Paul says that Jesus is the LORD GOD

[Right Divider]

You've said that so many times it's lost meaning.

You wish.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Isolator,

When Jesus says "I am", He isn't just saying "I am Nick" or "I am the Messiah". He is saying I AM. Straight out of the Septuagint, there was no doubt what He meant, but even still, it wouldn't be clear to a random Roman or other foreigner that Christ here is claiming divinity, which is I think deliberate.

Jesus in John 8:58 is not quoting or alluding to the LXX, and it is not "Straight out of the Septuagint". There is no evidence that the normal Jewish audience spoke or understood Greek or be familiar with the LXX.

The following is the LXX rendition:
Exodus 3:12-14 (Brenton's LXX): 12 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I will be with thee, and this shall be the sign to thee that I shall send thee forth, - when thou bringest out my people out of Egypt, then ye shall serve God in this mountain. 13 nd Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them? 14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

The LXX renders the Hebrew Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh as I am THE BEING, and Ehyeh as THE BEING and as such is considered a very poor translation of the Hebrew. They have rendered the two occurrences of Ehyeh differently and dropped the third word Asher altogether. There is NO English translation from the Hebrew that gives a similar translation. Notice also that the LXX rendition of Ehyeh in Exodus 3:12 is given as "I will be", the future tense and also note that most modern English translations such as ESV, NASB, NIV also render Exodus 3:12 as "I will be". This sets the context for Exodus 3:14 that The YHWH Name does not speak only of His existence, but mainly is speaking of activity, of what God would accomplish in delivering Israel out of the bondage of Egypt and bring them into the Promised Land.

Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins also give the future tense for Exodus 3:14.

Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Right Divider]

@TrevorL This thread is not about what Jesus said about Himself. It's about how Paul calls Him God via the scripture that I quoted in the OP.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Right Divider,

@TrevorL This thread is not about what Jesus said about Himself. It's about how Paul calls Him God via the scripture that I quoted in the OP.

I was responding to what @Lon asked and what @Idolater stated and my impression is that both of these were endorsing what you stated in the OP. As far as the Opening Post is concerned I believe that Jesus represents Yahweh. As far as your thread title is concerned you use "LORD GOD", and I understand what you are trying to say, but the convention in the KJV is to use LORD God and Lord GOD for the respective Hebrew words. Perhaps you have not understood the various Hebrew words.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Right Divider]

Greetings again Right Divider,

I was responding to what @Lon asked and what @Idolater stated and my impression is that both of these were endorsing what you stated in the OP.

As well they should, as it's a simple and plain reading of scripture.

As far as the Opening Post is concerned I believe that Jesus represents Yahweh.

As well He should.... being Yahweh Himself.

As far as your thread title is concerned you use "LORD GOD", and I understand what you are trying to say, but the convention in the KJV is to use LORD God and Lord GOD for the respective Hebrew words. Perhaps you have not understood the various Hebrew words.

The verses that Paul uses are clear.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Right Divider,

As well they should, as it's a simple and plain reading of scripture.

I am not sure if @Idolater is as keen now in promoting the LXX rendition of Exodus 3:14 as he was in his original post after I pointed out that the LXX renders Ehyeh in Exodus 3:12 in the future tense "I will be" and the first occurrence of Ehyeh in Exodus 3:14 as "I am" and the second and third occurrences of Ehyeh in Exodus 3:14 as "THE BEING" and that they drop the Hebrew word Asher altogether.

And note the actual occurrence of the LXX "I am" is opposite to what he claimed:

When Jesus says "I am", He isn't just saying "I am Nick" or "I am the Messiah". He is saying I AM. Straight out of the Septuagint, there was no doubt what He meant,

The LXX has "I am THE BEING". Perhaps @Idolater is also not keen because of your response to my post with the laughter icon (sneer?)

The verses that Paul uses are clear.

You seem to be avoiding what I stated about LORD GOD. The three Hebrew words are Yahweh, Adonai and Elohim.

I was reading a commentary this morning on the Gospel of John and I am up to John 4 and the Samaritan woman. It is interesting how she understood the occurrence of "I am":
John 4:25–30 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. 27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her? 28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? 30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Idolater]

Greetings Isolator,

Jesus in John 8:58 is not quoting or alluding to the LXX, and it is not "Straight out of the Septuagint". There is no evidence that the normal Jewish audience spoke or understood Greek or be familiar with the LXX.

The following is the LXX rendition:
Exodus 3:12-14 (Brenton's LXX): 12 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I will be with thee, and this shall be the sign to thee that I shall send thee forth, - when thou bringest out my people out of Egypt, then ye shall serve God in this mountain. 13 nd Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them? 14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

The LXX renders the Hebrew Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh as I am THE BEING, and Ehyeh as THE BEING and as such is considered a very poor translation of the Hebrew. They have rendered the two occurrences of Ehyeh differently and dropped the third word Asher altogether. There is NO English translation from the Hebrew that gives a similar translation. Notice also that the LXX rendition of Ehyeh in Exodus 3:12 is given as "I will be", the future tense and also note that most modern English translations such as ESV, NASB, NIV also render Exodus 3:12 as "I will be". This sets the context for Exodus 3:14 that The YHWH Name does not speak only of His existence, but mainly is speaking of activity, of what God would accomplish in delivering Israel out of the bondage of Egypt and bring them into the Promised Land.

Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins also give the future tense for Exodus 3:14.

Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Kind regards
Trevor

I love "Isolator" that's elite.

Was thinking more like Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 51:12, plus we do all know that Yahweh is a relative to the Hebrew I AM.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Idolater

I love "Isolator" that's elite.

I apologise. I really got it wrong.

we do all know that Yahweh is a relative to the Hebrew I AM.

Yes, they are all members of the Verb To Be family and depending on the tense and context the real meaning needs to be considered.
,
I mentioned that the margin of the Revised Version has "I will be" for Exodus 3:14, and one of the supporters of this rendition could have been AB Davidson as he was one of the Hebrew scholars engaged in the production of the RV. Please note that I do not endorse all of his theology, as he was most probably a Trinitarian and also had other wrong ideas, but his Hebrew abilities have been respected and some of his Hebrew books were published in new editions until recently.

The article by AB Davidson is in the Hastings Bible Dictionary Volume 2 page 199:
"The name is connected with the Hebrew ‘hayah’, ‘to be’, in the imperfect. Now with regard to this verb, first, it does not mean ‘to be’ essentially or ontologically, but phenomenally; and secondly the imperfect has not the sense of a present (‘am’) but of a future (‘will be’). In Exodus 3:10ff, when Moses demurred to go to Egypt, God assured him saying, ‘I will be with thee’. When he asked how he should name the God of their fathers to the people, he was told Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. Again he was bidden say, ‘Ehyeh hath sent me unto you’. From all this it seems evident that in the view of the writer Ehyeh and Yahweh are the same: that God is Ehyeh, ‘I will be’, when speaking of Himself and ‘Yahweh’, ‘he will be’, when spoken of by others. What He will be is left unexpressed - He will be with them, helper, strengthener, deliverer."

Now this last comment by AB Davidson ties in with what I suggested that what God would do or be was that Yahweh would be their salvation, He would deliver Israel out of Egypt and bring them into the Promised Land. Also refer to Exodus 6:1-8 where the future tense is strongly connected with the Yahweh Name.

Kind regards
Trevor.

 

[Idolater]

Greetings again Idolater

I apologise. I really got it wrong.

Yes, they are all members of the Verb To Be family and depending on the tense and context the real meaning needs to be considered.
,
I mentioned that the margin of the Revised Version has "I will be" for Exodus 3:14, and one of the supporters of this rendition could have been AB Davidson as he was one of the Hebrew scholars engaged in the production of the RV. Please note that I do not endorse all of his theology, as he was most probably a Trinitarian and also had other wrong ideas, but his Hebrew abilities have been respected and some of his Hebrew books were published in new editions until recently.

The article by AB Davidson is in the Hastings Bible Dictionary Volume 2 page 199:
"The name is connected with the Hebrew ‘hayah’, ‘to be’, in the imperfect. Now with regard to this verb, first, it does not mean ‘to be’ essentially or ontologically, but phenomenally; and secondly the imperfect has not the sense of a present (‘am’) but of a future (‘will be’). In Exodus 3:10ff, when Moses demurred to go to Egypt, God assured him saying, ‘I will be with thee’. When he asked how he should name the God of their fathers to the people, he was told Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. Again he was bidden say, ‘Ehyeh hath sent me unto you’. From all this it seems evident that in the view of the writer Ehyeh and Yahweh are the same: that God is Ehyeh, ‘I will be’, when speaking of Himself and ‘Yahweh’, ‘he will be’, when spoken of by others. What He will be is left unexpressed - He will be with them, helper, strengthener, deliverer."

Now this last comment by AB Davidson ties in with what I suggested that what God would do or be was that Yahweh would be their salvation, He would deliver Israel out of Egypt and bring them into the Promised Land. Also refer to Exodus 6:1-8 where the future tense is strongly connected with the Yahweh Name.

Kind regards
Trevor.

Isaiah 43
10 γένεσθέ μοι μάρτυρες κἀγὼ μάρτυς λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός καὶ ὁ παῖς ὃν ἐξελεξάμην ἵνα γνῶτε καὶ πιστεύσητε καὶ συνῆτε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι ἔμπροσθέν μου οὐκ ἐγένετο ἄλλος θεὸς καὶ μετ᾽ ἐμὲ οὐκ ἔσται

$$ Isa 43:10
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.


Isaiah 51
12 ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ παρακαλῶν σε· γνῶθι τίνα εὐλαβηθεῖσα ἐφοβήθης ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπου θνητοῦ καὶ ἀπὸ υἱοῦ ἀνθρώπου, οἳ ὡσεὶ χόρτος ἐξηράνθησαν.

$$ Isa 51:12
I, [even] I, [am] he that comforteth you: who [art] thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man [that] shall die, and of the son of man [which] shall be made [as] grass;

 

[Right Divider]

You seem to be avoiding what I stated about LORD GOD. The three Hebrew words are Yahweh, Adonai and Elohim.

Trevor, you are a poor little deaf and blind cult follower. You are destined for the lake of fire. It's very sad.

The only one avoiding the issue of this thread is YOU.

Again, Paul QUOTES an old testament verse were the LORD GOD states that all will bow the knee to HIM and Paul equated the ONE that this bowing the knee is to is JESUS.

This makes perfect sense since the Father has given ALL judgement to His SON. And that ALL should honor the SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (i.e., they are BOTH GOD).

John 5:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: (5:23) That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.​

Are you so foolish as to believe that the Father would give all judgement to a man?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Right Divider and JudgeRightly,

Trevor, you are a poor little deaf and blind cult follower. You are destined for the lake of fire. It's very said.

"said"? perhaps "sad". It is interesting that you then speak of the fact "the Father has given ALL judgement to His SON" and here you try to belittle me in a nasty way and have already passed me over to the lake of fire. I doubt that we will be dragged in front of the Judgement Seat of Christ to resolve our present differences here, as each one of us are like big frogs in a very small pond. I personally consider that we will all be very surprised in that day as to who is accepted and who is rejected. Only Jesus truly knows the hearts.
1 Corinthians 4:3–5 (KJV): 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

It is time for me to move on. I had not participated in TOL for 2 years and was surprised to see an alert by @Lon when I glanced at your forum. I checked to see if he was still active, and he had posted or visited about a month ago. I will move on now, but if Lon replies to me and is willing to further discuss John 8:58 with me in this hostile environment then I will attempt to answer him. I have not yet discussed the immediate context of John 8:58 and one of the verses that is important is the relevance of Jesus' statement:
John 8:56 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

I see the need to concentrate on other matters and spend less time on considering forums. I consider my time may be short, possibly shorter if Jesus returns, but I am now 81 y.o., and I had a serious sickness at the beginning of last year and was in hospital for six weeks, and this included a resuscitation.

Are you so foolish as to believe that the Father would give all judgement to a man?

Is the following speaking about a human, the descendant of David, who is also the Son of God, or is it speaking about GOD the Son?
Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Right Divider]

"said"? perhaps "sad".

Typo... fixed.

It is interesting that you then speak of the fact "the Father has given ALL judgement to His SON" and here you have already passed me over to the lake of fire.

I'm just agreeing with what the Bible says. Those that reject Christ are doomed.

I doubt that we will be dragged in front of the Judgement Seat of Christ to resolve our present differences here, as each one of us are like big frogs in a very small pond.

You won't be at the judgement seat of Christ. That is for believers.
You'll be at the great white throne judgement... very sad.

 

[TrevorL]

I have not yet discussed the immediate context of John 8:58 and one of the verses that is important is the relevance of Jesus' statement:
John 8:56 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Shortly after posting here above, I found it interesting that on another forum, (possibly a bit more friendly environment), soon after a member posted the following on the subject of John 8:58:
Yeshua answered both questions in John Chapter 8 :58 pertaining to verses 53 and 57, simultaneously...with cleverness and class.

Yeshua claimed to be greater than Abraham (question from verse 53), asserting that Abraham had seen His day and rejoiced in anticipation of the Messiah’s coming (question from verse 57). This claim is rooted in the belief that Abraham, through divine revelation, received a prophetic glimpse of the future redemptive work of Jesus Christ. Yeshua was in the divine plan of his God for our salvation, as Messiah. This conforms to John's theme of the role of the Son of God, as the Son of Man and also the Messiah.

Yeshua answered both questions in John Chapter 8 :58 pertaining to verses 53 and 57, simultaneously...with cleverness and class.

Yeshua claimed to be greater than Abraham (question from verse 53), asserting that Abraham had seen His day and rejoiced in anticipation of the Messiah’s coming (question from verse 57). This claim is rooted in the belief that Abraham, through divine revelation, received a prophetic glimpse of the future redemptive work of Jesus Christ. Yeshua was in the divine plan of his God for our salvation, as Messiah. This conforms to John's theme of the role of the Son of God, as the Son of Man and also the Messiah.

According to the Gospel of John, Jesus declared, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad” , indicating that Abraham had a spiritual vision of the Messiah’s arrival, even though he lived centuries before Jesus’ earthly ministry.

Several biblical events are interpreted as moments when Abraham may have seen or experienced a foreshadowing of Jesus’ day. In Genesis Chapter 14, Abraham encountered Melchizedek, a priest-king of Salem who blessed him and was later identified in the New Testament as a type of Christ, a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. This encounter is seen as a prophetic anticipation of Jesus’ eternal priesthood and his superiority over Abraham.

Yes, Abraham was renowned as the father of the Hebrews, and Pharisees, and a friend of God, although, Yeshua existed in the mind and divine plan of his Father, who is God, to be his son and his Messiah of our salvation. Of a much higher rank or status than Abraham, and his contribution to the divine plan of God.

Stones were ready to fly...the Pharisees never believed that Yeshua was the real Messiah, maybe a few, watching him on the Cross, changed their minds.

Several biblical events are interpreted as moments when Abraham may have seen or experienced a foreshadowing of Jesus’ day. In Genesis Chapter 14, Abraham encountered Melchizedek, a priest-king of Salem who blessed him and was later identified in the New Testament as a type of Christ, a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. This encounter is seen as a prophetic anticipation of Jesus’ eternal priesthood and his superiority over Abraham.

Yes, Abraham was renowned as the father of the Hebrews, and Pharisees, and a friend of God, although, Yeshua existed in the mind and divine plan of his Father, who is God, to be his son and his Messiah of our salvation. Of a much higher rank or status than Abraham, and his contribution to the divine plan of God.

Stones were ready to fly...the Pharisees never believed that Yeshua was the real Messiah, maybe a few, watching him on the Cross, changed their minds.

I quoted his statement:
According to the Gospel of John, Jesus declared, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad” , indicating that Abraham had a spiritual vision of the Messiah’s arrival, even though he lived centuries before Jesus’ earthly ministry.

And my reply was:
As a result of the events of Genesis 22, Abraham not only foresaw the Ministry of Jesus, but that he would be the perfect Lamb of the true Burnt Offering.

Genesis 22:7–8 (KJV): 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Thus Abraham also understood to some extent the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus:
Genesis 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen

.
Hebrews 11:17–19 (KJV): 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Nick M]

Stones were ready to fly.

Because they knew exactly what he meant.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Nick M,

Because they knew exactly what he meant.

Yes, I agree that they knew exactly what he meant. I suggest that when they understood "John 8:56 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.", then they deliberately muddied the water in order to stir up the crowd, hoping that some gullible person would throw the first stone. But the audience saw through their subterfuge, partly based upon the events that happened at the beginning of John 8 where the subject ended up as to who would cast the first stone. We need to be careful not to follow the Pharisees here.

Kind regards
Trevor