On the omniscience of God

[marke]

What are you talking about?

Jesus was not the Father, He was sent by the Father!

John 3:13; 3:17; 7:3, Galatians 4:4, I Corinthians 8:6; 11:3, I John 4:9, Revelation 3:14

John 16: 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”
29 His disciples said to Him, “See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! 30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God.”

While it is true that Jesus is a man it is also true that Jesus is God. While it is true that God is not a man, it is true that God has also taken upon Himself the form of a man. It is also true that God appeared in human form to men at specific instances in the OT. When Moses sang that the Lord is a man of war he was talking about God and in the present.


Exodus 15:3
The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

 

[Right Divider]

While it is true that Jesus is a man it is also true that Jesus is God. While it is true that God is not a man, it is true that God has also taken upon Himself the form of a man. It is also true that God appeared in human form to men at specific instances in the OT. When Moses sang that the Lord is a man of war he was talking about God and in the present.


Exodus 15:3
The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

If you cannot understand FIGURES OF SPEECH... then you cannot really understand the Bible.

 

[Clete]

While it is true that Jesus is a man it is also true that Jesus is God. While it is true that God is not a man, it is true that God has also taken upon Himself the form of a man.

The person of the Trinity whom we refer to as God the Son has always existed along with the Father and Holy Spirit but He was not ever a man (human) before the incarnation in Mary's womb. From that point on, He has been and He will forever be a man with a human body complete with the scared acquired at Calvary.

Those last two things, the human body and the scares from Calvary, not to mention His death and resurection are all undeniable and dramatic changes that occured in God that none of this nonsense about God always being a man helps you get around in any way whatsoever. In other words, there isn't any reason to believe this nonsense, Marke! Why even entertain such an obviously unorthodox belief?

It is also true that God appeared in human form to men at specific instances in the OT. When Moses sang that the Lord is a man of war he was talking about God and in the present.


Exodus 15:3
The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

I've already responded to this point before.

Moses WAS NOT saying that God is a human being of war. It's a very simple to understand figure of speech. The word "man" can be, and often is used as a synonym for "person".

Clete

 

[marke]

The person of the Trinity whom we refer to as God the Son has always existed along with the Father and Holy Spirit but He was not ever a man (human) before the incarnation in Mary's womb. From that point on, He has been and He will forever be a man with a human body complete with the scared acquired at Calvary.

Those last two things, the human body and the scares from Calvary, not to mention His death and resurection are all undeniable and dramatic changes that occured in God that none of this nonsense about God always being a man helps you get around in any way whatsoever. In other words, there isn't any reason to believe this nonsense, Marke! Why even entertain such an obviously unorthodox belief?


I've already responded to this point before.

Moses WAS NOT saying that God is a human being of war. It's a very simple to understand figure of speech. The word "man" can be, and often is used as a synonym for "person".

Clete

Jesus never came to earth as a baby until Mary gave birth to Him. Nevertheless, God walked among men and talked with men and Jesus was God then as He is now. How did God walk among men, as bodiless Spirit? Can we describe this form adequately?

Genesis 12:7
And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Clete]

Jesus never came to earth as a baby until mary gave birth to Him. Nevertheless, God walked among men and talked with men and Jesus was God then as He is now. How did God walk among men, as bodiless Spirit? Can we describe this form adequately?

Genesis 12:7
And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The form He took is NOT relevant to the point. I thought I had made it clear. Let me repeat...
Appearing in the form of a man doesn't make you a human man.

GOD WAS NEVER EVER A HUMAN BEFORE THE INCARNATION!!!!!

That single point along is sufficient to explode the doctrine of immutability into dust! It cannot possibly be true!

A short list of things an immutable God cannot do...

Think
Speak
Create
Be pleased
Love
Grieve
Hate
Get angry
Warn
Punish
Destroy
Appear to man
Appear as a man
Become a human being
Learn
Obey
Submit
Serve
Humble Himself
Die
Rise from the dead.
Ascend into heaven
Sit
Stand
give revelation
Return
Rein over the Earth
Destroy both Heaven and Earth
Create a new Heaven and New Earth
Etc...

 

[marke]

The form He took is NOT relevant to the point. I thought I had made it clear. Let me repeat...
Appearing in the form of a man doesn't make you a human man.

GOD WAS NEVER EVER A HUMAN BEFORE THE INCARNATION!!!!!

That single point along is sufficient to explode the doctrine of immutability into dust! It cannot possibly be true!

A short list of things an immutable God cannot do...

Think
Speak
Create
Be pleased
Love
Grieve
Hate
Get angry
Warn
Punish
Destroy
Appear to man
Appear as a man
Become a human being
Learn
Obey
Submit
Serve
Humble Himself
Die
Rise from the dead.
Ascend into heaven
Sit
Stand
give revelation
Return
Rein over the Earth
Destroy both Heaven and Earth
Create a new Heaven and New Earth
Etc...

Just because the Bible refers to God as a man is not to be misinterpreted to mean that God is like any other man without regard to His deity.

 

[Clete]

Just because the Bible refers to God as a man is not to be misinterpreted to mean that God is like any other man without regard to His deity.

How is that in any way responsive to what was said to you?

What does that have to do with the fact the BECOMING a man (or anything else for that matter) is antithetical to the notion that God is immutable?

 

[marke]

How is that in any way responsive to what was said to you?

What does that have to do with the fact the BECOMING a man (or anything else for that matter) is antithetical to the notion that God is immutable?

The Bible does not say God is immutable. It says God changes not.

 

[Right Divider]

The Bible does not say God is immutable. It says God changes not.

In what CONTEXT does it say that "God changes not"?

 

[marke]

In what CONTEXT does it say that "God changes not"?

Good question. I suspect that some may be thinking that because God responds to one set of circumstances differently than He does to different circumstances that means the Bible contradicts itself by declaring that God changes not. I see no contradiction myself.

 

[Right Divider]

Good question.

Simple question.

I suspect that some may be thinking that because God responds to one set of circumstances differently than He does to different circumstances that means the Bible contradicts itself by declaring that God changes not. I see no contradiction myself.

Many take only part of the statement and try to make it the whole (i.e., out of its context). Like they do with Malachi 3:6. Do you understand the context of Malachi 3:6?

 

[marke]

Simple question.

Many take only part of the statement and try to make it the whole (i.e., out of its context). Like they do with Malachi 3:6. Do you understand the context of Malachi 3:6?

God is not like a man. He is not given to change.

Proverbs 24:21
My son, fear thou the Lord and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change

 

[Right Divider]

God is not like a man. He is not given to change.

Proverbs 24:21
My son, fear thou the Lord and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change

That has nothing to do with Malachi 3:6

 

[marke]

That has nothing to do with Malachi 3:6

I fail to see your point.

 

[Right Divider]

I fail to see your point.

I'm not surprised. I've read many of your posts.

 

[JudgeRightly]

God is not like a man.

No, God does not act like a man.

But HE BECAME A MAN, where before he was NOT a man. Can you acknowledge that much, Marke?

He is not given to change.

You're either blatantly ignoring the argument being made, or your just stupid. Neither is good for your mental health.

Proverbs 24:21
My son, fear thou the Lord and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change

Which, clearly, isn't speaking about God, but about men who are indecisive, or are not consistent.

 

[annabenedetti]

Catholic viewpoint here: God is outside of time, and He's omniscient; so He knows what choices you will make, and how He will work in your life according to those choices. It may seem like He changed His mind in answer to your prayers, but it's more that He knew you would ask A or B or C - or choose A or B or C - and He knew outside of time how He would respond to your free will choice.

Having said that, I'm not sure I'm completely on board with it. That's what I'm supposed to believe, but I grapple with the idea of how much our free will is constrained by determinism (not in a Calvinist sense though, in a biological/environmental sense) and also it seems to me that if God is all powerful, that He cannot be limited by His own power, and if God decides to change His mind, He'll change His mind.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Catholic viewpoint here: God is outside of time, and He's omniscient; so He knows what choices you will make, and how He will work in your life according to those choices. It may seem like He changed His mind in answer to your prayers, but it's more that He knew you would ask A or B or C - or choose A or B or C - and He knew outside of time how He would respond to your free will choice.

Having said that, I'm not sure I'm completely on board with it. That's what I'm supposed to believe, but I grapple with the idea of how much our free will is constrained by determinism (not in a Calvinist sense though, in a biological/environmental sense) and also it seems to me that if God is all powerful, that He cannot be limited by His own power, and if God decides to change His mind, He'll change His mind.

Foreknowledge and Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[annabenedetti]

Foreknowledge and Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

JR. I'm not a philosopher nor do I wish to be one.

Which specific part of this interminably dense link would you like to present in reply to my post?

 

[JudgeRightly]

JR. I'm not a philosopher nor do I wish to be one.

You don't have to be to understand the argument.

Which specific part of this interminably dense link would you like to present in reply to my post?

All of it. Hence me sharing the link to the entire article. Try to apply your mind a bit, Anna.