Lying for God
- Thread starter Jefferson
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Tye Porter
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There is also "Liberal intelligence" and "Homosexual Christian".
Oxy baby, all Oxy and morons.
Oxy baby, all Oxy and morons.
Mateo
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Thus sayeth The Bob, eh? He might want to consult with Paul before engaging in any further presumption.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began;
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began;
Paul wrote in
2nd Thessalonians 2:11 - "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"
Consider also the following:
1.) Did Elisha sin when he lied in 2nd Kings 6:19? No verse in this chapter says he sinned.
2.) Did David's wife sin when she lied in First Samuel 19:13-14 and 19:17? No verse in this chapter says she sinned.
3.) Did Joshua and his army sin when they lied in Joshua 8:15? No verse in this chapter says they sinned.
4.) Did Rahab sin when she lied in Joshua 2:5? No verse in this chapter says she sinned.
5.) Did the Egyptian midwives sin when they lied in Exodus 1:19? No verse in this chapter says they sinned.
Legalists don't know how to deal with Jesus' words in Mark 2:25-27: "And He said to them, Have you never read what David did, when he had need and was hungry, he, and those with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest and ate the showbread, which it is not lawful to eat, except for the priests, and also gave to those with him?"
Did David sin here? Jesus says right here in this verse that the showbread was "not lawful to eat". So that settles it. David sinned, right?
NO! In the very next verse Jesus explains, "The sabbath is made for man, and not man for the sabbath." It was perfectly moral for David to break this law in order to prevent both he and his men from going hungry. David wasn't a legalist. Neither was Jesus. Neither am I.
The law is made for man, and not man for the law. Therefore, if it was perfectly moral for David to break the law because he was hungry, then why is it not moral for us to "lie" in order to save lives, both physical and eternal?
Legalism dilly-dallies with the periphera of life while men live and die in terms of crises. Scratch a legalist, and underneath you will find a sanctimonious ostrich with his head in the sand. Legalism hardens the heart and softens the brain.
Yet even MORE verses supporting lying and deceiving the wicked:
1.) I Kings 22:21-23 - "And there came forth a spirit and stood before the LORD and said, I will deceive him. And he said, I will go forth and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall persuade him and succeed also. Go forth and do so. And now, behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets, and the LORD has spoken evil concerning you."
2.) Genesis 12:11-13 - "And it happened, when he had come near to enter into Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that you are a beautiful woman to look upon. And it will be when the Egyptians see you, they shall say, This is his wife. And they will kill me, but they will save you alive. I pray you, say that you are my sister, so that it may be well with me for your sake. And my soul shall live because of you."
3.) Genesis 26:6,7 - "And Isaac lived in Gerar. And the men of the place asked about his wife. And he said, She is my sister. For he feared to say, My wife; lest the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah, because she was beautiful of form."
4.) Genesis 27:19 - "And Jacob said to his father, I am Esau your first-born."
5.) Judges 1:24-26 - "And the spies saw a man come forth out of the city, and they said to him, Please show us the gate into the city, and we will show you mercy. And when he showed them the gate into the city, they struck the city with the edge of the sword."
This man deceived his nation by pretending to be a patriot when, in reality, he was a traitor. This also brings another aspect into the story of Rahab. She not only lied, she also deceived her nation by pretending to be a patriot when, in reality, she was a traitor.
6.) Judges 3:19,21 - "But he himself turned again from the graven images that were by Gilgal, and said, I have a secret message for you, O, king. And he said, Keep silence. And all that stood by him went out from him. . . . And Ehud put forth his left hand and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly."
7.) Judges 4:18,21 - "And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said to him, Turn in my lord, turn in to me. Do not fear. When he had turned in to her into the tent, she covered him with a rug. . . . Then Jael, Heber's wife, took a peg of the tent and put a hammer in her hand, and went softly to him, and struck the peg into his temples, and beat it into the ground. For he was fast asleep and weary. So he died."
8.) Ezekiel 14:9 - "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."
There it is Mateo. All these verses with opportunities for scripture to point out in just ONE case that these people sinned even though God blessed them. And once again, how many of these lies and/or deceptions does scripture label "sin"?
ZERO!
Coincidence?
Are you suprised? I'm not.
Let the record continue to stand. 100 percent of the time that someone lied or deceived in scripture in order to save the lives of the innocent or the just, that person is never told by scripture that his lie or deception was a sin.
Never. Not once. Zero. Zip. Nada. Doughnut hole.
Learn it. Love it. Live it.
Mateo
New member
Rev 21:Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Seems we're on the horns of a dillemma here. Love the straw man you've crafted for me. The delicious irony is you brand me a legalist while defending your notion from O.T. passages while I, the accused, stand guilty of using only N.T. passages.
:chuckle:
1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Seems we're on the horns of a dillemma here. Love the straw man you've crafted for me. The delicious irony is you brand me a legalist while defending your notion from O.T. passages while I, the accused, stand guilty of using only N.T. passages.
:chuckle:
Mateo
New member
Beloved Clete,
Propriety insists that I provide you with something more than I have to this point by way of an explaination to your question regarding my comment.
You see, in suggesting that any comment that in anyway contradicted what was offered by Jefferson would be in your words, "willfull ignorance" you predict any such answer and the validity thereof; thus assigning to yourself an aspect that some ascribe to God, namely, the ability to see the future which itself implies predestination... hence my remark.
Love,
Mateo
Propriety insists that I provide you with something more than I have to this point by way of an explaination to your question regarding my comment.
You see, in suggesting that any comment that in anyway contradicted what was offered by Jefferson would be in your words, "willfull ignorance" you predict any such answer and the validity thereof; thus assigning to yourself an aspect that some ascribe to God, namely, the ability to see the future which itself implies predestination... hence my remark.
Love,
Mateo
Yes, you may.
May I suggest that since God obviously is not a liar and that it is equally clear that God does deceive His enemies and encourages others to do the same, that the two are not equals.
Murder is a sin and a crime, killing (for just cause) is not.
In the same way...
Lying is a sin, deception (for just cause) is not.
Get it?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Mateo
New member
May I suggest that since God obviously is not a liar and that it is equally clear that God does deceive His enemies and encourages others to do the same, that the two are not equals.
Murder is a sin and a crime, killing (for just cause) is not.
In the same way...
Lying is a sin, deception (for just cause) is not.
Get it?
Yes Sir!
Hence my consternation at the phrase "Lying for God"
Get it?
P.S. Afraid I can't walk with you on that killing business.
Murder is a sin and a crime, killing (for just cause) is not.
In the same way...
Lying is a sin, deception (for just cause) is not.
Get it?
Yes Sir!
Hence my consternation at the phrase "Lying for God"
Get it?
P.S. Afraid I can't walk with you on that killing business.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
So Enyart actually claims that his deity lies? And Jefferson backs it up by claiming that his deity causes humans to believe falsehood? What possible benefit would an omnipotent deity gain through falsehood? The double talk being used to justify the sanctity of communicating falsehood is fascinating here... :chuckle:
Of course, by extension then for those claiming to possess "the mind of Christ", lying is thus an acceptable form of manipulation?
How then are we to trust anything a Christian says? :think:
Just as interesting is the demonstration on this thread, that the allegedly truthful Bible contains two verses that are completely contradictory describing the truthfulness and integrity of the Christian deity. This is one more reason to make me wonder whether what these folks believe is true or could it be merely another deity-induced deception? :think:
Of course, by extension then for those claiming to possess "the mind of Christ", lying is thus an acceptable form of manipulation?
- Is the Christian adulterer is justified in lying to his wife about his extramarital activities? What if she's unsaved?
Is it acceptable for the televangelist to lie to raise money for his cause?
Is it acceptable for the church hierarchy to lie about predatory sexual practices by clergy on church attendees?
How then are we to trust anything a Christian says? :think:
Just as interesting is the demonstration on this thread, that the allegedly truthful Bible contains two verses that are completely contradictory describing the truthfulness and integrity of the Christian deity. This is one more reason to make me wonder whether what these folks believe is true or could it be merely another deity-induced deception? :think:
Okay so you want to pick nits about the definition of the word "lie". That’s fine. But whether you call it lying or deceiving the nuts and bolt of it are the same and "Deceiving for God" wouldn't have made for nearly as compelling a title for this thread or Bob's radio show.
And why couldn't you "walk" with me on "that killing business"?
It was God's idea to execute murders and adulterers and the like, not mine!
Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
Apparently, it is God that you can not walk with.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Mateo
New member
Beloved Clete,
In all but two scriptures offered by Jefferson the deception recorded was that of man and not of God. To argue that He sanctions lying or deception because He doesn't render judgement on each and every case of it on the spot is to argue that he sanctioned Ham's indiscretion with his father, Lot's indescretion with his daughters and Peter's denial of Jesus by the same logic.
In addressing the other two scriptures offered by Jefferson one states clearly that those being decieved deceive themselves. As they had no love of the truth God permits them to be decieved. This same deception will be seen for what it is by those who love the truth. The same "deception" serves the dual purpose of identifying who is who and that of justifying God's eventual judgement concerning them both.
And then there was one...
Eze 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.
Context is everything don't you think? Here it may be seen that the same thing that happened here will be the same thing that happens later for the same reasons. No love of the truth. Which leads us to your other question concerning killing.
When God gave the laws concerning killing (accidental or otherwise) He set up very specific parameters within which such a thing was permisible. This is because God and God alone had the requisite wisdom necessary to make such a descision. Once having been given our "liberty" in respect to the law Christ was very careful to also take from us the duty/responsibility of dealing out judgment as well. Although it is a thing promised us when we receive our inheriitance we are not as yet sufficiently endowed with "the mind of Christ" to be able to make such judgments autonimously whether it be killing or "deceiving".
There has been some interesting back and forth on the subject of "the mind of Christ" on the thread below if you are interested.
Yours in Him
Mateo
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12454
Notice how, once again, you've jumped back into O.T. law to bolster you assault against the ideas of "the legalist". Truth is stranger than fiction.
In all but two scriptures offered by Jefferson the deception recorded was that of man and not of God. To argue that He sanctions lying or deception because He doesn't render judgement on each and every case of it on the spot is to argue that he sanctioned Ham's indiscretion with his father, Lot's indescretion with his daughters and Peter's denial of Jesus by the same logic.
In addressing the other two scriptures offered by Jefferson one states clearly that those being decieved deceive themselves. As they had no love of the truth God permits them to be decieved. This same deception will be seen for what it is by those who love the truth. The same "deception" serves the dual purpose of identifying who is who and that of justifying God's eventual judgement concerning them both.
And then there was one...
Eze 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.
Context is everything don't you think? Here it may be seen that the same thing that happened here will be the same thing that happens later for the same reasons. No love of the truth. Which leads us to your other question concerning killing.
When God gave the laws concerning killing (accidental or otherwise) He set up very specific parameters within which such a thing was permisible. This is because God and God alone had the requisite wisdom necessary to make such a descision. Once having been given our "liberty" in respect to the law Christ was very careful to also take from us the duty/responsibility of dealing out judgment as well. Although it is a thing promised us when we receive our inheriitance we are not as yet sufficiently endowed with "the mind of Christ" to be able to make such judgments autonimously whether it be killing or "deceiving".
There has been some interesting back and forth on the subject of "the mind of Christ" on the thread below if you are interested.
Yours in Him
Mateo
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12454
Notice how, once again, you've jumped back into O.T. law to bolster you assault against the ideas of "the legalist". Truth is stranger than fiction.
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