Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

[Ben Masada]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

After I was invited to attend services at a congregation of Messianic-Jews I came about with the following thread which I would like to share here with you:

There is no such a thing as "Messianic-Jews" or "Jews-for-Jesus". The hyphenate Jew does not exist. A Jew is a Jew and a Christian is a Christian. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian.

I am reminded of the time of Elijah and the "Jews-for-Baal." Elijah got 850 of their prophets and charged at them by asking, how long will you straddle the issue between HaShem and Baal? If HaShem is God, follow Him but, if it is Baal, follow him! (I Kings 18:18-21) But no, they wanted to keep their Jewish identity while serving Baal. He invited them down to brook of Kishon and slew them all there.

The same phenomenon is happening today. People want to keep their Jewish identity while living as Christians. Exactly straddling the issue between the gospel of Jesus and that of Paul. Just as Paul used to do, straddling the issue between the Law according to his mind and sin according to his flesh. (Rom. 7:25)

 

[Caino]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

After I was invited to attend services at a congregation of Messianic-Jews I came about with the following thread which I would like to share here with you:

There is no such a thing as "Messianic-Jews" or "Jews-for-Jesus". The hyphenate Jew does not exist. A Jew is a Jew and a Christian is a Christian. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian.

I am reminded of the time of Elijah and the "Jews-for-Baal." Elijah got 850 of their prophets and charged at them by asking, how long will you straddle the issue between HaShem and Baal? If HaShem is God, follow Him but, if it is Baal, follow him! (I Kings 18:18-21) But no, they wanted to keep their Jewish identity while serving Baal. He invited them down to brook of Kishon and slew them all there.

The same phenomenon is happening today. People want to keep their Jewish identity while living as Christians. Exactly straddling the issue between the gospel of Jesus and that of Paul. Just as Paul used to do, straddling the issue between the Law according to his mind and sin according to his flesh. (Rom. 7:25)

If only you could swallow your racial pride and realize that Isaiah envisioned a spiritual kingdom as opposed to material Israel then you could begin to understand the gospel of the Kingdom or at least face the sobering facts.

 

[Ben Masada]

If only you could swallow your racial pride and realize that Isaiah envisioned a spiritual kingdom as opposed to material Israel then you could begin to understand the gospel of the Kingdom or at least face the sobering facts.

What do you mean by sobering facts, the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology? I can't and Jesus would not take the gospel of Paul either. Jesus had much more loyalty to his apostles than to Paul.

 

[Danoh]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

After I was invited to attend services at a congregation of Messianic-Jews I came about with the following thread which I would like to share here with you:

There is no such a thing as "Messianic-Jews" or "Jews-for-Jesus". The hyphenate Jew does not exist. A Jew is a Jew and a Christian is a Christian. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian.

I am reminded of the time of Elijah and the "Jews-for-Baal." Elijah got 850 of their prophets and charged at them by asking, how long will you straddle the issue between HaShem and Baal? If HaShem is God, follow Him but, if it is Baal, follow him! (I Kings 18:18-21) But no, they wanted to keep their Jewish identity while serving Baal. He invited them down to brook of Kishon and slew them all there.

The same phenomenon is happening today. People want to keep their Jewish identity while living as Christians. Exactly straddling the issue between the gospel of Jesus and that of Paul. Just as Paul used to do, straddling the issue between the Law according to his mind and sin according to his flesh. (Rom. 7:25)

Jews for Jesus are simply confused. They are two thousand years too late, and two thousand years too soon.

Here are the Messianic Jews - John 1:

38. Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39. He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
40. One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

45. Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

49. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Note that same exact confession - Matthew 16:

13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This, as Israel at large continued as you do, Ben Masada - as Israel at large continued to reject Him and He had already basically been found by those of Is'rael that Isaiah had prophesied would find Him:

20. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21. From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Isaiah 8:

12. Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13. Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17. And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18. Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

I'll stop here, as "the volume of the Book" just wondrously goes on and on about these things and their due season - suffice it to say that the reality is that the Messianic Jews movement Scripture describes died off - temporarily...

As this - Romans 15:13-21, temporarily replaced this - Romans 15:8-12, per, and until, this - Rom. 11:25-29.

Thus, the Apostle Paul's rejoicing at the end of Romans 11, as to the very concern he is actually addressing in Romans 9 thru 11 - what of God's people whom He did foreknow: His beloved Is'rael.

But what do we Acts 9 Dispensationalists know; we simply follow Paul as he followed Christ as to this issue so close to both their hearts - "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin," Rom. 11:1.

 

[6days]

There is no such a thing as "Messianic-Jews" or "Jews-for-Jesus". The hyphenate Jew does not exist. A Jew is a Jew and a Christian is a Christian. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian.

Ben...Your post is....."No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim" Wiki

Messianic Jews self identify as Jewish, so perhaps start with your definition of 'Jew'...then we can compare to other definitions of the word.

 

[Interplanner]

God's calling Jews meant he called some. Paul showed over and over in rom 9-11 that it only was some all along. It never was all. All Israel will not be all, because how can one future moment's Israel be all Israel who ever lived anywhere? It can't. That's not what it means. It means those by faith.

There is such a thing as Jewish Christian because the Gospel is trans-cultural. There is Celtic Christian, Bermudan Christian, Papauan Christian etc, because the definition of Christian is strong enough not to be detracted or confused by the culture. The definition is that Christ alone is our righteousness.

Danoh is mistaken about his 3 passages from Rom 15 and 11 because his 11 is wrong. His 11 is wrong because it is trying to do 2P2P and there is none. Paul is not asserting one program for Israel and one for the others. he never would have written 11:30 that way.

That's why no passage like Acts 9 can be distinguished out from the rest. What matters is what happened in Christ. But leave to D'ists and they'll tell you that its not Christ-ianity. it is Acts9ianity.

 

[Danoh]

God's calling Jews meant he called some. Paul showed over and over in rom 9-11 that it only was some all along. It never was all. All Israel will not be all, because how can one future moment's Israel be all Israel who ever lived anywhere? It can't. That's not what it means. It means those by faith.

There is such a thing as Jewish Christian because the Gospel is trans-cultural. There is Celtic Christian, Bermudan Christian, Papauan Christian etc, because the definition of Christian is strong enough not to be detracted or confused by the culture. The definition is that Christ alone is our righteousness.

Danoh is mistaken about his 3 passages from Rom 15 and 11 because his 11 is wrong. His 11 is wrong because it is trying to do 2P2P and there is none. Paul is not asserting one program for Israel and one for the others. he never would have written 11:30 that way.

That's why no passage like Acts 9 can be distinguished out from the rest. What matters is what happened in Christ. But leave to D'ists and they'll tell you that its not Christ-ianity. it is Acts9ianity.

No. I am wrong because your forty plus years in your books long ago blinded you from the Scriptures.

You won't even quote them - because you don't know them.

And because you prefer your endless books.

Were we to meet, I would dust you with passage after passage from memory, from time in Scripture.

As has always been the unfortunate case whenever someone who knows the Scripture from time in it, runs into someone with a huge library "about the Bible."

In this, more within the ranks of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, and the Muslims are adept at their book than most - like you - are at our own - the Scripture.

You have no authority - none. But your incompetent say so.

Lay out the passages, for once. Don't hate the Book so much.

 

[Ben Masada]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

Jews for Jesus are simply confused. They are two thousand years too late, and two thousand years too soon.

Here are the Messianic Jews - John 1:

38. Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39. He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
40. One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

45. Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

49. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Note that same exact confession - Matthew 16:

13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This, as Israel at large continued as you do, Ben Masada - as Israel at large continued to reject Him and He had already basically been found by those of Is'rael that Isaiah had prophesied would find Him:

20. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21. From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Isaiah 8:

12. Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13. Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17. And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18. Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

I'll stop here, as "the volume of the Book" just wondrously goes on and on about these things and their due season - suffice it to say that the reality is that the Messianic Jews movement Scripture describes died off - temporarily...

As this - Romans 15:13-21, temporarily replaced this - Romans 15:8-12, per, and until, this - Rom. 11:25-29.

Thus, the Apostle Paul's rejoicing at the end of Romans 11, as to the very concern he is actually addressing in Romans 9 thru 11 - what of God's people whom He did foreknow: His beloved Is'rael.

But what do we Acts 9 Dispensationalists know; we simply follow Paul as he followed Christ as to this issue so close to both their hearts - "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin," Rom. 11:1.

Those you are talking about from John 1 were Christians. The so-called "Messianic-Jews" you refer to of then and of today were not and are not Jewish. They believe that Jesus was Christ which is the most important requirement to be a Christian. There is nothing Jewish about them.

 

[Ben Masada]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

Ben...Your post is....."No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim" Wiki

Messianic Jews self identify as Jewish, so perhaps start with your definition of 'Jew'...then we can compare to other definitions of the word.

Of course! They like to identify themselves as Jews just like Paul would identify himself as serving God's Law in his mind while serving sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Just like the Jews-for-Baal of the time of Elijah who insisted on holding the Jewish identity while offering sacrifices to Baal Molech. (I Kings 18:21) What they all are doing is not only straddling the issue between HaShem and Baal but also vandalizing Judaism with pagan practices.

 

[Caino]

What do you mean by sobering facts, the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology? I can't and Jesus would not take the gospel of Paul either. Jesus had much more loyalty to his apostles than to Paul.

Pauls opinions were his own, he just happened to be the first great charismatic evangelist who took his version of Jesus to the Pagan world, modifying the original gospel in real time for the sake of numbers. Sadly the gospels were written after Paul's preaching influenced the recollection of Jesus.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?...

Catholic's.


DJ

1.0
​

 

[6days]

Of course! They like to identify themselves as Jews just like Paul would identify himself as serving God's Law in his mind while serving sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Just like the Jews-for-Baal of the time of Elijah who insisted on holding the Jewish identity while offering sacrifices to Baal Molech. (I Kings 18:21) What they all are doing is not only straddling the issue between HaShem and Baal but also vandalizing Judaism with pagan practices.

Pity that you were banned... Hope to see you here again soon.
I'm still interested in what your definition of a Jew is.

 

[dialm]

There is neither Greek nor Jew.
The above applies to Christians. So on this I agree with the opening.

Now for Baal worship
Baal worship was a better religion than what Moses came up with.

 

[Danoh]

Pity that you were banned... Hope to see you here again soon.
I'm still interested in what your definition of a Jew is.

Good riddance!

He also pulls that nonsense over on a Messianic forum, to his own, and their endless frustration, because some of them know their Torah far and away better than he can even begin to.

The guy is a real gnat against his own. Reminds me of a certain Texan on TOL.

 

[Ben Masada]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

Pauls opinions were his own, he just happened to be the first great charismatic evangelist who took his version of Jesus to the Pagan world, modifying the original gospel in real time for the sake of numbers. Sadly the gospels were written after Paul's preaching influenced the recollection of Jesus.

Would you please quote to me when Paul decided to go to the pagan world? I am asking because all his life since his first station in Damascus and until his last in Rome, he was to be found in the synagogues of the Jews as if Gentiles gathered in the synagogues of the Jews. (Acts 9:1,2; and 28:17)

 

[Ben Masada]

Catholic's.

DJ

I agree with you. What I don't agree is with hyphenated Jews.

 

[heir]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

After I was invited to attend services at a congregation of Messianic-Jews I came about with the following thread which I would like to share here with you:

There is no such a thing as "Messianic-Jews" or "Jews-for-Jesus". The hyphenate Jew does not exist. A Jew is a Jew and a Christian is a Christian. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian.

I am reminded of the time of Elijah and the "Jews-for-Baal." Elijah got 850 of their prophets and charged at them by asking, how long will you straddle the issue between HaShem and Baal? If HaShem is God, follow Him but, if it is Baal, follow him! (I Kings 18:18-21) But no, they wanted to keep their Jewish identity while serving Baal. He invited them down to brook of Kishon and slew them all there.

The same phenomenon is happening today. People want to keep their Jewish identity while living as Christians. Exactly straddling the issue between the gospel of Jesus and that of Paul. Just as Paul used to do, straddling the issue between the Law according to his mind and sin according to his flesh. (Rom. 7:25)

There are no Jews today (Hosea 1:9 KJV), only wannabes.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[Ben Masada]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

Pity that you were banned... Hope to see you here again soon.
I'm still interested in what your definition of a Jew is.

Pity indeed! I thought that to ban a poster was a private matter between the Moderator and the poster. It seems to me you knew even before I did. That's a pity!

 

[Ben Masada]

Messianic-Jews or Jews-for-Jesus?

There are no Jews today (Hosea 1:9 KJV), only wannabes.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Are you probably implying that the Jews ought to be sacrificed so that Christians could live? That's what Rom. 11:32 seems to be conveying.

 

[genuineoriginal]

There is no such a thing as "Messianic-Jews"

Yes, the "Messianic-Jews" are the ones like this:

Acts 21:20 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:​

Many of the ones you claim are Jews are like this:

Acts 17:5 5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.​