Theology Club: Predestination, Election and Freewill and the Sovereignty of God

lesjude

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Romans 8:28-30
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
These terms are little understood. One reason is Calvin's teaching on the subject is often confused with the false teachings of hyper-Calvinism.
Here is predestination summarized: Ephesians 1:4
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
The believer was elected before he was even born or the world was made.
Ephesians 1:5
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
The following verse is predestination which is God's SOVEREIGN eternal plan by which He foreordained all things to come to pass.
Ephesians 1:11
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
This plan is UNCONDITIONAL. meaning he consulted no one. He did as He wanted. He planned EVERYTHING,AND he knew the outcome, because He predestined all events that come to pass.
Now here is where people miss it. This eternal, before the earth was formed, sovereign plan INCLUDED MAN'S FREE WILL CHOICES AND ACTIONS! Example: Joseph's brothers made a free will choice to sell him into slavery, but:
Genesis 50:20
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
Another example: Isaiah 10:5-12
5 “ Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.
6 I will send him against an ungodly nation,
And against the people of My wrath
I will give him charge,
To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 Yet he does not mean so,
Nor does his heart think so;
But it is in his heart to destroy,
And cut off not a few nations.
8 For he says,

‘ Are not my princes altogether kings?
9 Is not Calno like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad?
Is not Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose carved images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 As I have done to Samaria and her idols,
Shall I not do also to Jerusalem and her idols?’”

12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.”
Assyria did what was in their heart by a free will choice. However they were fulfilling God's eternal plan. Predestination.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE
Acts 2:22-23
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[a] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; This was predestined but clearly a free will choice. From mans side he makes a free will choice because these free will choices have been predestined.
Acts 4:27-28
27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
The free will choice is also true in the matter of redemption. God predestined and elected those who would believe as part of the eternal plan before the world began as we have seen already. Here is the scripture:
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You see here the eternal predestined plan and the free will response of His elect chosen before the foundation of the earth. They were elect but must respond to the gospel by their free will.
It is VERY important that one sees that God's eternal plan had to be unconditional. If any part of the plan was conditioned on what man might or might not do the whole plan would be conditional and uncertain. God is sovereign and not dependent on what man or the devil might do. Jesus was predetermined to be betrayed by Judas. Judas was held accountable because he made the free will choice to do it.
God has foreknowledge or perfect knowledge and certainty of all events. Acts 15:18
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.[a]
NOTHING takes God by surprise!
Election is the sovereign choice of His people before the foundation of the world. He says they will be effectually called, justified, and glorified because it was predestined. See Romans 8:29-30.
Election is NOT God foreseeing who would believe by looking down history and saving those who believe. This would be works and not grace.
2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Does this all mean that it is fatalism which is what Hyper-Calvinism believes?
NO! We are to pray, evangelize, teach, preach because this is what God has predestined us to do. We do not know who is or is not elect or how prayers will effect events in advance. The elect have to hear the gospel and respond which they will do by a preordained free will choice. The lost hear the general call and reject it by their own free will. Here it is in Jesus' words: John 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” THESE WERE HIS DISCIPLES! HE HAD TAUGHT THEM JUST LIKE THE REST OF HIS DISCIPLES.
John 5:39-40
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Why does God give a general call by the preaching of the gospel or by Romans 1:18-22 and people's conscience? So they will be responsible for their free will choice.

What about 'fairness' in all of this? Here is what the Bible says:
Romans 9:12-26
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[c] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[d] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea:


“ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[e]
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

‘ You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[
If God is not sovereign He is not God. He is perfectly fair and just in ALL that He does, which includes predestination and election.
Here is what John Calvin taught in a brief summary and is essentially in line with scripture.1. Man is totally lost in sin and cannot choose salvation apart from grace. 2. Unconditional election: God chooses who He will. 3. Limited atonement: Christ died savingly for the elect. 4. Irresistible (effective) grace: God's grace produces the effect for which it was intended. 5. Perseverance of the saints. All those God calls and saves will endure to the end. (This is not once saved always saved because salvation is a walk (enduring) not just receiving Jesus, getting baptized, and joining a 'church'.) Please know that the next breath, for both the saved and unsaved, is dependent upon God's grace!
Hyper-Calvinism has perverted Calvin's teaching into fatalism which results in no evangelism, little prayer or intercession, and carelessness of living for Jesus.
 

lesjude

New member
In summation?
Predestination, election and freewill are taught throughout the Bible with numerous examples which I have not included.
If God is not sovereign He is not God. He is perfectly fair and just in ALL that He does, which includes predestination and election.
Here is what John Calvin taught in a brief summary and is essentially in line with scripture.1. Man is totally lost in sin and cannot choose salvation apart from grace. 2. Unconditional election: God chooses who He will. 3. Limited atonement: Christ died savingly for the elect. 4. Irresistible (effective) grace: God's grace produces the effect for which it was intended. 5. Perseverance of the saints. All those God calls and saves will endure to the end. (This is not once saved always saved because salvation is a walk (enduring) not just receiving Jesus, getting baptized, and joining a 'church'.)
 

lesjude

New member
Agreed. What do you think the term sovereign means?

A "sovereign" is one who possesses original and supreme jurisdiction and power, and is subject to nothing or no one. God's providence, election, predestination, foreknowledge, grace, redemption, and salvation are all actions of His sovereignty.
 

Desert Reign

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Romans 8:28-30

These terms are little understood. One reason is Calvin's teaching on the subject is often confused with the false teachings of hyper-Calvinism.

Calvin taught that God gave some people a less than effective experience of the Spirit which made them both look and feel exactly like a true Christian but which was not sufficient to grant them regeneration, the outcome being that they would eventually backslide or fall away from the faith. And Calvin taught that his purpose in doing so was to judge them all the more on the day of judgement on the grounds that they knew of his Spirit but were not born again.

At least one person on this forum who claims to be a Calvinist has distanced himself from such teaching, which frankly is morally repugnant. Would you regard this as hypo-Calvinism as distinct from hyper-Calvinism?
 

Son of Jack

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A "sovereign" is one who possesses original and supreme jurisdiction and power, and is subject to nothing or no one. God's providence, election, predestination, foreknowledge, grace, redemption, and salvation are all actions of His sovereignty.

Okay. I agree with that definition. Would a sovereign remain sovereign if he chose not to exercise his power? Or, if he allowed his subjects to have a measure of power, not over and against his power but within the scope of his own power?
 

lesjude

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Calvin taught that God gave some people a less than effective experience of the Spirit which made them both look and feel exactly like a true Christian but which was not sufficient to grant them regeneration, the outcome being that they would eventually backslide or fall away from the faith. And Calvin taught that his purpose in doing so was to judge them all the more on the day of judgement on the grounds that they knew of his Spirit but were not born again.

At least one person on this forum who claims to be a Calvinist has distanced himself from such teaching, which frankly is morally repugnant. Would you regard this as hypo-Calvinism as distinct from hyper-Calvinism?
No one and I repeat no one can say a professing Christian is unsaved. All that can be said if they are in sin/have no fruit is that the Bible gives them no guarantee. Lot was righteous but had nothing but extremely bad fruit in his life.
Does Calvin give any scripture for this? The wheat and tares and Matthew 7:21-24 come to mind. God does not deceive people. Religion, themselves, and the devil are sufficient for that. God however has to allow it and they make the free will choice.
 

lesjude

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[QUOTE
=Son of Jack;3240121]Okay. I agree with that definition. Would a sovereign remain sovereign if he chose not to exercise his power?
Yes.
Or, if he allowed his subjects to have a measure of power, not over and against his power but within the scope of his own power?
[/QUOTE]

God gives a measure of power to disciples to do Mark 16:15-18 and Matthew 10:7-8. Also to live the heart of Christianity which is Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
 

Lighthouse

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Predestination, election and freewill are taught throughout the Bible with numerous examples which I have not included.
If God is not sovereign He is not God. He is perfectly fair and just in ALL that He does, which includes predestination and election.
Here is what John Calvin taught in a brief summary and is essentially in line with scripture.1. Man is totally lost in sin and cannot choose salvation apart from grace. 2. Unconditional election: God chooses who He will. 3. Limited atonement: Christ died savingly for the elect. 4. Irresistible (effective) grace: God's grace produces the effect for which it was intended. 5. Perseverance of the saints. All those God calls and saves will endure to the end. (This is not once saved always saved because salvation is a walk (enduring) not just receiving Jesus, getting baptized, and joining a 'church'.)
So, is it your argument that the open view is wrong?
 

Desert Reign

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No one and I repeat no one can say a professing Christian is unsaved.

But you can say that they might be unsaved. Calvin said that some professing Christians are unsaved. And that you can't tell the difference between one that is saved and one that isn't. They both look the same on the outside and they both feel the same on the inside. The only way you can tell which one is unsaved is when they eventually fall away from the faith because God never gave them the full regenerating operation of the Spirit. This means that all the ones who are really saved, you can't know that they are really saved until they die because you can't know in advance if they are going to fall away and turn out to be one of those who weren't saved.

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In which he alludes to Hebrews 6: 4-6 and the parable of the sower.

And as I said, according to Calvin, these people who look and feel exactly like born again Christians but who will eventually fall away, are only professing Christians by the decree of God so that God can judge them even harder in the day of judgement.

So what is your position? If this morally repugnant position is Calvinism then what do you understand hyper-Calvinism to be? Could anything be worse? Or are you another hypo-Calvinist?

Here's a related question: If all As are B that doesn't mean that all Bs are A. Logic 101. It may be true that all those who are saved display the fruits of the Spirit and testify to belief in Jesus and say "Abba, Father" (as Calvin stated) but it does not follow that all those who display the fruits of the Spirit and testify to belief in Jesus are saved. Where then is your assurance as an individual that you are saved?
 
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Totton Linnet

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T Total depravity is a misnomer and should be jettisoned for a better term...man is quite incapable of saving himself or of helping it in any way.
U Our salvation is FREE and unmerited, God insists upon it.
L is brought in only to shore up double predestination for which there is not a scrap of scripture....God predestined no man to damnation.
I God is IRresistable in His day of power. :)
P We WILL persevere and we WILL be preserved. We partake of meat which perisheth not but ENDURETH unto eternal life.

Only an ALL knowing God could guarantee the predestiny and election of the church.
 
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lesjude

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So, is it your argument that the open view is wrong?

The Bible teaches that God is sovereign and is not dependent on any action or inaction of men for His plans or purposes to come to pass. If God "reacts" or dependent in the least to men's freewill choices then He is not sovereign and therefore not God.
My position is God is sovereign and to say otherwise is not in agreement with the Bible.
 

lesjude

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But you can say that they might be unsaved. Calvin said that some professing Christians are unsaved. And that you can't tell the difference between one that is saved and one that isn't. They both look the same on the outside and they both feel the same on the inside. The only way you can tell which one is unsaved is when they eventually fall away from the faith because God never gave them the full regenerating operation of the Spirit. This means that all the ones who are really saved, you can't know that they are really saved until they die because you can't know in advance if they are going to fall away and turn out to be one of those who weren't saved.

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In which he alludes to Hebrews 6: 4-6 and the parable of the sower.

And as I said, according to Calvin, these people who look and feel exactly like born again Christians but who will eventually fall away, are only professing Christians by the decree of God so that God can judge them even harder in the day of judgement.

So what is your position? If this morally repugnant position is Calvinism then what do you understand hyper-Calvinism to be? Could anything be worse? Or are you another hypo-Calvinist?

Here's a related question: If all As are B that doesn't mean that all Bs are A. Logic 101. It may be true that all those who are saved display the fruits of the Spirit and testify to belief in Jesus and say "Abba, Father" (as Calvin stated) but it does not follow that all those who display the fruits of the Spirit and testify to belief in Jesus are saved. Where then is your assurance as an individual that you are saved?
Here is the assurance:Ephesians 1:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

I recommend a careful study of the book of 1 John. It is very clear about what a Christian can know and be certain of in His relationship with Jesus. It will answer your questions. Paul says test yourself to see if you are in the faith. No one can do that for anyone else, not even John Calvin.
What Calvin failed to realize is that God has an individual plan for each of His children. It is a good thing because he would be in hell right now as he had a lot of blood on his hands. In fact, just maybe.... It is not one size fits all because then it becomes works: i.e. bear the fruit of the spirit by your own self efforts, along with all the other religious activities which are what ever the denomination/group says or implies is required. This is what "Calvinism" became. Real fruit comes from a heart change and only God knows the heart. A good example is Lot. He had nothing but rotten fruit, but was declared righteous by God.
The key is walking in the light you have from a WILLING heart and seeking Jesus for more light with the intent of obeying. From God's side He gives the grace and training to do it.
You could read over Matthew 13:18-23 and Matthew 13:24-30.
It has been my observation that few Christians have much interest in receiving the Holy Spirit power and training to live Matthew 5, 6 and 7 before God and man which is the heart of NT Christianity. No one, I repeat no one can live this without the Holy Spirit working it in their lives. Can anyone say they are not saved. No. Remember Lot and the fact that God looks at each individual heart.
The Bible bears out my observation: Matthew 7:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)
The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
And of course there is Matthew 7:21-29.
Now as to the issue of harsher punishment for tares from God and Him setting them up for it the Bible does not teach that. It teaches that everyone makes a freewill choice about their obedience to God.

In fact the only ones that get a stricter judgement are teachers of the word which would include John Calvin et al.
 

Desert Reign

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lesjude:

Respectfully, but you haven't answered my question. Quoting scripture doesn't really help. I'm not asking for a scripture reference to support your belief, I'm asking you to explain how it works. There are lots of people who seem to tick all the boxes, including Eph 1 as you quote. But they still fall away. How can you be sure now that you are not one of these?

Let me put it to you in plain language. You can't. You can't be sure that you are not going to fall away because you are not privileged to know the predestined plan of God.
 

lesjude

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lesjude:

Respectfully, but you haven't answered my question. Quoting scripture doesn't really help. I'm not asking for a scripture reference to support your belief, I'm asking you to explain how it works. There are lots of people who seem to tick all the boxes, including Eph 1 as you quote. But they still fall away. How can you be sure now that you are not one of these?

Let me put it to you in plain language. You can't. You can't be sure that you are not going to fall away because you are not privileged to know the predestined plan of God.
I John says I can know for myself and Acts 16:31 says I can know for those God has given me.
Here is scripture that shows we can know:
1 Corinthians 2:9-16

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[a]

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[c] But we have the mind of Christ.
Here is what the bible says is required to know these things:
Acts 2:38-39
New King James Version (NKJV)
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

And here is how the apostles applied these requirements:
Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
T Total depravity is a misnomer and should be jettisoned for a better term...man is quite incapable of saving himself or of helping it in any way.
U Our salvation is FREE and unmerited, God insists upon it.
L is brought in only to shore up double predestination for which there is not a scrap of scripture....God predestined no man to damnation.
I God is IRresistable in His day of power. :)
P We WILL persevere and we WILL be preserved. We partake of meat which perisheth not but ENDURETH unto eternal life.

Only an ALL knowing God could guarantee the predestiny and election of the church.

Limited Atonement is taught by Calvinists to "shore up" Unconditional Election.

One of my examples of divine salvation according to TULIP goes like this:

Total Depravity = Reveals the problem.

Unconditional Election = Reveals the remedy.

Limited Atonement = Reveals the means.

Irresistible Grace = Reveals the application.

Perseverance of the Saints = Reveals the results.

Nang
 

surrender

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The Bible teaches that God is sovereign and is not dependent on any action or inaction of men for His plans or purposes to come to pass. If God "reacts" or dependent in the least to men's freewill choices then He is not sovereign and therefore not God.
God is unable to allow His creatures free will and still remain sovereign? The fact that I allow my child to have freedom to choose in various situations means I am subject to my child? Doesn't make sense to me.
 

Totton Linnet

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God is unable to allow His creatures free will and still remain sovereign? The fact that I allow my child to have freedom to choose in various situations means I am subject to my child? Doesn't make sense to me.

No but you ARE responsible if you give your child freewill and your child behaves wickedly, freewillery puts the blame squarely upon God for man's sin, God did not give man freewill He forbade him [just as YOU forbid your children] to partake in evil.

What part of freewill forbid spells freewill to you?
 

Totton Linnet

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God is not qualified to judge under OVT

God is not qualified to judge under OVT

For He would not have foreseen all that led up to a sin being committed and therefore would be unable to strive against it. This would make God to blame for great wickedness committed by man.
 
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