John 3:13 -"even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN."

brandplucked

New member
John 3:13 KJB - “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.” (ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ)



ESV (NIV, NASB, NET, Holman, Jehovah Witness NWT, Catholic New Jerusalem) - "No one has ascended into heaven except him who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."



In the King James Bible John 3:13 has a testimony from our Lord Jesus Christ explaining Who He is. He says: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.“

This is the only verse I am aware of in all the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Himself (before His resurrection and ascension into heaven) witnesses to the fact of His own omnipresence. Omnipresence - or being in all places at the one and the same time - is an attribute that only belongs to the Godhead.

The Lord Jesus is both on the earth speaking to an individual named Nicodemus about the new birth that is required to enter the kingdom of God, AND He is at the same time “in heaven”. Only God is omnipresent, - everywhere at the same time - and John 3:13 is another in a long list of verses that have been tampered with in many modern versions.

The evidence for the inclusion of these inspired words in the Holy Bible is simply overwhelming, yet modern versions like the Catholic New Jerusalem bible of 1985, the Jehovah Witness New World Translation (they deny the deity of Christ), and the critical text versions like the RSV, NRSV, ESV, NIV, NASB, NET and Holman versions omit these precious words.

We also see the total inconsistency of what is foolishly called the “science” of textual criticism. Westcott and Hort omitted the words "WHICH IS IN HEAVEN (ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ) from their new Greek text, and so have all the UBS/Nestle-Aland/Vatican critical texts ever since.

Yet not even the previous “critical text” versions like the English Revised Version of 1881 nor the American Standard Version of 1901 omitted these words - "even the Son of man, WHO IS IN HEAVEN." (ASV 1901) They both still read just like the King James Bible.

A few other “critical text” versions are now coming out which also put the words back into their text, even though the UBS/Nestle-Aland/Vatican critical texts continue to omit these words, such as the new ISV (International Standard Version 2014 and The Voice 2012 - "the Son of man, WHO IS IN HEAVEN."



The Catholic Connection


The reading of “the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN” was in the previous Catholic versions like the Douay-Rheims of 1582, the Douay of 1950, the Jerusalem bible of 1968 and even the St. Joseph New American Bible of 1970.

It wasn’t until the Catholic New Jerusalem bible of 1985 came out that they removed these words from their text.

But there is more. The Catholics (who do not believe any Bible is infallible, like most “Evangelicals” today) have now come out with their latest version called The Sacred Bible Catholic Public Domain Version of 2009 and they have once again put the words back into their text. This latest version reads: "And no one has ascended to heaven, except the one who descended from heaven: THE SON OF MAN WHO IS IN HEAVEN."


The first major English version to omit the words “which is in heaven” was the liberal RSV of 1946 -1973, then followed by the NIV of 1973, 1984, 2011, the NASBs from 1960 to 1995, the ESV 2001-2011, Holman and NET to name but a few of the modern critical text Vatican Versions.

The words “which is in heaven” are found in the vast Majority of all Greek manuscripts including A, E, F, G, H, K, M, S, U, V, Gamma, Delta, Theta, Pi, Psi, the Old Latin copies of a, aur, b, c, f, ff2, j, l, q, r1.

It is also the reading of the Syriac Peshitta, Curetonian, Harkelian, some Coptic Boharic copies, the Armenian, Ethiopian, Georgian and Slavonic ancient versions.

Even Tischendorf included these words in his Greek text. It was Westcott and Hort who first removed them, but as we saw, not even the RV or ASV followed Westcott and Hort here but they both left the words "which is in heaven" in their translations.

It was also quoted or referenced by early church witnesses like Hippolytus, Origen, Adamantius, Eustathius, Dionysius, Amphilochius, Epiphanius, Chrysistom, Cyriil, Hesychius, Theodoret, John-Damascus, Hilary, Ambrosiaster, Ambrose, Chromatius, Jerome and Agustine. Many early Christian writers made reference to these words as found in John 3:13 -

"And no man hath ascended up into heaven, except him that descended from heaven, the Son of man, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN." Tatian (140 AD), Diatessaron

"No man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN." Hippolytus, (170-236 AD), Against Noetus

“Not any one hath ascended into heaven save He who came down from heaven, the Son of man WHO IS IN HEAVEN." Novatian (250 AD), Trinity 13

"How, then, does the Lord say, If ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before, and again, No man hath ascended up to heaven but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN?" Theodoret (380 AD), Dialogue 3

"For He saith, No man hath ascended up to Heaven, but the Son of Man, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN." Chrysostom (347-407 AD), Homily 27, 54

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN." Augustine (354-430 AD), Anti-Pelagian 1.59, 1.60

The few manuscripts that omit these words are the usual ones like Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, which don’t even agree with each other, and a couple of other Egyptian papyri like P66 and P75 which also disagree not only with the majority of texts but with each other as well, even in this single chapter. All of these are Egyptian texts.



Bible translations that include the words “even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.” are the following: the Anglo-Saxon Gospels 900 A.D. and 1200 A.D. - "Mannes sunu. se ðe com of heofonum.", the Wycliffe Bible of 1395 - “And no man stieth in to heuene, but he that cam doun fro heuene, mannys sone THAT IS IN HEAUENE.", Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops’ Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587 - "that Sonne of man WHIH IS IN HEAVEN.", the Beza N.T. 1599, Mace N.T. 1729, Wesley’s translation of 1755, Living Oracles 1835, Darby 1890, Youngs 1898, Murdock 1852, Etheridge 1849 and Lamsa's 1933 translations of the Syriac Peshitta, The Revised New Testament 1862, The Alford N.T. 1870, The Revised English Bible 1877, Godbey N.T. 1902, Weymouth N.T. 1912, New Life Bible 1969, Amplified Bible 1987, the NKJV 1982, The Word of Yah 1993, Interlinear Greek N.T. 1997 (Larry Pierce), the Lawrie Translation 1998, God's First Truth 1999, the Third Millenium Bible 1998, The World English Bible 2000, Sacred Scriptures Family of Yah 2001, the Tomson N.T. 2002, Green's Interlinear 2005, The Pickering N.T. 2005, The Resurrection Life N.T. 2005, The Online Interlinear 2010 (André de Mol), The Voice 2012, the Jubilee Bible 2010, The New European Version 2010, The Aramaic N.T. 2011, The Far Above All Translation 2011, the Natural Israelite Bible of 2012, The World English Bible 2012, The Interlinear Hebrew-Greek Scriptures 2011 (Mebust), The Hebraic Roots Bible 2012, the Biblos Interlinear Bible 2013, The English Majority Text 2013 (Paul Esposito), The International Standard Version 2014, the Hebrew Names Bible 2014, The Modern Literal N.T. 2014 and The Modern English Version 2014.



Foreign language versions that include the words “which are in heaven” are the Latin Vulgate of 382 A.D. - “et nemo ascendit in caelum nisi qui descendit de caelo Filius hominis QUI EST IN CAELO”, Lamsa’s translation of the Syriac Peshitta - “No man has ascended to heaven, except he who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.”, the Portuguese A Biblia Sagrada and the Portuguese Almeida Corrigida 2009 - “o Filho do homem, QUE ESTA NO CEU.”, the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras 1569, Cipriano de Valera 1602, the Spanish Reina Valeras of 1909, 1960, 1995 (But the 2011 edition omits them, thanks to Eugene Nida) - “Nadie subió al cielo sino el que descendió del cielo, el Hijo del hombre, QUE ESTA EN EL CIELO.”, and the 1997 La Biblia de las Américas (put out by the Lockman Foundation -NASB), the French Martin 1744, Louis Segond 21 of 2007 and Ostervald of 1996 - “Personne n'est monté au ciel, sinon celui qui est descendu du ciel, le Fils de l'homme QUI EST DANS LE CIEL.”, the Hundarian Károli, the Italian Diodati of 1649 and the Nuova Diodati of 1991 as well as the 2006 Nuova Riveduta - “ Or nessuno è salito in cielo, se non colui che è disceso dal cielo, cioè il Figlio dell'uomo CHE E NEL CIELO."



Also containing the words "the Son of Man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" are the Norwegian Det Norsk Bibelselskap, Luthers’s German Bible of 1545 and the 2000 Schlachter Bible - “dem Sohn des Menschen, der im Himmel ist.”, the Romanian Cornilescu Bible and the 2006 Noua Traducere În Limba Român - “ Fiul omului, care este în cer.”, the Russian Synodal Version and the Victor Zhuromsky Bible, the Arabic Smith & Van Dyke Bible, the Africaans Bible, the Tagalog Ang Salita ng Diyos 1998 -"Maliban sa Anak ng Tao na nasa langit.",

the Modern Greek Bible and the Modern Hebrew Bible -

the Modern Greek Bible and the Greek text used by the Greek Orthodox churches all over the world - "καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ."

and the Modern Hebrew Bible - "ואיש לא עלה השמימה בלתי אם אשר ירד מן השמים בן האדם אשר הוא בשמים׃"



Notes from the internet - Refuting the Bible Agnostics

After posting this study on John 3:13 a bible agnostic asked me: "Was Jesus' body in heaven then Will?"

To whom I answered: "Jesus, as God, was in a body on the earth and in heaven as a spirit. He is God. Same thing when God came down in a body and spoke with Abraham. Did God then cease to be in heaven during those hours? See Genesis chapter 18."

You can also consult many commentaries on this verse.


John Gill comments on John 3:13 - "even the son of man which is in heaven" - at the same time he was then on earth: not that he was in heaven in his human nature, and as he was the son of man; but in his divine nature, as he was the Son of God.

Adam Clarke explains in his commentary - "Lest a wrong meaning should be taken from the foregoing expression, and it should be imagined that, in order to manifest himself upon earth he must necessarily leave heaven; our blessed Lord qualifies it by adding, the Son of man who is in heaven; pointing out, by this, the ubiquity or omnipresence of his nature: a character essentially belonging to God; for no being can possibly exist in more places than one at a time, but HE who fills the heavens and the earth."

Barne's Notes on the New Testament says: "Which is in heaven. This is a very remarkable expression. Jesus, the Son of man, was then bodily on earth conversing with Nicodemus; yet he declares that he is at the same time in heaven. This can be understood only as referring to the fact that he had two natures--that his divine nature was in heaven, and his human nature on earth."

Matthew Henry comments on this verse saying: "We have here an intimation of Christ's two distinct natures in one person: his divine nature, in which he came down from heaven; his human nature, in which he is the Son of man; and that union of those two, in that while he is the Son of man yet he is in heaven...That he is in heaven. Now at this time, when he is talking with Nicodemus on earth, yet, as God, he is in heaven. The Son of man, as such, was not in heaven till his ascension; but he that was the Son of man was now, by his divine nature, every where present, and particularly in heaven."

John Calvin remarks: "as it very frequently happens, on account of the unity of the Person of Christ, that what properly belongs to one nature is applied to another, we ought not to seek any other solution. Christ, therefore, who is in heaven, hath clothed himself with our flesh, that, by stretching out his brotherly hand to us, he may raise us to heaven along with him."

Matthew Poole's commentary on the Bible - "who is in heaven, by virtue of the personal union of the two natures in the Redeemer; as we read. Acts 20:28, the church, which he hath purchased with his own blood. By reason of the personal union of the two natures in Christ, though the properties of each nature remain distinct, yet the properties of each nature are sometimes attributed to the whole person."

John Wesley comments: "Who is in heaven - Therefore he is omnipresent; else he could not be in heaven and on earth at once. This is a plain instance of what is usually termed the communication of properties between the Divine and human nature; whereby what is proper to the Divine nature is spoken concerning the human, and what is proper to the human is, as here, spoken of the Divine."

The King James Bible is right, as always. Don't settle for an inferior substitute.

Will Kinney

Return to articles - http://brandplucked.webs.com/kjbarticles.htm
 

Danoh

New member
Good chockfull of info, brandplucked.

A passage I've unavoidably ducked.

Think I'll study it out in my KJV.

See what else there is to see.

The Son - also in Heaven.

Right there - in my 1611.

Ah, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

You know what I mean.

:)
 

OCTOBER23

New member
WHICH IS IN HEAVEN

That is where HE is from and where HE lives and has lived for a long time.:king:
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Good chockfull of info, brandplucked.

A passage I've unavoidably ducked.

Think I'll study it out in my KJV.

See what else there is to see.

The Son - also in Heaven.

Right there - in my 1611.

Ah, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

You know what I mean.

:)

Studyin' it out would be a fine idea.

Since it does not prove Jesus' omnipresence.


Luke 8:45 NIV


45 "Who touched me?" Jesus asked. When they all denied it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you."



Luke 8:45 KJV


45 And Jesus said , Who touched me? When all denied , Peter and they that were with him said , Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
John 3:13 KJB - “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.” (ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ)



ESV (NIV, NASB, NET, Holman, Jehovah Witness NWT, Catholic New Jerusalem) - "No one has ascended into heaven except him who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."



In the King James Bible John 3:13 has a testimony from our Lord Jesus Christ explaining Who He is. He says: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.“

This is the only verse I am aware of in all the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Himself (before His resurrection and ascension into heaven) witnesses to the fact of His own omnipresence. Omnipresence - or being in all places at the one and the same time - is an attribute that only belongs to the Godhead.

The Lord Jesus is both on the earth speaking to an individual named Nicodemus about the new birth that is required to enter the kingdom of God, AND He is at the same time “in heaven”. Only God is omnipresent, - everywhere at the same time - and John 3:13 is another in a long list of verses that have been tampered with in many modern versions.

The evidence for the inclusion of these inspired words in the Holy Bible is simply overwhelming, yet modern versions like the Catholic New Jerusalem bible of 1985, the Jehovah Witness New World Translation (they deny the deity of Christ), and the critical text versions like the RSV, NRSV, ESV, NIV, NASB, NET and Holman versions omit these precious words.

We also see the total inconsistency of what is foolishly called the “science” of textual criticism. Westcott and Hort omitted the words "WHICH IS IN HEAVEN (ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ) from their new Greek text, and so have all the UBS/Nestle-Aland/Vatican critical texts ever since.

Yet not even the previous “critical text” versions like the English Revised Version of 1881 nor the American Standard Version of 1901 omitted these words - "even the Son of man, WHO IS IN HEAVEN." (ASV 1901) They both still read just like the King James Bible.

A few other “critical text” versions are now coming out which also put the words back into their text, even though the UBS/Nestle-Aland/Vatican critical texts continue to omit these words, such as the new ISV (International Standard Version 2014 and The Voice 2012 - "the Son of man, WHO IS IN HEAVEN."



The Catholic Connection


The reading of “the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN” was in the previous Catholic versions like the Douay-Rheims of 1582, the Douay of 1950, the Jerusalem bible of 1968 and even the St. Joseph New American Bible of 1970.

It wasn’t until the Catholic New Jerusalem bible of 1985 came out that they removed these words from their text.

But there is more. The Catholics (who do not believe any Bible is infallible, like most “Evangelicals” today) have now come out with their latest version called The Sacred Bible Catholic Public Domain Version of 2009 and they have once again put the words back into their text. This latest version reads: "And no one has ascended to heaven, except the one who descended from heaven: THE SON OF MAN WHO IS IN HEAVEN."


The first major English version to omit the words “which is in heaven” was the liberal RSV of 1946 -1973, then followed by the NIV of 1973, 1984, 2011, the NASBs from 1960 to 1995, the ESV 2001-2011, Holman and NET to name but a few of the modern critical text Vatican Versions.

The words “which is in heaven” are found in the vast Majority of all Greek manuscripts including A, E, F, G, H, K, M, S, U, V, Gamma, Delta, Theta, Pi, Psi, the Old Latin copies of a, aur, b, c, f, ff2, j, l, q, r1.

It is also the reading of the Syriac Peshitta, Curetonian, Harkelian, some Coptic Boharic copies, the Armenian, Ethiopian, Georgian and Slavonic ancient versions.

Even Tischendorf included these words in his Greek text. It was Westcott and Hort who first removed them, but as we saw, not even the RV or ASV followed Westcott and Hort here but they both left the words "which is in heaven" in their translations.

It was also quoted or referenced by early church witnesses like Hippolytus, Origen, Adamantius, Eustathius, Dionysius, Amphilochius, Epiphanius, Chrysistom, Cyriil, Hesychius, Theodoret, John-Damascus, Hilary, Ambrosiaster, Ambrose, Chromatius, Jerome and Agustine. Many early Christian writers made reference to these words as found in John 3:13 -

"And no man hath ascended up into heaven, except him that descended from heaven, the Son of man, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN." Tatian (140 AD), Diatessaron

"No man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN." Hippolytus, (170-236 AD), Against Noetus

“Not any one hath ascended into heaven save He who came down from heaven, the Son of man WHO IS IN HEAVEN." Novatian (250 AD), Trinity 13

"How, then, does the Lord say, If ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before, and again, No man hath ascended up to heaven but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN?" Theodoret (380 AD), Dialogue 3

"For He saith, No man hath ascended up to Heaven, but the Son of Man, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN." Chrysostom (347-407 AD), Homily 27, 54

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN." Augustine (354-430 AD), Anti-Pelagian 1.59, 1.60

The few manuscripts that omit these words are the usual ones like Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, which don’t even agree with each other, and a couple of other Egyptian papyri like P66 and P75 which also disagree not only with the majority of texts but with each other as well, even in this single chapter. All of these are Egyptian texts.



Bible translations that include the words “even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.” are the following: the Anglo-Saxon Gospels 900 A.D. and 1200 A.D. - "Mannes sunu. se ðe com of heofonum.", the Wycliffe Bible of 1395 - “And no man stieth in to heuene, but he that cam doun fro heuene, mannys sone THAT IS IN HEAUENE.", Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops’ Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587 - "that Sonne of man WHIH IS IN HEAVEN.", the Beza N.T. 1599, Mace N.T. 1729, Wesley’s translation of 1755, Living Oracles 1835, Darby 1890, Youngs 1898, Murdock 1852, Etheridge 1849 and Lamsa's 1933 translations of the Syriac Peshitta, The Revised New Testament 1862, The Alford N.T. 1870, The Revised English Bible 1877, Godbey N.T. 1902, Weymouth N.T. 1912, New Life Bible 1969, Amplified Bible 1987, the NKJV 1982, The Word of Yah 1993, Interlinear Greek N.T. 1997 (Larry Pierce), the Lawrie Translation 1998, God's First Truth 1999, the Third Millenium Bible 1998, The World English Bible 2000, Sacred Scriptures Family of Yah 2001, the Tomson N.T. 2002, Green's Interlinear 2005, The Pickering N.T. 2005, The Resurrection Life N.T. 2005, The Online Interlinear 2010 (André de Mol), The Voice 2012, the Jubilee Bible 2010, The New European Version 2010, The Aramaic N.T. 2011, The Far Above All Translation 2011, the Natural Israelite Bible of 2012, The World English Bible 2012, The Interlinear Hebrew-Greek Scriptures 2011 (Mebust), The Hebraic Roots Bible 2012, the Biblos Interlinear Bible 2013, The English Majority Text 2013 (Paul Esposito), The International Standard Version 2014, the Hebrew Names Bible 2014, The Modern Literal N.T. 2014 and The Modern English Version 2014.



Foreign language versions that include the words “which are in heaven” are the Latin Vulgate of 382 A.D. - “et nemo ascendit in caelum nisi qui descendit de caelo Filius hominis QUI EST IN CAELO”, Lamsa’s translation of the Syriac Peshitta - “No man has ascended to heaven, except he who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.”, the Portuguese A Biblia Sagrada and the Portuguese Almeida Corrigida 2009 - “o Filho do homem, QUE ESTA NO CEU.”, the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras 1569, Cipriano de Valera 1602, the Spanish Reina Valeras of 1909, 1960, 1995 (But the 2011 edition omits them, thanks to Eugene Nida) - “Nadie subió al cielo sino el que descendió del cielo, el Hijo del hombre, QUE ESTA EN EL CIELO.”, and the 1997 La Biblia de las Américas (put out by the Lockman Foundation -NASB), the French Martin 1744, Louis Segond 21 of 2007 and Ostervald of 1996 - “Personne n'est monté au ciel, sinon celui qui est descendu du ciel, le Fils de l'homme QUI EST DANS LE CIEL.”, the Hundarian Károli, the Italian Diodati of 1649 and the Nuova Diodati of 1991 as well as the 2006 Nuova Riveduta - “ Or nessuno è salito in cielo, se non colui che è disceso dal cielo, cioè il Figlio dell'uomo CHE E NEL CIELO."



Also containing the words "the Son of Man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" are the Norwegian Det Norsk Bibelselskap, Luthers’s German Bible of 1545 and the 2000 Schlachter Bible - “dem Sohn des Menschen, der im Himmel ist.”, the Romanian Cornilescu Bible and the 2006 Noua Traducere În Limba Român - “ Fiul omului, care este în cer.”, the Russian Synodal Version and the Victor Zhuromsky Bible, the Arabic Smith & Van Dyke Bible, the Africaans Bible, the Tagalog Ang Salita ng Diyos 1998 -"Maliban sa Anak ng Tao na nasa langit.",

the Modern Greek Bible and the Modern Hebrew Bible -

the Modern Greek Bible and the Greek text used by the Greek Orthodox churches all over the world - "καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ."

and the Modern Hebrew Bible - "ואיש לא עלה השמימה בלתי אם אשר ירד מן השמים בן האדם אשר הוא בשמים׃"



Notes from the internet - Refuting the Bible Agnostics

After posting this study on John 3:13 a bible agnostic asked me: "Was Jesus' body in heaven then Will?"

To whom I answered: "Jesus, as God, was in a body on the earth and in heaven as a spirit. He is God. Same thing when God came down in a body and spoke with Abraham. Did God then cease to be in heaven during those hours? See Genesis chapter 18."

You can also consult many commentaries on this verse.


John Gill comments on John 3:13 - "even the son of man which is in heaven" - at the same time he was then on earth: not that he was in heaven in his human nature, and as he was the son of man; but in his divine nature, as he was the Son of God.

Adam Clarke explains in his commentary - "Lest a wrong meaning should be taken from the foregoing expression, and it should be imagined that, in order to manifest himself upon earth he must necessarily leave heaven; our blessed Lord qualifies it by adding, the Son of man who is in heaven; pointing out, by this, the ubiquity or omnipresence of his nature: a character essentially belonging to God; for no being can possibly exist in more places than one at a time, but HE who fills the heavens and the earth."

Barne's Notes on the New Testament says: "Which is in heaven. This is a very remarkable expression. Jesus, the Son of man, was then bodily on earth conversing with Nicodemus; yet he declares that he is at the same time in heaven. This can be understood only as referring to the fact that he had two natures--that his divine nature was in heaven, and his human nature on earth."

Matthew Henry comments on this verse saying: "We have here an intimation of Christ's two distinct natures in one person: his divine nature, in which he came down from heaven; his human nature, in which he is the Son of man; and that union of those two, in that while he is the Son of man yet he is in heaven...That he is in heaven. Now at this time, when he is talking with Nicodemus on earth, yet, as God, he is in heaven. The Son of man, as such, was not in heaven till his ascension; but he that was the Son of man was now, by his divine nature, every where present, and particularly in heaven."

John Calvin remarks: "as it very frequently happens, on account of the unity of the Person of Christ, that what properly belongs to one nature is applied to another, we ought not to seek any other solution. Christ, therefore, who is in heaven, hath clothed himself with our flesh, that, by stretching out his brotherly hand to us, he may raise us to heaven along with him."

Matthew Poole's commentary on the Bible - "who is in heaven, by virtue of the personal union of the two natures in the Redeemer; as we read. Acts 20:28, the church, which he hath purchased with his own blood. By reason of the personal union of the two natures in Christ, though the properties of each nature remain distinct, yet the properties of each nature are sometimes attributed to the whole person."

John Wesley comments: "Who is in heaven - Therefore he is omnipresent; else he could not be in heaven and on earth at once. This is a plain instance of what is usually termed the communication of properties between the Divine and human nature; whereby what is proper to the Divine nature is spoken concerning the human, and what is proper to the human is, as here, spoken of the Divine."

The King James Bible is right, as always. Don't settle for an inferior substitute.

Will Kinney

Return to articles - http://brandplucked.webs.com/kjbarticles.htm

did you type all that yourself ? kudos if so, hard work. i don't have time to read posts that long, or, i should say, the discipline and patience. but i do understand the scripture. i'm sure your long post is good, but i don't know how many here will enjoy it. i did read the first few paragraphs; snoozer - :yawn:
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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did you type all that yourself ? kudos if so, hard work. i don't have time to read posts that long, or, i should say, the discipline and patience. but i do understand the scripture. i'm sure your long post is good, but i don't know how many here will enjoy it. i did read the first few paragraphs; snoozer - :yawn:
Why not spare the extra bits and simply quote a portion of a long post when adding these sort of comments?

Just quote a portion and terminate that portion with the end quote tag, [/quote] and then add your comments? After all, who will read a long quote with some extra snippet at the end? :AMR:

AMR
 

chair

Well-known member
Welcome back, brandplucked. Sorry to see that you are still wasting your time with the KJV-word-of-god nonsense. But thank God, you are healthy enough to continue doing so. Enjoy!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
John 3:13 KJB - “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.” (ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ)

But notice, He is claiming to be the Son of Man in Both places ! When speaking of Him as the Son of Man, that is not His Deity being referred to, but His Manhood ! So the question, how is He both a Man on Earth speaking to Nicodemus and at the same time, a Man in Heaven ?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
John Gill comments on John 3:13 - "even the son of man which is in heaven" - at the same time he was then on earth: not that he was in heaven in his human nature, and as he was the son of man; but in his divine nature, as he was the Son of God.

Adam Clarke explains in his commentary - "Lest a wrong meaning should be taken from the foregoing expression, and it should be imagined that, in order to manifest himself upon earth he must necessarily leave heaven; our blessed Lord qualifies it by adding, the Son of man who is in heaven; pointing out, by this, the ubiquity or omnipresence of his nature: a character essentially belonging to God; for no being can possibly exist in more places than one at a time, but HE who fills the heavens and the earth."

Barne's Notes on the New Testament says: "Which is in heaven. This is a very remarkable expression. Jesus, the Son of man, was then bodily on earth conversing with Nicodemus; yet he declares that he is at the same time in heaven. This can be understood only as referring to the fact that he had two natures--that his divine nature was in heaven, and his human nature on earth."

Matthew Henry comments on this verse saying: "We have here an intimation of Christ's two distinct natures in one person: his divine nature, in which he came down from heaven; his human nature, in which he is the Son of man; and that union of those two, in that while he is the Son of man yet he is in heaven...That he is in heaven. Now at this time, when he is talking with Nicodemus on earth, yet, as God, he is in heaven. The Son of man, as such, was not in heaven till his ascension; but he that was the Son of man was now, by his divine nature, every where present, and particularly in heaven."

John Calvin remarks: "as it very frequently happens, on account of the unity of the Person of Christ, that what properly belongs to one nature is applied to another, we ought not to seek any other solution. Christ, therefore, who is in heaven, hath clothed himself with our flesh, that, by stretching out his brotherly hand to us, he may raise us to heaven along with him."

Matthew Poole's commentary on the Bible - "who is in heaven, by virtue of the personal union of the two natures in the Redeemer; as we read. Acts 20:28, the church, which he hath purchased with his own blood. By reason of the personal union of the two natures in Christ, though the properties of each nature remain distinct, yet the properties of each nature are sometimes attributed to the whole person."

John Wesley comments: "Who is in heaven - Therefore he is omnipresent; else he could not be in heaven and on earth at once. This is a plain instance of what is usually termed the communication of properties between the Divine and human nature; whereby what is proper to the Divine nature is spoken concerning the human, and what is proper to the human is, as here, spoken of the Divine."

It is interesting that not one of these famous men had much idea about the presence of God upon Jesus, which Spirit is the presence of Heaven itself.

I see that the presence of God is being manifested in many churches today especially the young church.

and it will increase.

LA
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Ask Jerry...

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4361568#post4361568

You two are perfect bedfellows here.

Sigh.

AMR

Thats not exactly the same comment. Jerry is saying that Jesus was a Man in Heaven before the Incarnation, which I do agree with, I have stated that plenty of times over the years, even created threads on it, however, my statement is that Jesus, as the Son of Man, was both speaking to Nicodemus and being in Heaven at the same time according to that verse!

Jerry may not agree with that !
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Thats not exactly the same comment. Jerry is saying that Jesus was a Man in Heaven before the Incarnation, which I do agree with, I have stated that plenty of times over the years, even created threads on it, however, my statement is that Jesus, as the Son of Man, was both speaking to Nicodemus and being in Heaven at the same time according to that verse!

Jerry may not agree with that !


Here's a good example.


A scripture that sets forth the Deity and Godhead of Christ, meaning that He is God of very God, Jehovah, it is Jn 3:13

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

This scripture does indicate that even while Jesus Christ is in the Capacity of Mediator Man 1 Tim 2:5 upon the earth, even the Son of God, or the Son of Man, even while He was then upon the earth yet speaking to nicodemus, that at the same time in His Absolute Godhead and Divine Nature , He was in Heaven, for He is the Special Unique God Man 1 Tim 3:16


http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86161&page=62#922

~~~~~
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Yes, However in that quotation I more than likely was making a case for the Deity of Christ which that verse can teach, however I am now making the scripture case by it that He was the Man Mediator both at the Time He spake to Nicodemus and in Heaven ! You follow me ?

Yep, I follow.
Should have read the entire thread first! ☺

~~~~~
 

RBBI

New member
But notice, He is claiming to be the Son of Man in Both places ! When speaking of Him as the Son of Man, that is not His Deity being referred to, but His Manhood ! So the question, how is He both a Man on Earth speaking to Nicodemus and at the same time, a Man in Heaven ?

Easy. All you need is the revelation of who the Son of God IS. He is not just Yeshua the man of flesh (son of man) that enrobed Him, He is the holy Seed of God, THAT IS A SPIRIT MAN. Remember all seeds must bear fruit after their own kind, and His own kind was the Father, WHO IS A SPIRIT.

Peter got it right, and Yeshya said FLESH AND BLOOD (including the flesh man standing there in front of him) hath not revealed this to you, but My Father which is in heaven = spiritual revelation. And by the way, THIS revelation is the rock He built His body on, not on Peter himself.

There was absolutely no reason for Peter to believe that Yeshua, a man, could even be a son of God, after all, Peter was a JEW, and it would have been a nearly blasphemous concept.

Just like everything else, the flesh veils the Spirit and it takes a spiritual revelation to perceive the Truth. Just like the one Paul had on the road. HE SAW NO MAN, but heard the Spirit Seed tell him he was persecuting HIS body. His body, which is SPIRIT also, in the flesh of the believers he was persecuting.

Reread the scriptures with this understanding, pressing past your carnal mind preconceived conclusions about WHO is talking, and it's quite eye-opening. After all, didn't He say He only spoke what He heard the Spirit speak?
 
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Danoh

New member
Here ya go, brandplucked...

Jesus is basically asserting that He is the One Whom the Law and the Prophets did say should come from Heaven - the Christ that Nicodemus, as a teacher of the Law and the Prophets over Isra'el, should have known, was for to come from Heaven...

John 3:

10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 1:

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, [and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,] full of grace and truth.
15. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18. No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

His showing up unto His own [Isra'el] basically declared unto them "Behold the truth of that grace your Father in Heaven promised in the Law and the Prophets - behold His only begotten Son!"

19. And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20. And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

45. Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

49. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Nicodemus should have known all this that even those within Israel - their "lost sheep" Jer. 50: 6-7, Matt. 15:24, those within that nation considered "no people" by their very rulers - they had been able to see, as in Andrew's case:

41. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

These supposed nobodies, these mere "fishermen" had been able to see what the supposed wisest of Israel had not been able to, for hardness of their heart.

Romans 10:

19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

John 17:

1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Philippians 2:

5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Easy. All you need is the revelation of who the Son of God IS. He is not just Jesus the man of flesh (son of man) that enrobed Him, He is the holy Seed of God, THAT IS A SPIRIT MAN. Remember all seeds must bear fruit after their own kind, and His own kind was the Father, WHO IS A SPIRIT.

Peter got it right, and Jesus said FLESH AND BLOOD (including the flesh man standing there in front of him) hath not revealed this to you, but My Father which is in heaven = spiritual revelation.

There was absolutely no reason for Peter to believe that Jesus, a man, could even be a son of God, after all, Peter was a JEW, and it would have been a nearly blasphemous concept.

Just like everything else, the flesh veils the Spirit and it takes a spiritual revelation to perceive the Truth. Just like the one Paul had on the road. HE SAW NO MAN, but heard the Spirit Seed tell him he was persecuting HIS body. His body, which is SPIRIT also, in the flesh of the believers he was persecuting.

Reread the scriptures with this understanding, pressing past your carnal mind preconceived conclusions about WHO is talking, and it's quite eye-opening. After all, didn't He say He only spoke what He heard the Spirit speak?

Did you understand my point?
 
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