Limited atonement !

beloved57

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Is there a contradiction here ? Jesus said He gave himself a ransom for many Mark 10:45

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

And His faithful apostle wrote that Jesus gave His life a ransom for all 1 Tim 2:6

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Now here is a writing that I believe reconciles what appears to be a contradiction, and will go on to confirm limited atonement: Craig A. Thurman

For Whom Did Christ Give His Life a Ransom? 1 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Mt 20:28 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1Ti 2:6 There is here an apparent contradiction. On one hand Jesus said that He gave His life a ransom for many and, on the other Paul said that Christ gave his life a ransom for all. Anyone with reverence for the Word of God knows that these statements cannot be contradictory. Both of these statements are correct and therefore they must be harmonious. So, how can this apparent contradiction be resolved? First, in Mt.20.28 many is an indeterminate portion of a larger number. Many distinguishes some from all. So, many of a larger, all-comprehensive number are ransomed. This all-comprehensive number can be called all without exception. Second, in 1Ti.2.6, all takes into account only those that are ransomed. This entire group is without distinction, because they are all equally ransomed. So, all in this instance can be called all without distinction. The word all is often defined incorrectly. For this reason, the statements in which this word is used are also misunderstood. For example, all is almost always used with reference to some things or some people in particular. In Mt.3.5, 6 it is written, Mt 3:5,6 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. Here the word all does not mean that Judaea and Jordan became vacated to the extent that no one was left in those places. Here, all is understood in a limited sense and refers to a particular people. To whom does all refer? It only refers to all that desired to receive John’s baptism? All of these were from these places. So, when we fail to correctly define just this one little word the truth becomes distorted in some measure. In 1Ti.2.6 all means all without distinction. In other words all refers to all kinds of people, not every person without exception; people without distinction (without regard to their being rich or poor, healthy or sick, master or servant, and color). The topic of 1Ti.2.1-8 demands that all be defined in this way. Paul encouraged Timothy to make prayers and supplications for all men. (v.1) These men are described as kings and all that are in authority. (v.2) Verses 4 and 5 continue to state that Christ would have all men to be saved because he is a mediator between God and men. It is for all of these that He gave Himself a ransom. Therefore, all can only be interpreted to mean all without distinction, or all kinds of men. As it is not the will of God for us to entertain prayer for all men without exception, it was not the will of God for Christ to ransom every man without exception. The Word of God says no such things. However, the Word of God states in clearest terms that Christ gave His life a ransom for every man without distinction. For Whom Did Christ Give His Life a Ransom? 2 Re 5:9, 10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. He did not ransom every man when He died. How do we know that? Some men die in their sins. Clearly a ransom price had not been paid for these which perished. Conversely, how can any man perish whose ransom price was paid for by Jesus Christ? Mt.18.11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. So, there is not a contradiction in Mt.20.28 and 1Ti.2.6 at all. When the Word of God is rightly divided these two verses state one, harmonious message: Christ ransomed many from all without exception, and the many ransomed are all without distinction. This doctrine is called particular redemption. http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/hi-8171711208-1.PDF
 

marke

Well-known member
Is there a contradiction here ? Jesus said He gave himself a ransom for many Mark 10:45

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

And His faithful apostle wrote that Jesus gave His life a ransom for all 1 Tim 2:6

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Now here is a writing that I believe reconciles what appears to be a contradiction, and will go on to confirm limited atonement: Craig A. Thurman
Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all but only those who believe and receive the Gospel, and there are many, will experience the blessed fulfillment of the benefits of the ransom for many.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all but only those who believe and receive the Gospel, and there are many, will experience the blessed fulfillment of the benefits of the ransom for many.
In fact, Jesus' sacrifice will be applied to everyone in one sense--that all will rise from the dead. Some will rise to life (those that believe and receive the gospel), and some will rise to judgment). If the penalty for sin is death, then raising everybody who sinned from the dead means that Jesus has overcome that penalty.

[Mar 10:45 KJV] For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
In context, Jesus was talking to His disciples about how they were to lead in the kingdom--as a servant or minister. And Jesus explains that He didn't just come to ransom them (the disciples at the time), but for "many". The "many" is in contrast to the "few" (just the disciples, who were looking to benefit from their position with Him).

[1Ti 2:6 KJV] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
In context, Paul is telling Timothy that there is only one mediator between God and man (vs 5), so ALL men can claim Jesus' ransom for them--no other option is available to them. And we know that it applies to all men, in complete contrast to @beloved57's citation, because of vs 4, not to mention vs 2, which "all" is prefaced by vs 1, which all use "all" to indicate "all".

[1Ti 2:1 KJV] I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; --this can't mean just some men, because prayers of intercession are needed of those that aren't saved (see vs 5)
[1Ti 2:2 KJV] For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. --this can't mean just some kings and authorities, because then only some believers would be able to lead quiet and peaceful lives in godliness and honesty
[1Ti 2:4 KJV] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. --this can't mean just some men, because then Paul, as well as God, would be wanting some men to not be saved, WHICH IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE MEANING OF THE VERSE. Leave it to Calvinists to so construe the words of God that they interpret it exactly opposite of what it says.

I apologize for just replying to you, but B57 has me on ignore, because he can't handle differing opinions to his.
 

JudgeRightly

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You're too totally depraved and not ready to know who.

Don't be a troll. Just answer the question. Or don't respond at all to it.

Who or what made David commit sin with Bathsheba?

Was it:
A) God
B) David
C) Other: ______________
D) I don't know
 
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Derf

Well-known member
The unables won't get helpful answers.
They have no clue what to ask.
And the ables have no clue what to tell them? That’s certainly not scriptural.
1 Peter 3:15 (KJV)
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
 

JudgeRightly

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Not a valid choice.

Try again:

Don't be a troll. Just answer the question. This is a theology forum, where we present ideas for criticism and discussion. If you aren't willing to discuss your beliefs, that's fine, but don't be a troll.

If you wish to participate, then you need to follow the rules. If you continue being a troll, you will be removed from the board as one, and you won't be coming back.

So, if you would, please, answer the question, or don't bother responding to it.

Who or what made David commit sin with Bathsheba?
Was it:
A) God
B) David
C) Other: ______________
D) I don't know
 

JudgeRightly

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Yes a reconciled person is saved from the penalty of their sin. God doesnt charged a reconciled person with sin 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

To be reconciled to God denotes the non imputation of your sins. Now how were they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You literally quoted the verse that says, in not so many words, that reconciled does not inherently mean saved.

"Not imputing/charging trespasses" is NOT the same as "absolving them of their trespasses. And Paul CLEARLY delineates "reconciled by the death of His Son" and "being saved by His life." Being saved is justifying someone through CHRIST's sacrifice, crediting CHRIST's righteousness to their account. Being reconciled is not being saved. Being reconciled means that there's a bridge that has been burnt down by man, and God has restored that bridge, so that man may, if he chooses, walk across it.

So no, a reconciled person is NOT NECESSARILY SAVED.

One is SAVED when he calls upon the name of the Lord, after hearing the gospel preached.
 

Puppet

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Don't be a troll. Just answer the question. Or don't respond at all to it.

Who or what made David commit sin with Bathsheba?

Was it:
A) God
B) David
C) Other: ______________
D) I don't know
Your question isn't related to my first response.
I didn't reply to anything to do with David or Bathsheba.
 

JudgeRightly

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Your question isn't related to my first response.
I didn't reply to anything to do with David or Bathsheba.

Liar. The thread is still there for everyone to read it, Puppet.

Here is the chain of posts related to my (Marke was the one who originally asked it) question.

Who or what made David commit sin with Bathsheba?

You're too totally depraved and not ready to know who.

Don't be a troll. Just answer the question. Or don't respond at all to it.

Who or what made David commit sin with Bathsheba?

Was it:
A) God
B) David
C) Other: ______________
D) I don't know


Not a valid choice.

Try again:

Don't be a troll. Just answer the question. This is a theology forum, where we present ideas for criticism and discussion. If you aren't willing to discuss your beliefs, that's fine, but don't be a troll.

If you wish to participate, then you need to follow the rules. If you continue being a troll, you will be removed from the board as one, and you won't be coming back.

So, if you would, please, answer the question, or don't bother responding to it.

Who or what made David commit sin with Bathsheba?
Was it:
A) God
B) David
C) Other: ______________
D) I don't know

Your question isn't related to my first response.
I didn't reply to anything to do with David or Bathsheba.

So now you're a troll AND a liar. I'm telling you right now. You're on the fast track to being permanently banned from TOL. Shape up.
 

Puppet

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Liar?
Anyway, I was referring to the first post of this topic:
"The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep."

I agree with Beloved57
edit: Marke asked that after my reply to the topic.
edit after researching: I wasn't replying to Marke.
Marke replied to me first" See Pic
 

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JudgeRightly

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That's what you call people who lie.

Anyway, I was referring to the first post of this topic:

Which isn't what I'm referring to. I'm referring to your response to marke's question directed at you, which you have refused to answer so far.

I agree with Beloved57

I'm aware.

edit: Marke asked that after my reply to the topic.

Yes. I know.

edit after researching: I wasn't replying to Marke.
Marke replied to me first" See Pic

The fact of the matter is that you responded to marke's question with the following:

You're too totally depraved and not ready to know who.

And is what Derf and I were challenging you on, and is what you are now lying about.

So again, my and marke's question to you:

Who or what made David commit sin with Bathsheba?
Was it:
A) God
B) David
C) Other: ______________
D) I don't know

Either answer the question, or admit that you can't answer it, or don't answer it.

Spoiler
"The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep."

I addressed this post by Beloved57 previously in this thread. You should read it.
 

Puppet

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I'm not a Hyper Calvinist but I'm more in line with AskmrReligion (what happened to him?). More of a Newer Presbyterian. I like to use the shortest sayings to simulate the spiritual mind. This forum isn't like it used to be. Seem very pushy and I must obey users or I'm banned. Not creative. I guess I'll bow out. It's a little spiritually immature. Calling users liars and troll's is kind of tacky.
Ya'll have a Merry Christmas and a very happy new year. I'll check back in a few years and see they call me liar and a troll in just 5 minutes being on line. Thanks you and have a good day.
 

JudgeRightly

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I'm not a Hyper Calvinist but I'm more in line with AskmrReligion (what happened to him?).

He passed away a while back. http://arizonaobits.tributes.com/obituary/show/Patrick-L.-Reilly-106900466#160698530

I like to use the shortest sayings to simulate the spiritual mind.


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This forum isn't like it used to be. Seem very pushy and I must obey users or I'm banned.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not just a user. And all I'm asking is that you not lie and not be a troll, which you are DEFINITELY doing/being.

Not creative. I guess I'll bow out.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

It's a little spiritually immature.

There is nothing immature, spiritually or otherwise, about calling a lying troll a lying troll.

Calling users liars and troll's is kind of tacky.

You would have hated Jesus. He called people vipers and whited sepulchres and sons of the devil. I'm rather tame, in comparison.

Ya'll have a Merry Christmas and a very happy new year. I'll check back in a few years and see they call me liar and a troll in just 5 minutes being on line. Thanks you and have a good day.

Don't bother. Merry Christmas.
 

beloved57

Well-known member

Is Universal Atonement True? (1)​

A number of readers have asked about the extent or purpose of the atonement, that is, For whom did Christ die? This question is especially important because many evangelicals today believe that Jesus shed His blood for everyone head for head excluding no one. This view is preached in many pulpits and widely promoted in books and pamphlets. But this position must be analysed very carefully. Is it really true that Jesus gave His life to save absolutely everybody without exception? Let us ask some questions of this view.

(1) How could the Triune God, who is possessed of infinite wisdom and understanding, send His dearly beloved Son to ransom from sin and Hell those who were already in Hell, a place from which the damned have no way out (cf. Luke 16:26)?

(2) God sent His Word to only one nation, the Israelites, during the Old Testament age, and “He hath not dealt so with any [other] nation” (Ps. 147:19-20; Acts 14:16). Moreover, Jehovah does not send the gospel in the New Testament age to everybody either (cf. Acts 16:6-8; Matt. 24:14). Why then would God send Christ to die for those who never hear the gospel and hence could never be saved (Rom. 10:14, 17)?

(3) The Bible teaches that Judas was “the son of perdition” (John 17:12), that is, a man wholly characterized by perdition, ruin and eternal destruction. Did Jesus really die for Judas when He knew that the Old Testament had already prophesied that Judas would betray Him (Ps. 41:9) and “go to his own place,” namely Hell (Acts 1:25; Ps. 109; John 17:12)?

(4) Scripture states that God hated Esau (Rom. 9:13) but everywhere Christ’s atonement is spoken of as the fruit of God’s love (e.g., John 3:16; 15:13; Rom. 5:8; I John 4:10). How then could God send Christ in His infinite, eternal and boundless love (Eph. 3:18-19) to die for Esau whom He hated? Rev. Stewarthttps://cprc.co.uk/covenant-reformed-news/crnnovember2002/#universal
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The Limited atonement by the blood of Christ is confirmed by scripture because His death and its benefits are according to covenant and for a specific people, Spiritual Israel, Gods elect from amongst the nations. Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Now the many is the house of Israel Heb 8:10-12

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. This verse 12 corresponds with the remission of sins in Matt 26:28 so we know its the same covenent and its benefits.
 

marke

Well-known member
The Limited atonement by the blood of Christ is confirmed by scripture because His death and its benefits are according to covenant and for a specific people, Spiritual Israel, Gods elect from amongst the nations. Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Now the many is the house of Israel Heb 8:10-12

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. This verse 12 corresponds with the remission of sins in Matt 26:28 so we know its the same covenent and its benefits.
God promises to give His Spirit to those who put their trust in Him, and seals His promise with a covenant.
 
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