ECT No 7 year trib.

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?



Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Same time frame, last kingdom, the little horn, the prince of the covenant, the vile person...he finishes the transgression.

You have to have an agenda and REALLY want to mess this up to not get it.
 

tetelestai

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How are the two passages I quoted NOT about the same time?

They aren't.

If they are, why would God say the following to Daniel after what Daniel wrote in chp 8:

(Dan 9:24) “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

You want us to believe that God gave information about what was to take place during the 70 weeks BEFORE God said "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people"

That makes no sense, and we know from the First and Second Books of Maccabees that what is described in Daniel 8 took place about 150 years before Christ was born.

Go to any Jewish website and see for yourself.

The following is from TheRabbinicalAssembly. com:

"The historical narrative that forms the background for Hanukkah is found in the First and Second Books of Maccabees, works preserved as part of the extra-canonical library known as the Apocrypha, as well as in some other ancient works, including the final sections of the Book of Daniel."
 

tetelestai

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From Bethadonai.com (Jewish website)

"The events at Hanukkah were prophesied centuries before by Daniel:"

"On the 25th of the Hebrew month of Kislev, the date we celebrate Hanukkah, the Maccabees won back Jerusalem and the Temple that had been desecrated by Antiochus. This date was also prophesied by Daniel 8:13-14 “How long will it be until the daily sacrifice is restored again? How long until the desecration of the Temple is avenged and God’s people triumph?’ He replied: “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the Holy Place will be properly restored.” This is a great confirmation that God’s word is true: Historically accurate from the start of Antiochus’ persecution of the Jews in 171 BCE until the restoration of the Temple in 165 BCE……"
 

tetelestai

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From kehilatsarshalom.net (Jewish website)


"We read in the book of Maccabees that the wicked King Antiochus set out to profane the Temple of God. He set up an idol, an idol of a pagan god in the Temple of the LORD. He sacrificed swine to Zeus on the altar of the LORD. The writer of Maccabees called this idol "the abomination of desolation." Those very events were specifically prophesied in the book of Daniel"
 

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Daniel 8 shows that this vile person is from the last kingdom.

No it doesn't

(Dan 8:22) The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

When Alexander the Great died, his kingdom (Greece) was divided into four kingdoms.

You're confusing the four kingdoms that Greece divided into, with the four kingdoms in Daniel's other prophecies (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome)
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Why not address the passages?

The prince of the covenant, the vile person, the little horn, is from the final kingdom and he causes the sacrifice to cease, sets up an abomination, and finishes the transgression.

Same "he" as the one in Daniel 9's middle of the 70th week.
 

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Why not address the passages?

I am.

Daniel 8 happened circa 175BC

Daniel 9 happened 66AD - 70AD

The prince of the covenant, the vile person, the little horn, is from the final kingdom and he causes the sacrifice to cease, sets up an abomination, and finishes the transgression.

When Greece divided into four kingdoms, the two that Daniel prophesied about were Seleucus in Asia, and Ptolemy in Africa.

Your confusing the Selucid Empire (the 4th kingdom from within Greece) with Rome (the 4th kingdom) that followed Greece.

Same "he" as the one in Daniel 9's middle of the 70th week.

No it's not.
 

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
From JewishHistory.com:

"The Book of Daniel (Daniel 7:3-7) begins with a frightening vision: four beasts, one more frightening than the other, emerge from the sea. According to Jewish tradition (Midrash, Leviticus Rabbah 13:5), each beast represents one of the four major empires that would exile the Jews: Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome."

For Dispensationalism/Futurism to be true, the fourth beast has to be a future nation.
 

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Even the Messianic Jews understand the Book of Daniel

From beithalleltucson.org/

"Hanukkah is the story of the struggle for freedom that a faithful remnant in Israel fought for against the oppressive hand of the Syrians. A couple of hundred years before Messiah was born, there was a king of Syria named Antiochus Epiphanes (he’s spoken about in the book of Daniel as a little horn with great boastings–Daniel 8:9-12). "
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Daniel 8 happened circa 175BC

There is no way you can read chapter 8 and chapter 11 and conclude that this is the LORD:


Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Impossible. It's painfully obvious it is all about the same person.
 

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
There is no way you can read chapter 8 and chapter 11 and conclude that this is the LORD:

I never said it was the Lord.

And, I never said anything about chp 11

You claimed the "he" in chp 8 and chp 9 were the same person.

I said they were not.

If you want to discuss chp 11, I'm happy to discuss chp 11.

However, unless you come to the understanding that chp 8 and chp 9 are about two different events, you're aren't going to understand chp 11.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Daniel 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

Daniel 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

Daniel 11:18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him.

Daniel 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.

Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

Daniel 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Daniel 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

Daniel 11:26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

Daniel 11:27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Daniel 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

Daniel 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Daniel 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Daniel 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Daniel 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Daniel 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

Daniel 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

Daniel 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.




Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.



2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
A saved individual, who is sane, with no axe to grind, can see that all of these are about the same person, same period of time, and same events.
 

tetelestai

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A saved individual, who is sane, with no axe to grind,

That eliminates you.

You have to make Daniel 8,9,10, & 11 fit your Dispensational eschatology.

It is so obvious that Daniel 8:8, and Daniel 8:22 refers to Greece and Alexander the Great.

(Dan 8:8) The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

(Dan 8:22) The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

When Alexander the Great died, Greece was divided into four kingdoms, and each of Alexander's four generals were given the four kingdoms.

Ptolemy was given Egypt, Seleucas was given Syria, Lysimachus was given Thrace and adjoining territories, and Cassander was given Macedonia and Greece itself.

Of the four generals, and four kingdoms, Daniel's prophecy focuses mostly on Antiochus Epiphanes in Persia.

It was Antiochus that persecuted the Jews, which led to the Maccabean revolt.

Like I said, until you understand Daniel 8, you aren't ready to move on to Daniel 9 and/or Daniel 11.

However, knowing how much you have to protect your Dispensationalism, you will fight actual history.
 

Lazy afternoon

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There is no way you can read chapter 8 and chapter 11 and conclude that this is the LORD:


Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Impossible. It's painfully obvious it is all about the same person.


Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Christ confirmed the covenant of Abraham and then ended the sacrifices and oblations of the old covenant by His death.


and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


That began in 70 AD and remains so until the desolater is destroyed.(whether it speaks of Babylon or the Harlot or both.)

The complete fulfillment of Dan 9:24 will not be until Christ returns.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
That eliminates you.

You have to make Daniel 8,9,10, & 11 fit your Dispensational eschatology.

It is so obvious that Daniel 8:8, and Daniel 8:22 refers to Greece and Alexander the Great.

(Dan 8:8) The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

(Dan 8:22) The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

When Alexander the Great died, Greece was divided into four kingdoms, and each of Alexander's four generals were given the four kingdoms.

Ptolemy was given Egypt, Seleucas was given Syria, Lysimachus was given Thrace and adjoining territories, and Cassander was given Macedonia and Greece itself.

Of the four generals, and four kingdoms, Daniel's prophecy focuses mostly on Antiochus Epiphanes in Persia.

It was Antiochus that persecuted the Jews, which led to the Maccabean revolt.

Like I said, until you understand Daniel 8, you aren't ready to move on to Daniel 9 and/or Daniel 11.

However, knowing how much you have to protect your Dispensationalism, you will fight actual history.

Who causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease (daniel 9), according to you?
 
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