Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

oatmeal

Well-known member
Then how do you understand Revelation 20:15, Revelation 14:10-11, and Matthew 25:41,46?

For what is eternally punishing (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11) about the future, "Gehenna" hell (Luke 12:5, Greek: G1067) is fire eternally burning the physical body, and worms eternally eating the physical body (Mark 9:46, Isaiah 66:24). The physical bodies of non-Christians in Gehenna need not be exactly like people have now, which do not regenerate parts of themselves if those parts are burned or eaten. For before non-Christians are cast into the Gehenna hell (also called the lake of fire), they will be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15, John 5:29b). And their new, physical resurrection bodies could eternally regenerate parts of themselves whenever those parts are burned or eaten. But then the regenerated parts could be burned or eaten again, only to regenerate again, only to be burned or eaten again, and so on, forever: an everlasting suffering (Revelation 14:10-11).

In Gehenna the fire will never go out (Mark 9:46). It will never run out of fuel, but will continue to punish non-Christians forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15). The fact that the fire will already be burning before the physical resurrection bodies of non-Christians are cast into it (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15) means that their bodies will not be the fire's fuel. The fire will have its own source of fuel by which it will burn/punish non-Christians forever (Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

The Gehenna is where the refuse, the garbage, the trash was burned outside of Jerusalem

The everlasting fire of the Gehenna is so called because as long as there is fuel for the fire, the fire lasts ever there is fuel to fuel it. But once the fire consumes all, the fire goes out.

God is not cruel, God is love. He had Jesus Christ, His son and prophet to tell Israel to love your enemies.

How do you love your enemies? By showing some mercy to them in spite of their wrong doings.

If they are worthy of death, you do not torture them slowly and forever, you simply let their own evil consume them

God is light and the Devil is a parasite. Those who reject God reject God's gift of life, thus they do not get life, but death. eternal death
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
The Gehenna is where the refuse, the garbage, the trash was burned outside of Jerusalem

The everlasting fire of the Gehenna is so called because as long as there is fuel for the fire, the fire lasts ever there is fuel to fuel it. But once the fire consumes all, the fire goes out.

God is not cruel, God is love. He had Jesus Christ, His son and prophet to tell Israel to love your enemies.

How do you love your enemies? By showing some mercy to them in spite of their wrong doings.

If they are worthy of death, you do not torture them slowly and forever, you simply let their own evil consume them

God is light and the Devil is a parasite. Those who reject God reject God's gift of life, thus they do not get life, but death. eternal death

It seems that in order for a God to eternally torment someone with fire forever, God would have to regenerate the flesh the skin the muscle tissue, etc that gets burned away. Sounds rather sadistic to me. Why not just let their own evil consume them and be done with it?
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
The Gehenna is where the refuse, the garbage, the trash was burned outside of Jerusalem

The everlasting fire of the Gehenna is so called because as long as there is fuel for the fire, the fire lasts ever there is fuel to fuel it. But once the fire consumes all, the fire goes out.

God is not cruel, God is love. He had Jesus Christ, His son and prophet to tell Israel to love your enemies.

How do you love your enemies? By showing some mercy to them in spite of their wrong doings.

If they are worthy of death, you do not torture them slowly and forever, you simply let their own evil consume them

God is light and the Devil is a parasite. Those who reject God reject God's gift of life, thus they do not get life, but death. eternal death

Dear Oatmeal: You were doing wonderful until those last two words.

There is no such animal as "eternal death"!

"He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth. For the LORD has spoken."

"For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

The Heavenly big gulp= death swallowed up in victory

"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Dear Oatmeal: You were doing wonderful until those last two words.

There is no such animal as "eternal death"!

"He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth. For the LORD has spoken."

"For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

The Heavenly big gulp= death swallowed up in victory

"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

Well, you have a point, that is for sure. The phrase "eternal death" is not found in scripture.

So how long is death? it can only be alleviated by being raised from the dead.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just to eternal life and rewards.

The second death is the resurrection to judgement and condemnation and the second death which lasts how long?

However, Death is swallowed up in victory for the believer, not for the unbeliever who refuses the life God offered to all.

Since they chose death over life, they get death.

See Deuteronomy 30:14-16,19-20

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

The underlying concept runs true throughout the word of God.

Genesis 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

If they had chosen to obey God, Adam and Eve would have been alive in paradise today, but they chose evil instead of good, they chose the lie instead of the truth

John 10:10

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

You either choose serving our adversary which choice subjects you to the will of the Devil which is to be stolen from, killed and destroyed

or

you follow and serve the lord Jesus Christ which results not only in life but life more abundant, which starts with eternal life instead of death

Even for the believer today, the choice is the same although we cannot lose our eternal life, our life and the joy of life can be forfeited by being carnally minded instead of spiritually minded

Romans 8:1-14 ...

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


For that matter, being eternally tormented does not sound like any kind of victory that God would reward you with
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
When you say, "for faith to be administered by God" it reminds me of what the Calvinists say.

Ah, I see. I understand.

My expression is based upon the fact that faith is a noun rather than a verb; so man’s believING is not faith.

But, to be honest, I have a hard time following what you mean, so you probably meant something else.

Fair enough. LOL. Thanks for all your contributions.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Dear Oatmeal: You were doing wonderful until those last two words.

There is no such animal as "eternal death"!

"He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth. For the LORD has spoken."

"For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

The Heavenly big gulp= death swallowed up in victory

"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

But you don’t know what thanatos (death) is or means. You think it’s something other than what it is.

“Danger, Will Robinson.” LOL
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
It seems that in order for a God to eternally torment someone with fire forever, God would have to regenerate the flesh the skin the muscle tissue, etc that gets burned away. Sounds rather sadistic to me. Why not just let their own evil consume them and be done with it?

God is not doing the tormentING, and it’s not the physical literality that you presume from this lapsed cosmos. It’s a different state of being.

(But I know you won’t listen to anything or anyone else except yourself and “The Way Whatever Whatever” cult.)
 

clefty

New member
Goody!

Thanatos katapino en zao

Yeah but...because “16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die be in a different state of being for eternity...”

Or something...
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Yeah but...because “16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die be in a different state of being for eternity...”

Or something...

It should be painfully obvious that “die” in Hebrew (as in Greek for NT references) CAN’T mean what you (and many others) ignorantly presume, because scripture clearly refers to “in that day” WHILE HE’S STILL PHYSICALLY ALIVE is when he will die.

Dead while alive. That means you and many others have NO idea what “death” means, and instead have substituted a false meaning based on shallow English deductions.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
God is not cruel, God is love. He had Jesus Christ, His son and prophet to tell Israel to love your enemies.

How do you love your enemies?


Num 14:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,
Num 14:27 "How long shall this wicked congregation grumble against me? I have heard the grumblings of the people of Israel, which they grumble against me.
Num 14:28 Say to them, 'As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you:
Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me,
...
Num 14:32 But as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness.


Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'"

Jud 1:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—
Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
 

clefty

New member
It should be painfully obvious that “die” in Hebrew (as in Greek for NT references) CAN’T mean what you (and many others) ignorantly presume, because scripture clearly refers to “in that day” WHILE HE’S STILL PHYSICALLY ALIVE is when he will die.

Dead while alive. That means you and many others have NO idea what “death” means, and instead have substituted a false meaning based on shallow English deductions.

Gen 3:21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live-” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”

What was man prevented from doing forever?

And what had to occur in order for him to do so ever again?
 
Last edited:

clefty

New member
Num 14:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,
Num 14:27 "How long shall this wicked congregation grumble against me? I have heard the grumblings of the people of Israel, which they grumble against me.
Num 14:28 Say to them, 'As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you:
Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me,
...
Num 14:32 But as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness.


Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'"

Jud 1:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—
Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Nothing there about those living mortal lives transferred across to living forever...or even into Abraham’s Bosom Motel

Dead bodies fall...verse 35 “they shall be destroyed...there they shall die...” still nothing about eternal tormenting...or constant destroying


Those enemies were slaughtered...not sent to an eternal tormenting...

And well punishment...is ended...notice S & G are NOT still undergoing a punishING...but a punishMENT...

But YES He can and will destroy both body AND soul...fear Him that can and will
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
And well punishment...is ended...notice S & G are NOT still undergoing a punishING...but a punishMENT...
judgment day hasn't occurred yet

Mat_11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
 

clefty

New member
judgment day hasn't occurred yet

Mat_11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Nobody said otherwise.

The point here is that the example of punishment with eternal fire is a fire that GOES OUT after judgement and sentencing and punishment is executed.

Is why it is called a punishMENT and NOT a punishING.

Yours would have them already begging for water long BEFORE judgment day.



“The wages of sin is death forever torment with eternal fire...and before judgement day...”

“...that whosoever believeth shall not perish burn forever with eternal fire torment...prior the day of judgment even”

There...helped yours...
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Nobody said otherwise.

The point here is that the example of punishment with eternal fire is a fire that GOES OUT after judgement and sentencing and punishment is executed.

Is why it is called a punishMENT and NOT a punishING.

Yours would have them already begging for water long BEFORE judgment day.



“The wages of sin is death forever torment with eternal fire...and before judgement day...”

“...that whosoever believeth shall not perish burn forever with eternal fire torment...prior the day of judgment even”

There...helped yours...
Sorry, but "punishment" and "punishing" are not mutually exclusive terms.
 
Top