One on One: The God of Allsmiles vs. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

[docrob57]

My young friend Allsmiles has graciously agreed to participate in this one on one, the purpose of which is to explore his concept of god, to the extent that he actually has one. For those unaware of young smiles, he often claims to believe in a god other than that described in the Bible, or any other known religious text. I am sure that he is not alone in this, so I thought it might be interesting to explore such a belief system.

My understanding is that this discussion will be open for one week. I suggest no rules other than that we take turns. I pledge to be respectful to smiles in this discussion, at least I will avoid name calling and expletives, and I trust that Allsmiles will do the same.

As a starting point, I would ask Allsmiles to tell us how he perceives of his god, to the extent that he actually believes in a god, and to evaluate his certainty in that belief.

 

[allsmiles]

As a starting point, I would ask Allsmiles to tell us how he perceives of his god, to the extent that he actually believes in a god, and to evaluate his certainty in that belief.

no expletives? i'm outta here.

but seriously folks...:chuckle:

how i perceive "my" god...

1st) it's not my god, i don't pledge allegiance to it, i don't consistently worship or venerate it... there are some pagan holidays i embrace, the solstice (winter and summer), easter, things like that. as it stands i'm a lousy pagan but that's neither here nor there, i'm kinda lazy by nature... but as for these holidays i don't necessarily worship what i consider to be "god" for lack of a better word.

if you want further clarification on what i do venerate i'll expand, but i don't think it's necessary now.

2nd) "god" is perceptible through it's creation. hug a tree, kiss a lady, hit your thumb with a hammer, smell the roses, taste the strawberry, there's really no getting away from it. i would say god is reality and all power, life, energy and sensations associated with it. god was the force behind katrina and the power behind the heart beats of the 9/11 terrorists, just as god is the sound of a child's laughter, the miracle of birth, the heat of the sun, etc.

the extent to which i actually believe in this "god"...

as much as anyone can believe in anything that cannot be measured or comprehended. i fully accept the possibilities that there is no god, that there is the christian god, that allah is the creator, that krishna was the 8th avatar of vishnu, etc. i believe my description of god is the most logical and realistic, it's not hindered by literary embellishments or the boundaries of human imagination. god as i see it is in everything, is everything and all things are in it's image and it is in the image of all things. it is anonymous, emotionless, impersonal, unmotivated by gain or loss, infinite and immeasurable as a whole, separate individual entity. it is in all and is all.

but i could be wrong, i'm comfortable with that. the literary depiction of god according to the hebrews could be the true god.

my certainty...

as above, i'm only certain in my assertion in that it is the simplest explanation. it requires no struggle between good and evil (humans struggle with this moral cunundrum), it requires no atonement (humans struggle with guilt), it does not attribute finite, human conditions to an infinite, inhuman force, such as jealousy, wrath, fatherhood, etc.

i don't really have any questions for you doc... i'm not entirely sure what to expect from you in return. questions i suppose, but i don't know what biblical case you could make against this.

i'll be here all week folks... :crackup:

 

[docrob57]

So it appears that you would agree with Paul who wrote in Romans 1:

what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead

True? If not, to what extent do you disagree?

A couple of other questions, as we establish our framework here.

Is god conscious?
Is god amoral, or does morality not exist, making the question irrelevant, or is god bimoral, both good and bad?

 

[allsmiles]

So it appears that you would agree with Paul who wrote in Romans 1:

kind of... remember, i never said the bible doesn't contain spiritual truths, just very few literal ones... i don't believe in applying a gender to god, and i don't believe it has any authority in a human sense as paul did.

"god" is visible to an extent through what it has created, how the creation manipulates it, and how we experience the creation, but it does not have authority, just power.

A couple of other questions, as we establish our framework here.

Is god conscious?

as a neutral life force, i would say no... it doesn't feel emotions, but it is emotions, it doesn't think, but it's the power behind our minds. like i said before we manipulate the life force in that it is necessary for the miracle of life, but my father and mother "manipulated" it when they conceived me.

Is god amoral, or does morality not exist, making the question irrelevant, or is god bimoral, both good and bad?

god is not motivated by human standards of good and evil. it powers all things, the compassion of the compassionate and the fury of a madman. rainbows and hurricanes.

 

[docrob57]

Gotta work now . . . back later . . . thanks for the responses smiles, feel free to elaborate if you so choose. One quick question, is god the creator, or the creation?

 

[allsmiles]

Gotta work now . . . back later . . . thanks for the responses smiles, feel free to elaborate if you so choose. One quick question, is god the creator, or the creation?

both.

 

[docrob57]

So god created nature, and is nature, and god, not being conscious, or possessing self-consciousness, did this without any plan, is this correct?

 

[allsmiles]

So god created nature, and is nature, and god, not being conscious, or possessing self-consciousness, did this without any plan, is this correct?

without being too dogmatic...

:thumb:

 

[docrob57]

Would it be fair to say that, in essence, you are simply using the term "god" as a synonym for "nature?" Or is there more to it than that?

 

[allsmiles]

Would it be fair to say that, in essence, you are simply using the term "god" as a synonym for "nature?" Or is there more to it than that?

god's familiar, it's all encompassing, nature's part of it, but it also includes emotions, thought, energy, etc.

i would say that "god" is more synonymous with "reality".

 

[docrob57]

Going back to Romans 1, then, we could infer that you might fall within the class of people that Paul described as . . .

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Why to you consider your concept of God superior to the Christian concept?

 

[allsmiles]

Going back to Romans 1, then, we could infer that you might fall within the class of people that Paul described as . . .

if by "we" you mean yourself and fellow christians, than yes, i suppose it would be your duty to label according to what your holy book dictates. i was wondering though:

could you cite words of christ that support paul's assertion?

Why do you consider your concept of God superior to the Christian concept?

for starters it does not require fear or guilt. it does not entail eternal consequences, it leaves the responsibility for our goodness or evil on ourselves as individuals.

i believe that any system that "reveals" the origin of evil from a source other than the individual minds of individual humans to be in error. the same goes for goodness. we are the source of our own morality and the source of our own actions. in my system no blame exists, none for the serpent, woman, man, etc. my system is free of the moral conundrums that have been the subject of fierce debate for thousands of years amongst the religious community.

i'm of the opinion, from everything i have gathered in what studies i have done, that the moral dilemmas forced on the world by the religious community (whether it be christian or not) are ficticious in nature and create more problems than they solve.

 

[docrob57]

if by "we" you mean yourself and fellow christians, than yes, i suppose it would be your duty to label according to what your holy book dictates. i was wondering though:

could you cite words of christ that support paul's assertion?

No, but given that I believe that the entire Bible is inspired by God, this does not create a problem for me

for starters it does not require fear or guilt. it does not entail eternal consequences, it leaves the responsibility for our goodness or evil on ourselves as individuals.

I would quarrel with the notion that Christianity requires fear and guilt, but, laying that aside, fear and guilt are not, per se, bad are they? I can see why you would be uncomfortable with the idea of eternal consequences, but you would not argue that your discomfort means that they don't exist, I assume. And, certainly, Christianity does not lift the responsibility for good and evil from us. If so, please explain how.

i believe that any system that "reveals" the origin of evil from a source other than the individual minds of individual humans to be in error. the same goes for goodness. we are the source of our own morality and the source of our own actions. in my system no blame exists, none for the serpent, woman, man, etc. my system is free of the moral conundrums that have been the subject of fierce debate for thousands of years amongst the religious community.

It would appear that blame would exist for the individual in your system. Or, returning to a previous question, does morality actually exist, or is this a man-made illusion?

i'm of the opinion, from everything i have gathered in what studies i have done, that the moral dilemmas forced on the world by the religious community (whether it be christian or not) are ficticious in nature and create more problems than they solve.

Examples, please.

 

[allsmiles]

No, but given that I believe that the entire Bible is inspired by God, this does not create a problem for me

so your faith is not entirely dependant upon the words of christ?

I would quarrel with the notion that Christianity requires fear and guilt, but, laying that aside, fear and guilt are not, per se, bad are they?

no, fear and guilt aren't necessarily a bad thing, it's a case by case basis though.

I can see why you would be uncomfortable with the idea of eternal consequences, but you would not argue that your discomfort means that they don't exist, I assume.

uncomfortable isn't the word i would use. disgusted is more like it. i have accepted the slim possibility that what you folks preach is true, and i'm comfortable with that, so discomfort really isn't a word that describes how i feel about your doctrine.

And, certainly, Christianity does not lift the responsibility for good and evil from us. If so, please explain how.

if i do wrong, i have to deal with it. i don't have a savior to look to for forgiveness, i have to deal with real world issues in the real world, not a world that exists 2000 years ago between the covers of a book. i don't believe that one can have true, personal responsibility for his deeds, good or evil, if such a savior actually exists.

It would appear that blame would exist for the individual in your system. Or, returning to a previous question, does morality actually exist, or is this a man-made illusion?

everything's man made doc at least in the realm of human morality.

Examples, please.

i dunno, on a level of ideals i would have to say that death to infidels, the dominion of the planet, the murder of witches, the murder of heretics, the existence of heresy to begin with, the mandated desolation and desecration of pagan sites, christianization in general (i.e., the rape of the american indian, prohibition, the assimilation of pagan rites and holy days, etc.) and spiritual elitism in the form exclusivity.

all of these are problems inspired and acted upon by organized religion. i suppose this goes a little bit beyond the confines of christianity itself as islam is more than guilty for the suppression and persecution of other religions as well (look into the oppresion and dispersal of zoroastrianism).

 

[docrob57]

so your faith is not entirely dependant upon the words of christ?




everything's man made doc at least in the realm of human morality.



i dunno, on a level of ideals i would have to say that death to infidels, the dominion of the planet, the murder of witches, the murder of heretics, the existence of heresy to begin with, the mandated desolation and desecration of pagan sites, christianization in general (i.e., the rape of the american indian, prohibition, the assimilation of pagan rites and holy days, etc.) and spiritual elitism in the form exclusivity.

all of these are problems inspired and acted upon by organized religion. i suppose this goes a little bit beyond the confines of christianity itself as islam is more than guilty for the suppression and persecution of other religions as well (look into the oppresion and dispersal of zoroastrianism).

I consider the Bible to be the Word of God. I do not look at it as the word of Paul, the word of Peter, etc.

The fact that you are disgusted by eternal life would seem to necessarily acompany your rejection of the Savior. You are intellectually honest enough to recognize that you are not worthy of salvation. On that I congratulate you. :up: However, it appears that you reject the Savior in the hope that there is no eternal life so that you can maintain your "autonomy" relative to God without worrying about the consequences. Of course, you do worry about the consequences, otherwise you wouldn't be here.

The fact that atrocities have been committed in the name of organized religion seems to be particularly bothersome to you. Do you think that the Bible contains specific instruction to commit these atrocities, or is it possible that these things are committed by people, acting on their own, trying to justify their actions in the name of religion. Keep in mind that Christianity was also used as a basis for the abolitionist and civil rights movements.

 

[allsmiles]

I consider the Bible to be the Word of God. I do not look at it as the word of Paul, the word of Peter, etc.

maybe i wasn't clear enough when i asked the first time, no real way to dumb it down anymore so i guess i'll just repeat the question, and keep in mind, i didn't ask about paul or peter. i asked about jesus.

your faith is not entirely dependant on the words of jesus? the bible must be taken as a whole, so without the words of paul and peter the words of christ are unreliable? would it be possible to come to salvation without the words of paul or peter?

i know it's a digression, but i'm curious now that we have stumbled upon the topic.

The fact that you are disgusted by eternal life would seem to necessarily acompany your rejection of the Savior.

you speak of my disgust and rejection as if i acknowledge the reality of your beliefs, you need to stop doing that doc. i reject your beliefs on the basis of them being fiction, not fact. i have admitted before that if what you say is true i would still reject your savior, and i'm comfortable with that, but what you believe is not true, so i sleep even better at night.

You are intellectually honest enough to recognize that you are not worthy of salvation. On that I congratulate you. :up:

uh... what? i don't believe salvation exists doc, and as for the total depravity of man, that's another doctrine i reject wholly as being an invented moral dilemma. i invest my energy in giving the goodness of humanity the benefit of the doubt. mankind is in no need of redemption from anything, by anyone and until you can produce evidence from and in reality that dictates we do, i'll have to believe my eyes, and not a book.

However, it appears that you reject the Savior in the hope that there is no eternal life so that you can maintain your "autonomy" relative to God without worrying about the consequences. Of course, you do worry about the consequences, otherwise you wouldn't be here.

here you go again, speaking as though i have acknowledged the validity and reality of your beliefs and am rejecting them nonetheless. it is true, that if your beliefs were true i would reject them, but this is not the case. i acknowledge your beliefs to be what history clearly shows them to be: myth. there's nothing to reject but baseless assertions and empty, pharisaical platitudes.

and as for my being here, i've explained it dozens of times: i'm here for the entertainment value, for the "company" of the characters around here, and to strengthen myself in my own beliefs. so far your persistent and irrelevant allegations of my rebellion against a god i believe in my heart to be a myth is insulting in it's repetiveness and leads me to believe you are both not paying attention and desperately seeking to fit me into a biblical mold that i more than obviously do not fit into.

The fact that atrocities have been committed in the name of organized religion seems to be particularly bothersome to you.

what's more bothersome is that you seem to be unaffected by the reality of your faith's "glorious" church history.

Do you think that the Bible contains specific instruction to commit these atrocities, or is it possible that these things are committed by people, acting on their own, trying to justify their actions in the name of religion.

a little of both.

Exodus 22:20 - He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 34:13 - But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

Deuteronomy 2:34 - And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain

Deuteronomy 3:6 - And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Deuteronomy 7:5 - But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

Deuteronomy 12:2 - Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree

Deuteronomy 12:3 - And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

Deuteronomy 13:15 - Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Deuteronomy 20:17 - But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee

Joshua 10:40 - So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded

1 Samuel 15:3 - Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

I think you might see a theme... the word destroy. it's used 411 times in the old testament alone according to www.bible.com.

i could go on, but it's not as though your deity, ficticious as he may be, ever had any qualms about mandating murder.

Keep in mind that Christianity was also used as a basis for the abolitionist and civil rights movements.

wonderful. i'll pretend for a moment that what you say is true.

based on the above divine mandates, would you say that the good of the civil rights and abolitionist movement negates the mass slaughter commanded, demanded and directed by your god?

 

[docrob57]

maybe i wasn't clear enough when i asked the first time, no real way to dumb it down anymore so i guess i'll just repeat the question, and keep in mind, i didn't ask about paul or peter. i asked about jesus.

your faith is not entirely dependant on the words of jesus? the bible must be taken as a whole, so without the words of paul and peter the words of christ are unreliable? would it be possible to come to salvation without the words of paul or peter?

i know it's a digression, but i'm curious now that we have stumbled upon the topic.

It must be me who was unclear, it doesn't matter to me to whom in the Bible teachings are attributed (Jesus, Paul, Daniel, etc.). It is all the Word of God, in my opinion, so the fact that Jesus is not directly quoted as addressing a particular matter is not important, if someone else did address it.

you speak of my disgust and rejection as if i acknowledge the reality of your beliefs, you need to stop doing that doc. i reject your beliefs on the basis of them being fiction, not fact. i have admitted before that if what you say is true i would still reject your savior, and i'm comfortable with that, but what you believe is not true, so i sleep even better at night.

I am not trying to attribute beliefs to you, I merely note that one who rejects Christ as Savior would logically also reject eternal life, unless he really believed that he was worthy of it, which I believe you are realistic enough to know you are not.

uh... what? i don't believe salvation exists doc, and as for the total depravity of man, that's another doctrine i reject wholly as being an invented moral dilemma. i invest my energy in giving the goodness of humanity the benefit of the doubt. mankind is in no need of redemption from anything, by anyone and until you can produce evidence from and in reality that dictates we do, i'll have to believe my eyes, and not a book.

I think all you have to do is read a little history to understand the deparavity of man. If man is basically good, why don't socialist systems work?

and as for my being here, i've explained it dozens of times: i'm here for the entertainment value, for the "company" of the characters around here, and to strengthen myself in my own beliefs. so far your persistent and irrelevant allegations of my rebellion against a god i believe in my heart to be a myth is insulting in it's repetiveness and leads me to believe you are both not paying attention and desperately seeking to fit me into a biblical mold that i more than obviously do not fit into.

I know what you say about why you are here, I simply don't beleive it.

what's more bothersome is that you seem to be unaffected by the reality of your faith's "glorious" church history.

I am not bothered by these things as I do accept the thesis of total depravity. You seem to like to ignore the atrocities that much more recent athiest regimes have committed.

a little of both.

Exodus 22:20 - He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 34:13 - But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

Deuteronomy 2:34 - And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain

Deuteronomy 3:6 - And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Deuteronomy 7:5 - But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

Deuteronomy 12:2 - Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree

Deuteronomy 12:3 - And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

Deuteronomy 13:15 - Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Deuteronomy 20:17 - But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee

Joshua 10:40 - So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded

1 Samuel 15:3 - Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

I think you might see a theme... the word destroy. it's used 411 times in the old testament alone according to www.bible.com.

These were commands made to a specific people at a specific time, they are not universal commands. God is sovereign, and can do as He wishes.

i could go on, but it's not as though your deity, ficticious as he may be, ever had any qualms about mandating murder.

Sadly, you cannot prove that my Deity is fictitous. You can only assert it. That is what I am trying to figure out, why you assert it, given that even you, by Pauline standards, clearly acknowledge the existence of some type of god.

wonderful. i'll pretend for a moment that what you say is true.

I know you are young, and, therefore, not to well educated, but these things are true.

based on the above divine mandates, would you say that the good of the civil rights and abolitionist movement negates the mass slaughter commanded, demanded and directed by your god?

The movements were good, and whatever God commands is good.

 

[allsmiles]

It must be me who was unclear, it doesn't matter to me to whom in the Bible teachings are attributed (Jesus, Paul, Daniel, etc.). It is all the Word of God, in my opinion, so the fact that Jesus is not directly quoted as addressing a particular matter is not important, if someone else did address it.

i don't understand why you're having such a hard time saying "no" doc. all you have to do is say, "no, my faith is not dependant on the teachings of jesus." are the teachings of paul on the same level as jesus? are the words of nahum on the same level as the words of jesus?

I am not trying to attribute beliefs to you, I merely note that one who rejects Christ as Savior would logically also reject eternal life, unless he really believed that he was worthy of it, which I believe you are realistic enough to know you are not.

if christ is the savior, and if his salvation did promise eternal life than a rejection would entail condemnation. and as for not deserving eternal life... i dunno, i think i'm a pretty awesome guy, i don't see any reason why any god would condemn me on principle, seems petty to me. i think i deserve to go to heaven if what you say is true, and if i don't meet your god's standards than i welcome hell.

I think all you have to do is read a little history to understand the deparavity of man. If man is basically good, why don't socialist systems work?

because man has it in him to indulge both good and evil. some men indulge the evil, but i give them the benefit of the doubt until they wrong me and my loved ones. i don't believe in guilty until proven innocent.

I know what you say about why you are here, I simply don't beleive it.

my world is crushed

I am not bothered by these things as I do accept the thesis of total depravity. You seem to like to ignore the atrocities that much more recent athiest regimes have committed.

i'm not ignoring anything, i didn't realize we were suddenly talking about atheism too. just because the number of people you folks have murdered may be smaller in comparison to atheism's doesn't mean a thing.

These were commands made to a specific people at a specific time, they are not universal commands. God is sovereign, and can do as He wishes.

how charmingly cold and inhuman.

Sadly, you cannot prove that my Deity is fictitous. You can only assert it. That is what I am trying to figure out, why you assert it, given that even you, by Pauline standards, clearly acknowledge the existence of some type of god.

not sure if i understand so correct me if i'm wrong. i know that i cannot prove your deity is fictitious just as you cannot prove that he isn't. as for the pauline standard, this "standard" would have and does exist with or without him, i'm not surprised that he verifies reality.

I know you are young, and, therefore, not to well educated, but these things are true.

that was a hell of a good lesson too, i think i'm in the process of changing my mind right now

The movements were good, and whatever God commands is good.

the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children, live stock, property, the destruction of kingdoms, the sacking and raising of cities, the desecration of sacred pagan sites, etc. that's all good because your god commanded it?

you have a sick and twisted perspective and if what you say is true i'll whole heartedly reject your god as the sadistic monster he so brazenly is.

 

[docrob57]

Well, on that happy note I will have to take a break. Work is heavy, and I will be starting back to New Orleans tomorrow.

If Knight is looking, could you please grant a 2-3 day extension on this discussion. I am about to rake smiles over the coals real good.

 

[allsmiles]

i'm 6' and weigh 160lbs.

not too much to cook.