One-on-one: ebenz47037 & inteltheology

[ebenz47037]

This one-on-one is between myself and inteltheology. Basically, I want to discuss wives submitting to their husbands. I pretty much want to find out if our difference in beliefs is as far apart as I think it is and if it is caused by the difference in our ages or something else.

Inteltheology, would you like to begin or should I? If you do, go ahead and tell me exactly what you believe about wives submitting to their husbands.

 

[inteltheology]

Sorry it's taken so long for me to respond - I'm at work right now, and I was busy with a customer. What do I believe on wives submitting to husbands? Where to begin? ..

I believe that submission in marraige should be absolutely equal, and that God's mandates on submission laid out in Ephesians were meant as equalizers for the relationships of husbands and wives in the early church. I also think that the mandates are designed to cater to the emotional make-up of men and women in a way that supports absolute harmony by advocating compromise and respect to each spouse's emotional needs. I don't believe that men and women are, by nature, different psychologically - but I do believe that subjection to cultural gender roles makes us different. I think God was working to restore equality with these verses in ancient culture by changing people's perspectives on the role of husband and wife - instead of 'obedience', a woman's role was to respect her husband, and it was her choice to submit to him; instead of 'lordship', and husband's role was to love and take care of his wife. I think these verses were equalizers for spouses in the early church - of course, they still apply today- although women are not culturally called to obey men and men are not culturally called to lord over and protect women - because gender identity is still highly influenced by ancient standards, and, of course - to be loved and cherished is VERY pleasant, as is to be respected.

I don't believe in ANY sort of heirarchy of man over woman.

 

[ebenz47037]

Okay. So far, I agree with most of what you're saying. Tell me what you think submission in a marriage means, please. Also, tell me if you believe that men and women were created equally. Believe it or not, these two answers will tell me a lot about you and this issue.

When you say you don't believe in any sort of heirarchy of man over woman, you're basically talking about husband over wife, women not being allowed to vote, sons more valuable than daughters, etc. Right?

 

[inteltheology]

Here's a website that describes the views of a few Egalitarian churches.

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/challenge.shtml


I particularly like this Challenge article. It's great. The people who run this website have views very similar to my own.

 

[ebenz47037]

Okay. Now, I will tell you what I believe. We're not really all that different. I think it's the way we state our ideas that caused my misunderstanding (and maybe some other people's as well).

First off, I don't believe that a wife submitting to her husband means that she is to kowtow to him as a slave to her master. It means that, as the father or future father of her children, she should show him respect. The more respect she shows him, the better off their marriage and their children will be. I will use myself as an example here: My late-husband and I were married when I was 25 and he was 34. He grew up in a household where his mother "wore the pants" and he didn't want a mirror image of his parents' marriage because, although they stayed together, they were not happy at all. I grew up in a single parent family, for the most part. My mother believed, not only, that men and women were equal but that women are better than men. She married twice (one for less than two years and the other for about 8 years) and then lived with a man for almost twenty years. I didn't want my (or my daughter's) life to be like my mom's. So, I prayed about what my marriage was supposed to be like before I married Steve. I felt led to read Proverbs 31:10-31. After reading that, I decided that I was going to do my best to be a virtuous woman, as described there.

Now, I also do not believe that men and women are equal. But, that's not a bad thing. There are things that a man can and/or should do that a woman cannot and/or should not do. And, there are things that a woman can and/or should do that a man cannot and/or should not do. I think that one of the biggest reasons that marriages no longer last years and years is because women have bought the lie that they're equal to men and that they don't need men. Instead of erasing the differences between the two genders, we should be celebrating them. I wouldn't want to be a man. The greatest joy in my life is being able to have children. No man can do that.

When Paul called for women to submit to their husbands because they are the head of the house as Christ is the head of the church, he was telling us to follow the example that the church is supposed to be following. Likewise, he told the husbands to cherish their wives as Christ cherishes the church. That's what it's supposed to be. Not every man, today especially, is a good head of the house because they didn't have a godly man to show them a good example of how to cherish their wives and love their children. And, too many women today didn't have a godly woman to show them how to submit to their husbands and love their children.

I don't believe in 50/50 marriages. I believe that both persons should give 100 percent to the marriage. Can you imagine the love the children would feel if parents did that today?

 

[ebenz47037]

If the weather holds up, I will return later tonight. My daughter wants some online time.

 

[ebenz47037]

Now, another thing I believe about submission to the husband is that it's between the wife and God. The husband shouldn't keep saying to his wife, "I'm the head of the house. You're supposed to submit to me." The wife also shouldn't say to the husband, "You're supposed to cherish me like Christ does the church." That is between the husband and God.

I don't believe in the wife taking charge of the household unless the husband leaves or dies or refuses to do what God has directed him to do. I'm the same way about woman pastors. I don't believe that a woman should be the head pastor of a church unless the men in the church refuse to take up the reins and do what they've been directed to do by God.

A woman glorifies God by being submissive/respectful to her husband. And, a man glorifies God by cherishing his wife. A man of God will rule his home wisely, listening to the cousel of his wife and rearing their children to have a great love for all things in creation. He will take pride in the fact that his children are well behaved and love him and his wife. He will teach his children that there are consequences for the choice to behave badly. And, because of the love that the husband and wife have shown, first, for God; second, for each other; and third, for their family, their family will prosper emotionally. They will never want for love. They will know where they can turn in times of trouble.

Because of women believing the lie that men and women are equal, marriage has become a disposable commodity in today's society. Since there are very few men and women, even my own age, who were raised by godly parents, there are very few godly men and women around to train the next generation. Older women are supposed to teach the younger women how to be a wife and a mother; IOW, they are supposed to teach them to be virtuous women. Older men are supposed to teach the younger men how to be a strong husband and solid provider for their families; IOW, they are supposed to teach them to be godly men.

Our purpose on earth is to glorify God. How can we do that if we refuse to follow the guidelines laid out for us by the many generations of men and women before us in the Bible? How can we teach our own children if we can't even take the first steps in building a godly marriage? We are supposed to praise God in everything we do. How can we praise God when one of the greatest gifts he gave us is so easy to get rid of?

 

[inteltheology]

Okay, I see what you mean. Your views make sense and I respect that you can back them up; however, I couldn't dissagree more with your argument that men and women were meant for different roles in the church and in a family. Of course women and men are different physically, but mentally and emotionally - I think not. Why do I believe this way? Because every woman and every man is different. There is absolutely no way to categorize people into emotional archetypes without going absolutely overboard with generalizations. And to claim that there are certain things that men do that women cannot or should not do - and vica versa- is to place unhealthy restrictions on people's lives. I mean, where do you stop the categorizing ...? Women shouldn't take up lead in a household or church ... what about the boardroom? or the bedroom? Is this to say that women should never take lead over men? If we delve further into gender-role stereotypes, we could say that women should not be scientists or engineers because they lack the mental facilities for logic and agression in the careers ... and men should not be caretakers of children or artists because they are incapable of the patience and compassion for such jobs. When you start categorizing people .... it's hard to know when to stop. And who decides what jobs are for whom? There are no such definite guidelines in the bible ....

When Paul called for women to submit to their husbands because they are the head of the house as Christ is the head of the church, he was telling us to follow the example that the church is supposed to be following. Likewise, he told the husbands to cherish their wives as Christ cherishes the church. That's what it's supposed to be. Not every man, today especially, is a good head of the house because they didn't have a godly man to show them a good example of how to cherish their wives and love their children. And, too many women today didn't have a godly woman to show them how to submit to their husbands and love their children.

Do you also condone slavery? What about Ephesians 6:5 "Slaves, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart as unto Christ." Do you think God gave certain people innate rulership over the lives and bodies of others? Do you think He gave those people the authority to take the others as slaves?

I don't. I think these verses, along with Ephesians 5:22-29 (?), were meant to change early Christian's perspectives on their lives. God didn't call for self righteous mutiny in the early church - He called His followers to mutual servitude and acceptance of their culturally designated life-roles (so that they could attract others to Christ's kingdom. Key word - culturally.) God did not assign any man innate authority over the other. I think that to claim so is short-sighted and vain. God is much smarter than we are, after all, and is above the designation of such spiritually restricting roles. The verses in Ephesians were meant to grant early Christians harmony and peace and to call for an attitude of meekness and kindness. They weren't meant to opress!

 

[inteltheology]

Okay. So far, I agree with most of what you're saying. Tell me what you think submission in a marriage means, please. Also, tell me if you believe that men and women were created equally. Believe it or not, these two answers will tell me a lot about you and this issue.

When you say you don't believe in any sort of heirarchy of man over woman, you're basically talking about husband over wife, women not being allowed to vote, sons more valuable than daughters, etc. Right?

I think submission in marraige SHOULD mean mutual respect and compromise from both spouses. I DO NOT think it means throwing aside your own opinions and being run over. I think it means surrendering your stance for the benifit of your spouse.

Men and women were absolutely created equally. In every way. Yes, physically, too. Women are at a disadvantage strength-wise, but it can be overcome.


I should have said - innate heirarchy. I have no problem with male authority if it is earned.

 

[ebenz47037]

Okay, I see what you mean. Your views make sense and I respect that you can back them up; however, I couldn't dissagree more with your argument that men and women were meant for different roles in the church and in a family. Of course women and men are different physically, but mentally and emotionally - I think not. Why do I believe this way? Because every woman and every man is different. There is absolutely no way to categorize people into emotional archetypes without going absolutely overboard with generalizations. And to claim that there are certain things that men do that women cannot or should not do - and vica versa- is to place unhealthy restrictions on people's lives. I mean, where do you stop the categorizing ...? Women shouldn't take up lead in a household or church ... what about the boardroom? or the bedroom? Is this to say that women should never take lead over men? If we delve further into gender-role stereotypes, we could say that women should not be scientists or engineers because they lack the mental facilities for logic and agression in the careers ... and men should not be caretakers of children or artists because they are incapable of the patience and compassion for such jobs. When you start categorizing people .... it's hard to know when to stop. And who decides what jobs are for whom? There are no such definite guidelines in the bible ....

Personally, I don't think I'm being emotional when I say what I do. Before we got married, Steve and I discussed this. He wanted a 50/50 marriage. I had to tell him that I don't believe in 50/50 marriages. If both spouses don't give one hundred percent of themselves to the marriage and each other, the marriage isn't worth squat. One or the other is always going to think that they're giving more than the other.

There's nothing wrong with stereotyping. Actually, I think women are better at science as a rule (sorry to the male scientists who may read this one day). As far as whether the wife or the husband should stay home with the kids, I think that whomever makes the least money and/or has the worst benefits should stay home for the kids. It is better for the kids if one parent stays home. And, it saves a lot of stress on that parent if they don't have to ask the boss for permission to pick up their sick kid from school.

Do you also condone slavery? What about Ephesians 6:5 "Slaves, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart as unto Christ." Do you think God gave certain people innate rulership over the lives and bodies of others? Do you think He gave those people the authority to take the others as slaves?

That's a ridiculous conclusion to come to from what I said. As far as I know, we don't have slaves in the United States anymore. So, why would you assume that I would condone something that no longer exists? Marriages still exist. We're supposed to give ourselves (whether we're male or female) to each other freely. As far as slavery in the old testament, yes. I think that God gave Israel the authority to take others as slaves. After that, I don't know. I believe in indentured slavery as a form of repayment for theft and/or assault (any but rape). But, I cannot say that slavery as we knew it before the Civil War was biblical.

I don't. I think these verses, along with Ephesians 5:22-29 (?), were meant to change early Christian's perspectives on their lives. God didn't call for self righteous mutiny in the early church - He called His followers to mutual servitude and acceptance of their culturally designated life-roles (so that they could attract others to Christ's kingdom. Key word - culturally.) God did not assign any man innate authority over the other. I think that to claim so is short-sighted and vain. God is much smarter than we are, after all, and is above the designation of such spiritually restricting roles. The verses in Ephesians were meant to grant early Christians harmony and peace and to call for an attitude of meekness and kindness. They weren't meant to opress!

I don't go by just the Bible whith my views on submitting to my husband. I go by examples I saw from my elders whose marriages lasted 20 or more years and by what feels right to myself. Anymore, you see very few marriages last for more than five years. I think that's because everyone thinks that the other spouse should submit to them, and that they should not have to submit to their spouse. IMHO, that's a ridiculous way to carry out a marriage.

 

[ebenz47037]

inteltheology, I've been asked to wrap this topic up. So, since I feel that we aren't done, I'm going to carry it on out on the regular board. We'll just have more than one person on the thread from now on.

Nori