Paul says that Jesus is the LORD GOD
- Thread starter Right Divider
- Start date
Right Divider
Body part
Where you able to get the point that I was making in the OP?
Idolater
Popetard
Just a coincidence. :/
Right Divider
Body part
For sure!
No, I'm not aware of the point you are making in the OP. I just re-read it and do not know what you are implying.
Right Divider
Body part
I'm saying that Paul quotes an old testament passage about the LORD GOD judging where "ever knee shall bow" and Paul relates that attribute to the Lord Jesus Christ being the one to whom "ever knee shall bow".
In other words, Paul is directly calling Jesus the LORD GOD.
OK, I agree 100%. "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Greetings again Lon,
Kind regards
Trevor
It has been a couple of years since my post, but I had a quick glance at TOL and I had an Alert on this thread. I decided to browse the thread and discovered your question on John 8:58. My brief answer on John 8:58 is that I prefer the translation "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28 and this is part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ.
Kind regards
Trevor
Right Divider
Body part
We definitely need to translate the text in such a way that you prefer it.
Did you understand the point of the OP at all?
Greetings again Right Divider,
John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The same words also appear in the following and these are also translated "I am he":
John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Kind regards
Trevor
I mentioned that the same words in the following in the immediate context are translated "I am he".We definitely need to translate the text in such a way that you prefer it.
John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The same words also appear in the following and these are also translated "I am he":
John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Yes. Please also note that I added Posts #3,5,7,9.
Kind regards
Trevor
But that's not what the Greek actually says.
You have to add the "he" to it in order to make it say what you want it to say.
There is no "he" word in the Greek. In any of those passages.
Oh, and John 8:24, even if it did say "I am He," guess Who it would be referring to?
GOD.
Which utterly destroys any claim you have that Jesus isn't calling Himself God.
Greetings JudgeRightly,
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Kind regards
Trevor
There may not be a "he" in the Greek but every modern translation sees the need to add "he" in the English for John 8:24 and John 8:28 for it to make sense in English. No two languages can be exactly translated by simply translating the words as each has its own idiom. Is Jesus claiming to be God in John 8:28, or is he stating that he is absolutely dependent on God His Father?
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Kind regards
Trevor
I pull out google translate, Strongs (original) and have been looking things up the last few years. What I see is the accuracy of the KJV and NKJV. John 8 might also read "before Abraham, I existed", because the words mean to exist, to be. So it looks like he was saying the same thing as was told to Moses in Exodus 3.
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Because in their mind he called himself God, and doing so committed blasphemy and should be stoned to death. They knew exactly what he meant.
And because of Clete, I also look up "original meaning 2000 years ago, not a Bible translation" at Chatgpt.
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Because in their mind he called himself God, and doing so committed blasphemy and should be stoned to death. They knew exactly what he meant.
And because of Clete, I also look up "original meaning 2000 years ago, not a Bible translation" at Chatgpt.
Last edited:
Also, according to Strongs, the Greek in Revelation 1:8 says "Lord God", and he calls himself it. The Alpha and Omega, the Almighty. English translations drop the "Theos", I know that word. I also know the oldest versions are identical. We need Wes Huff to tell us what it said. Like the Catholics need the Pope to tell them what "go and sin no more" means. 
Idolater
Popetard
There is a reason to say "I am" in English, it's when you're asked a question. "Are you Nick?" "I am." It means, "I am Nick," but to just say "I am" is good grammar in English.
I'd say it's like that in the Greek too. "I am" is acceptable grammar, under the right condition. In the above example the condition is that it's an answer to a question. But in John 8, where is the question being asked? that asks "Are you so-and-so"? where is that in John 8?
When Jesus says "I am", He isn't just saying "I am Nick" or "I am the Messiah". He is saying I AM. Straight out of the Septuagint, there was no doubt what He meant, but even still, it wouldn't be clear to a random Roman or other foreigner that Christ here is claiming divinity, which is I think deliberate. If the Romans or other Gentiles found out that the Church worshiped another God, they would be in bigger trouble than they already were. The Church was accused of atheism in the early days, that's how thoroughly the New Testament disguises that Jesus very definitely does claim to be God, and so does Paul accuse Him of being God, and so does the writer of Hebrews, along with all the Gospel accounts of Him, but it wasn't out in the open anywhere, and I think that was by design to protect the Church in her early days, because if it was clear that Jesus was God, then they would have been in even worse trouble than they already were, being accused of atheism.
The only people who knew Jesus was very definitely claiming to be God, were the Jews. Jesus quotes the Septuagint in John 8's "I AM", and all the Jews would have known that, but none of the Gentiles would pick up on it. All Jesus's very clear and open and obv claims to divinity were "Jew coded". Only the Jews would pick up on it. They were all like Jew dog whistles. Only the Jews were going to hear them.
I'd say it's like that in the Greek too. "I am" is acceptable grammar, under the right condition. In the above example the condition is that it's an answer to a question. But in John 8, where is the question being asked? that asks "Are you so-and-so"? where is that in John 8?
When Jesus says "I am", He isn't just saying "I am Nick" or "I am the Messiah". He is saying I AM. Straight out of the Septuagint, there was no doubt what He meant, but even still, it wouldn't be clear to a random Roman or other foreigner that Christ here is claiming divinity, which is I think deliberate. If the Romans or other Gentiles found out that the Church worshiped another God, they would be in bigger trouble than they already were. The Church was accused of atheism in the early days, that's how thoroughly the New Testament disguises that Jesus very definitely does claim to be God, and so does Paul accuse Him of being God, and so does the writer of Hebrews, along with all the Gospel accounts of Him, but it wasn't out in the open anywhere, and I think that was by design to protect the Church in her early days, because if it was clear that Jesus was God, then they would have been in even worse trouble than they already were, being accused of atheism.
The only people who knew Jesus was very definitely claiming to be God, were the Jews. Jesus quotes the Septuagint in John 8's "I AM", and all the Jews would have known that, but none of the Gentiles would pick up on it. All Jesus's very clear and open and obv claims to divinity were "Jew coded". Only the Jews would pick up on it. They were all like Jew dog whistles. Only the Jews were going to hear them.
No one else needed to know. That was his ministry. There were no gentiles hanging around Judea other than the Roman soldier occupation.
Idolater
Popetard
... the Catholics need the Pope to tell them what "go and sin no more" means.
We do. And by pope, I mean the magisterium, which is the body of Church teachers. The pope is the head of the magisterium, he holds a unique office among his brother priests. There's only one pope, while there are numerous diocesan bishops. There are also regional and auxiliary bishops.
But yes, we definitely do need the magisterium to tell us what sin is, yes. It's a complicated subject, sin. The full context of sin includes grace, you can't understand sin fully deeply, unless you also understand grace fully deeply, and the magisterium understands this and explains it.
Go and sin no more means, satisfy your grave moral obligations, and this is the same as His yoke and His burden. Go to Mass (the sin would be a sin of omission) and avoid grave matter (the sin would be a sin of commission). Our duty as Christians is to avoid sins of omission and commission.
Idolater
Popetard
Yes, but that doesn't explain why Paul also only claims Jesus was God in Jew coded language.
There's a reason Arianism was ever a thing, there's a reason Biblical Unitarianism and Jehovah's Witnesses are a thing. It was Jew coded dog whistling, even when Paul wrote to Gentile communions, he only claimed Jesus was God in Jew code.
Right Divider
Body part
I thought that you've made some really stupid posts in the past, but this one might take the cake!
Idolater
Popetard
You've said that so many times it's lost meaning.