as man’s “what”ness (humanity). The human hypostasis is man as a living soul; and the fact that the “who”ness is foundational for the “what”ness means Darwinian Theory is absolutely false and impossible.

The ousia (essence) of a being is its special (spee-cee-ahl, as in species) designation, and it cannot change for it is determined by that which underlies it. We are not individuals OF the human race, we are a human race because we are each individuals.

Man must be hypostatically joined to Christ while at least one aspect of life is present (either physical or spiritual), and since all are conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin (the state of being) then man is not truly a living soul (like Adam) until resurrected unto spiritual life.

Once someone is both spiritually AND physically dead, there is no means of restoring the constant communion that is spiritual life (zoe). So spiritual resurrection must occur during man’s physical life. Man is not a “real” hypostasis until he becomes a living soul as was Adam (before the Edenic lapse).

It’s a matter of lexical meaning for all the applicable words, demonstrating a functionality of divine order that was abrogated and must be restored in a specific manner. Redemption must happen exactly how God has prescribed, and it has to occur while there is physical life for spiritual life to be restored.

And all of this is why the redeemded will not be hurt of the second death. It’s also why we need not fear him who can kill the body, but him who can kill both body and soul in hell.

makes sense. bookmarked post.

my obvious question is, what about babies that die ?

 

[JudgeRightly]

makes sense. bookmarked post.

my obvious question is, what about babies that die ?

https://kgov.com/age-of-accountability

 

[ok doser]

makes sense. bookmarked post.

my obvious question is, what about babies that die ?

or those who die without hearing about God?

 

[JudgeRightly]

or those who die without hearing about God?

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. - Romans 2:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:12-16&version=NKJV

 

[ok doser]

thanks - i wanted to get pneuma's take on it

 

[way 2 go]

I never know who has which view, so (before I address Greek grammar and semantics) are you posting to support Annihilationism, Universalism, or “ECT” (still hate that term)?

clefty is of the Annihilationism group

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

makes sense. bookmarked post.

my obvious question is, what about babies that die ?

There’s no sin imputed where there is no law. Law (nomos) is distribution, allocation, allotment, apportionment. What is distributed, etc. is the righeous standard of God for inner character and outer conduct.

So this is similar to the scenario in which primitive unreached people are not culpable beyond natural law written on their hearts; or mentally diminshed persons and their limited comprehension abilities.

Young children are not competent to be prematurely adjudicated when law cannot be appropriately distributed to them.

(This is NOT the same as Arminian “age of accountability”, though that’s what they’re portraying.)

Law is the informative, not the performative; so this is NOT works based soteriology. Gospel is the performative, and God can perform this in infants and young childrent as they are taught.

(Obviously, those in a household of faith have a great early advantage over those raised without Law and Gospel.)

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

or those who die without hearing about God?

Judge Rightly has responded well. It’s a matter of whether law is present to inform (though law cannot perform unto salvation).

 

[way 2 go]

There’s no sin imputed where there is no law. Law (nomos) is distribution, allocation, allotment, apportionment. What is distributed, etc. is the righeous standard of God for inner character and outer conduct.

So this is similar to the scenario in which primitive unreached people are not culpable beyond natural law written on their hearts; or mentally diminshed persons and their limited comprehension abilities.

Young children are not competent to be prematurely adjudicated when law cannot be appropriately distributed to them.

(This is NOT the same as Arminian “age of accountability”, though that’s what they’re portraying.)

Law is the informative, not the performative; so this is NOT works based soteriology. Gospel is the performative, and God can perform this in infants and young childrent as they are taught.

(Obviously, those in a household of faith have a great early advantage over those raised without Law and Gospel.)

Man must be hypostatically joined to Christ while at least one aspect of life is present (either physical or spiritual), and since all are conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin (the state of being) then man is not truly a living soul (like Adam) until resurrected unto spiritual life.


not arguing just trying to understand "original sin" and how it applies to babies
and those who die without hearing about God?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Man must be hypostatically joined to Christ while at least one aspect of life is present (either physical or spiritual), and since all are conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin (the state of being) then man is not truly a living soul (like Adam) until resurrected unto spiritual life.


not arguing just trying to understand "original sin" and how it applies to babies
and those who die without hearing about God?

Both answered above, but I'll point out that Paul made mention of the former in the following passage.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. - Romans 7:7-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:7-12&version=NKJV

Paul was alive to God (innocent of sin), then when he reached the age of accountability, he sinned, and he died to God, being killed by the law.

 

[crossnote]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Yes. Although, I am of a dispensational persuasion, the Scriptures do not reveal there are dispensations in the Lake of Fire.

 

[way 2 go]

Both answered above, but I'll point out that Paul made mention of the former in the following passage.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. - Romans 7:7-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:7-12&version=NKJV

Paul was alive to God (innocent of sin), then when he reached the age of accountability, he sinned, and he died to God, being killed by the law.

if we explain original sin like this :

Man must be hypostatically joined to Christ while at least one aspect of life is present (either physical or spiritual), and since all are conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin (the state of being) then man is not truly a living soul (like Adam) until resurrected unto spiritual life.

babies have not been
hypostatically joined to Christ
and are
conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin

but Paul says

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

this seems contradictory to me , I'm missing somthing

 

[ok doser]

Yes. Although, I am of a dispensational persuasion, the Scriptures do not reveal there are dispensations in the Lake of Fire.

welcome crossnote

and take note that the poster you responded to is no longer active on the site


but feel free to talk to the rest of us

 

[JudgeRightly]

if we explain original sin like this :

Man must be hypostatically joined to Christ while at least one aspect of life is present (either physical or spiritual), and since all are conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin (the state of being) then man is not truly a living soul (like Adam) until resurrected unto spiritual life.

babies have not been
hypostatically joined to Christ
and are
conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin

but Paul says

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

this seems contradictory to me , I'm missing somthing

I recommend you read that kgov link I posted earlier. It gets into "original sin".

cheers!

 

[crossnote]

welcome crossnote

and take note that the poster you responded to is no longer active on the site


but feel free to talk to the rest of us

Thanks, I realize that with 550+ pages the OP may not be around but I threwit out there anyways to see if it would stick. lol

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Man must be hypostatically joined to Christ while at least one aspect of life is present (either physical or spiritual), and since all are conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin (the state of being) then man is not truly a living soul (like Adam) until resurrected unto spiritual life.


not arguing just trying to understand "original sin" and how it applies to babies
and those who die without hearing about God?

This doesn’t mean they are not conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin; it means the sin is not imputed to them.