liberals "cause others to sin" which leads them to Hell

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
wishing it won't get it done

what are you doing besides wishing?

I'm trying to convince people to reject your entire system, chrys. Republicans support the system. If someone is anti-abortion, but still thinks government has the right to make the decision, they aren't on their side. Almost all Republicans are hardline legal positivists.

I'd vote for Rand Paul as an incremental measure. But none of the other GOP candidates are worthy of consideration.
 

republicanchick

New member
The problem is that most Republicans aren't really that pro-life.

I don't subscribe to "lesser of two evils" voting, but even if you do, you should be honest about the fact that the GOP gets a lot of issues wrong.

How are anti-same sex marriage laws consistent with small government?



Every government program, without exception, is funded by compulsory taxation. Because people who are taxed do not consent to having their money taken by force, all taxes are theft and should be abolished.

Every government law is an act of force, and the vast majority of them have nothing to do with protecting people or their property. Anti-drug laws, gun control laws, laws against prostitution, zoning laws, laws requiring the wearing of seatbelts, laws regulating how much responsibility a parent can give a child, an so forth (this is not an exhaustive list) have nothing to do with protecting people or their property and thus constitute either armed robbery or kidnapping when enforced. All such laws should be abolished. The only laws that should be enforced deal with acts of aggression against another person or their property. And those laws should be enforced by voluntarily funded police, and voluntarily funded courts.

And yes, this includes the unborn. Abortion is a crime against humanity. Some libertarians do not realize this, just as some small government advocates in the 1850's thought slavery should be legal because "small government." They are wrong. But their being wrong is no excuse for any of the numerous things government does that have nothing to do with protecting life or property.

I am a libertarian voluntarist. Neither liberal nor conservative. Both liberal and conservative ideologies are anti-Biblical and anti-godly.



You hear something I say, apply it to something that I apparently didn't address, and then assume I don't agree with you just because I didn't mention it.

Roe v Wade should be abolished. Abortion is evil. Abortion should be punishable by death.

hey, I like this post, can't argue with it. But I didn't like the previous post, obviously, so... um... I don't know. But one thing's for sure, you would be a hypocrite if you voted D the last several pres elections



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republicanchick

New member
Ideally either the community itself (as was done with Israel) or with voluntarily funded police forces.



Both the woman and the "doctor" because both are guilty of murder.

wow, this is getting scary. I am agreeing w/ you.

murder is murder

don't want to have a baby? don't ... uh... get "exposed"

raped? give the child up to a loving couple who can't have kids.. no need to murder an innocent human being (not that there ever is...)



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republicanchick

New member
I'm trying to convince people to reject your entire system, chrys. Republicans support the system. If someone is anti-abortion, but still thinks government has the right to make the decision, they aren't on their side. Almost all Republicans are hardline legal positivists.

I'd vote for Rand Paul as an incremental measure. But none of the other GOP candidates are worthy of consideration.

didn't Rand go loopy on us over immigration or some such thing? I have this vague memory... hmmmm... (no spring chicken, ya know...)



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republicanchick

New member
I'm trying to convince people to reject your entire system, chrys. Republicans support the system. If someone is anti-abortion, but still thinks government has the right to make the decision, they aren't on their side. n.

the government has an interest in preserving peace and general well being, should be given enforcement rights vis a vis HUMAN Life, namely its protection.

If a state said abortion is OK, the Federal gov should say NO b/c it goes against the Constitution ("Life, liberty...")

the problem is that a bunch of loony tunes are always in power..



almost always... whatever
 

republicanchick

New member
I'm trying to convince people to reject your entire system, chrys. Republicans support the system. .

a true R does not, if the system is corrupt. I think of Ted Cruz and a few others who fight the behemoth system... sometimes to no avail but he keeps at it... may be 1 of the few in Congress who still has a conscience...


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Christian Liberty

Well-known member
hey, I like this post, can't argue with it. But I didn't like the previous post, obviously, so... um... I don't know. But one thing's for sure, you would be a hypocrite if you voted D the last several pres elections



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I wasn't old enough to vote. But, I didn't support Obama. I supported Gary Johnson. I'm somewhat iffy on that now. I know he's technically "pro-choice" but his version of being "pro-choice" was basically "I'll be as pro-life as the average Republican but I'll be honest about the fact that that doesn't actually mean banning abortion." As governor of New Mexico he signed every bill the pro-life groups asked him to sign. The main reason why I could tolerate voting for him despite his weak abortion stance is that he would leave abortion to the states. So at least we could fight to ban abortion in some states, which would be movement in the right direction. I could respect someone who doesn't want to do that, but that's basically what politics is. There is nothing perfect about it (Ron Paul was pretty darn close in policy terms, though still not absolutely perfect. He's also incredibly rare.)

But the thing is, he's also a lot better than most Republicans on other issues. He's against torture. He's against collateral damage. He's in favor of cutting government spending by 43%. He supports legalizing marijuana (smaller government.) He is against all gun control, which Romney clearly was not. He's in favor of repealing the Patriot Act and toning down the surveilance state. I'm not saying Johnson was the ideal candidate. He supported "FairTax" which is a bad idea because it makes tax collecting easier and makes some people pay more taxes (taxes should be reduced on everyone, ideally to 0%.) He supports making a federal law that legalizes gay marriage, while gay marriage is constitutionally a state issue and ideally government would not get involved in the marriage debate (which is different than government endorsing gay marriages.) He doesn't want to legalize all drugs (not small government enough.) He didn't seem to want to cut government spending by more than 43%. So, I'm not saying Johnson was perfect. I do think he would have actually moved America in a positive direction rather than simply, at best, moving America in a negative direction more slowly (which is the absolute best Romney might have done.)

The counter-argument would be that Gary Johnson had no chance to win. While true, I believe this argument is invalid for several reasons.

First of all, Mitt Romney was an evil candidate. Because he was an evil candidate, it would be wrong, per Romans 3:8, to vote for him (note: In saying that Romney was an evil candidate, I am not denying that Obama was an evil candidate) no matter what the results would be I say Gary Johnson wasn't an evil candidate, because, while not perfect, he would actually have reduced government control across the board. Romney, by contrast, did want to reduce government in some areas, but he actually wanted to expand it in others. He would increase the degree by which government would control our lives. And, he didn't think Obama was killing enough people overseas, he would have killed more. That's evil.

Second of all, pragmatically, voting for Romney would not be a means to the end of more liberty for Americans and American lives saved.

Third of all, continuing to vote for lame Republican candidates tells the Republicans that you are happy with the candidates they are giving you. If Gary Johnson were to have gotten 5% of the vote and Obama won by 4%, that would have told the Republicans they need to do something different, move closer to Johnson's platform, in order to win.

I think your issue with me is not so much my views as that I don't want to elect Republicans. But I think I have good reasons for not doing so.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
wow, this is getting scary. I am agreeing w/ you.

murder is murder

don't want to have a baby? don't ... uh... get "exposed"

raped? give the child up to a loving couple who can't have kids.. no need to murder an innocent human being (not that there ever is...)



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I think we agree on some things and not on others. We agree on this much.

Adoption is an option for families that do stupid things before marriage to. That's a mistake to get in that spot, but its still an option.



didn't Rand go loopy on us over immigration or some such thing? I have this vague memory... hmmmm... (no spring chicken, ya know...)



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I don't know what you mean. I actually thought Rand's immigration stance was reasonable as far as it goes. Deporting millions of people isn't going to work, not to mention that its not really moral, since preventing people from crossing the border isn't moral anyway.

Now, I'm all for not giving immigrants welfare benefits, but that's very different than preventing them from coming and working for a willing employer. I thought the GOP was supposed to be the free market party? Why not when it comes to the labor of immigrants?



a true R does not, if the system is corrupt. I think of Ted Cruz and a few others who fight the behemoth system... sometimes to no avail but he keeps at it... may be 1 of the few in Congress who still has a conscience...


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Ted Cruz is a bit better than most but he certainly still supports the system. The only one who came anywhere close to "not supporting the system" was Ron Paul.

See this page: http://kevincraig.us/anarchism.htm

(Note that in posting this I am not saying I agree with Craig on absolutely every point, but he gets at the basic point regarding what "opposing the system" means.)

There are two reasons I wouldn't vote for Cruz right now.

1. When Obama decided to leave Colorado and Washington alone when they decided to legalize pot, Ted Cruz accused Obama of "ignoring the law." Even though the law was unconstitutional, Cruz took Obama's "violation of the law" as something to be criticized despite the fact that what Obama did was both constitutional and pro-liberty. Now, in saying this I am in no way defending Obama. He's terrible. But a stopped clock is right twice a day. Cruz is a legal positivist who values the written, tyrannical laws over freedom.

2. Foreign Policy: Ted Cruz is way too married to the State of Israel and foreign policy intervention in the Middle East. These actions lead to the deaths of innocents.

I'm not going to try to convince you not to vote for Cruz. He's better than most. But to me, its still a lesser of two evils, and I can't do that.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
the government has an interest in preserving peace and general well being, should be given enforcement rights vis a vis HUMAN Life, namely its protection.

If a state said abortion is OK, the Federal gov should say NO b/c it goes against the Constitution ("Life, liberty...")

the problem is that a bunch of loony tunes are always in power..



almost always... whatever

Hmm... I don't disagre on principle, but I don't think the constitution actually prohibits a state from "allowing" abortion.

I'd support a constitutional amendment that forces any state that wants to legalize abortion to secede from the union. If they were to legalize it without seceding they would be expelled.

That would take an amendment though.
 

republicanchick

New member
I
I think your issue with me is not so much my views as that I don't want to elect Republicans. But I think I have good reasons for not doing so.

I don't agree w/ you on several issues. I do NOT wwant harmful, addictive drugs legalized. I have said for some time now that cigarettes should be banned. They are addictive and clearly cause early death. They are as addictive as heroin. I have mixed feelings on legalizing marijuana. I don't believe someone caught with an oz of the stuff should get 5 yrs or whatever in jail... stupid.

Also, I am not going to throw away my vote. The Republicans (real ones like Cruz, Perry, etc) believe closest to the way I believe on just abt everything. I am not aware of Romney wanting to increase gov...but I voted for him b/c I didn't want Pres O. I was VERY leery of him being MOrmon. The Mormons tend to be clannish and take care of their own, while not giving too much of a (whatever) about others... just MY experiences telling me this, for whatever that is worth

evil?

well, frankly, I think all Mormons are evil once thye know the falsehoods inherent in Mormonism, yet they stay for all the bennies...



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Christian Liberty

Well-known member


I don't agree w/ you on several issues. I do NOT wwant harmful, addictive drugs legalized. I have said for some time now that cigarettes should be banned. They are addictive and clearly cause early death. They are as addictive as heroin. I have mixed feelings on legalizing marijuana. I don't believe someone caught with an oz of the stuff should get 5 yrs or whatever in jail... stupid.

Also, I am not going to throw away my vote. The Republicans (real ones like Cruz, Perry, etc) believe closest to the way I believe on just abt everything. I am not aware of Romney wanting to increase gov...but I voted for him b/c I didn't want Pres O. I was VERY leery of him being MOrmon. The Mormons tend to be clannish and take care of their own, while not giving too much of a (whatever) about others... just MY experiences telling me this, for whatever that is worth

evil?

well, frankly, I think all Mormons are evil once thye know the falsehoods inherent in Mormonism, yet they stay for all the bennies...



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The whole concept of drug prohibition is inconsistent with the supposed Republican support for small government. Prohibition does not work.
 

republicanchick

New member
The whole concept of drug prohibition is inconsistent with the supposed Republican support for small government. Prohibition does not work.

I don't want children influenced to believe that drugs are not such a bad thing, just another option in a world of options.

frankly, I do not have a big problem (yet) with legalizing marijuana but I say t his with the caveat that I don't know much about the stuff... I do know it messes w/ your chromosomes so maybe that should be End of Story? I am not saying it should or should not be legalized... I have not made up my mind yet.. But it seems to be safer to drive DUI weed than DUI alcohol...

cigarettes should be banned... Sorry, that's my opinion and I am sticking to it... Sure, maybe it infringes on people's freedom but addiction takes your freedom away also...

I refer to Filetered cigs, not the filter-less ones which are far less dangerous



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Caledvwlch

New member
I don't want children influenced to believe that drugs are not such a bad thing, just another option in a world of options.

frankly, I do not have a big problem (yet) with legalizing marijuana but I say t his with the caveat that I don't know much about the stuff... I do know it messes w/ your chromosomes

Oh do you now? I'd be interested to see some kind of link or news story on this claim.

so maybe that should be End of Story? I am not saying it should or should not be legalized... I have not made up my mind yet.. But it seems to be safer to drive DUI weed than DUI alcohol...

This is really murky territory. There is very little material available on how dangerous "smoking and driving" is.

cigarettes should be banned... Sorry, that's my opinion and I am sticking to it... Sure, maybe it infringes on people's freedom but addiction takes your freedom away also...

I refer to Filetered cigs, not the filter-less ones which are far less dangerous

Why are filter-less cigarette's less dangerous than filtered? You realize that it's the inhalation of tobacco smoke and all of the nasty chemical byproducts of burning the leaf are what hurts people right? Passing it through a fiberglass filter makes it precisely no more or less safe.

But either way, it doesn't sound very Republican of you to suggest flat-out destroying an entire industry, along with all of the jobs that industry operates.
 

republicanchick

New member
.



Why are filter-less cigarette's less dangerous than filtered? You realize that it's the inhalation of tobacco smoke and all of the nasty chemical byproducts of burning the leaf are what hurts people right? Passing it through a fiberglass filter makes it precisely no more or less safe.

But either way, it doesn't sound very Republican of you to suggest flat-out destroying an entire industry, along with all of the jobs that industry operates.

I happen to know something about cigs

it is the filter that has 140 different harmful chemicals in it

and I put my Faith in Christ above political party
 

shagster01

New member
I vote republican because of abortion
but
at the same time
I am voting against
unions
same sex marriage
big government
excessive taxation
obamacare

I get them all in one package

Telling people who they can marry, Patriot act, war on drugs...

Sounds like big government to me.
 

Caledvwlch

New member
I happen to know something about cigs

it is the filter that has 140 different harmful chemicals in it

You have been misled. It's burning tobacco that has the rotten chemicals in it. Unless you're actually smoking the filter. People who smoke filter-less get sick at exactly the same rates as those who smoke filtered.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
I don't want children influenced to believe that drugs are not such a bad thing, just another option in a world of options.

Then support and promote the creation of private schools that teach children that drugs are bad. Preach in church pulpits that drugs are bad. Teach your own children that drugs are bad. Teach family members that drugs are bad. Start rehab clinics.

No, I'm not suggesting that you are able to do all those things by yourself, but my point is that there are other options beyond "use government force to stamp out drugs" and "teach children that drugs are just fine."


cigarettes should be banned... Sorry, that's my opinion and I am sticking to it... Sure, maybe it infringes on people's freedom but addiction takes your freedom away also...

I refer to Filetered cigs, not the filter-less ones which are far less dangerous



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If you take cigarettes and you get addicted, that's your choice. If you ban cigarettes, you are telling the government to destroy the lives of those who use them.


I happen to know something about cigs

it is the filter that has 140 different harmful chemicals in it

and I put my Faith in Christ above political party

Your faith in Christ does not tell you to destroy people's lives for using a substance you don't like. Caled is right. He's telling you how inconsistent the Republican ideology of small government alongside prohibition is. This is a big part of his point.
Telling people who they can marry, Patriot act, war on drugs...

Sounds like big government to me.

Exactly. The GOP is a completely hypocritical and useless party, a few random people aside.
 
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