Theology Club: Predestination, Election and Freewill and the Sovereignty of God

[Pneuma]

I carefully explained this in God's permissive control. They are still fulfilling God's predestined plan even in their rebellion.

Which is then according to Gods will. However the scriptures tell us sin and disobedience is NOT according to Gods will.

Basically what you are saying is God made a predestined plan that people would sin, but He is not responsible for the sin in His own plans.

All the sin is by freewill, predestined, foreknown by God, and part of His overall plan. If not then He is not sovereign and not God.

Huh? If it is predestined and foreknown because He planned it all out then there is no such thing as freewill.

The scripture refers to the predestined elect as should be obvious because the Bible is clear that not all will be saved.

Total nonsense.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11These things command and teach.

It is not His will that any of the elect perish so He allows time so that all of them will hear the effectual call and respond by receiving Christ. How many generations/centuries is that? All Peter is saying is this may take a long time so do not get discouraged or murmur against God.

Did Adam perish? Was he not a son of God?
Your understanding of predestination is in error and your understanding of the elect/firstfruits is in error.

God predestinated the church, not the individuals in the church. And the firstfuit's are but the promise of the whole harvest.

 

[rocketman]

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

That scripture alone is enough to show it is NOT according to Gods will that any should perish.

Yet it is your belief that God predestinated and planned it all out so that many perish.

The fallacy which is calvinism in a nutshell...

 

[lesjude]

=Pneuma;3244948]Which is then according to Gods will. However the scriptures tell us sin and disobedience is NOT according to Gods will.
Basically what you are saying is God made a predestined plan that people would sin, but He is not responsible for the sin in His own plans.

No, He created man and they freely choose to sin. He directs the circumstances, sequences, influences, and timing to serve His predestined plan. At times he directly intervenes. Pharoah freely chose to afflict the people of God. God limited him, sustained Him in it (allowing him to live), allowed him to work out his own desires. He ensured Pharaoh would not stop until God's predestined plan was fulfilled by hardening Pharaoh's heart.
Read John 19:7-16 and you will see it all except directive control i.e.God directly doing something like hardening Pilate's heart.

Huh? If it is predestined and foreknown because He planned it all out then there is no such thing as freewill.

See explanation of man's freewill above. God simply channels that freewill.

Total nonsense.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11These things command and teach.

Only those that believe will be saved. You have to take the whole revelation. Here is what Paul did not say that he already said several times.
2 Timothy 1:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

This is the predestined elect.
Here is Paul again:
Ephesians 1:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

AND AGAIN
Romans 8:29-30

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Did Adam perish? Was he not a son of God?
Your understanding of predestination is in error and your understanding of the elect/firstfruits is in error.

We have life in Christ. You need to give scripture for that points out the error that refutes the scripture that proves election/predestination

God predestinated the church, not the individuals in the church. And the firstfuit's are but the promise of the whole harvest.

The church is the individual people who are born again, water baptized in Jesus name by immersion, with the Acts 2:4 experience. The Bible teaches nothing else.

 

[OMEGA]

Pneuma said,

God predestinated the church, not the individuals in the church.

And the firstfuit's are but the promise of the whole harvest.

----This is True.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Calvinism does NOT believe in Free Will but believe that the elect,

chosen for salvation, were known to God from before the creation

which the Bible does Not indicate.
========================================

 

[lesjude]

Pneuma said,

God predestinated the church, not the individuals in the church.

The church is the individual people who are born again, water baptized in Jesus name by immersion, with the Acts 2:4 experience. The Bible teaches nothing else.
And the firstfuit's are but the promise of the whole harvest.

----This is True.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated

according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This verifies and supports election and predestination.

Calvinism does NOT believe in Free Will but believe that the elect,

chosen for salvation, were known to God from before the creation

which the Bible does Not indicate.

Calvinism believes and teaches freewill. The elect hear the gospel and by grace make a freewill choice to receive Christ by faith.
The rest hear the call and make a freewill choice to reject it. They do not get God's sovereign grace.
========================================

 

[lesjude]

The fallacy which is calvinism in a nutshell...

Matthew 7:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)
The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

They make freewill choices not to from their side. From God's side they were not chosen/ drawn by the Father.
John 6:64-66

New King James Version (NKJV)

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
And
John 6:37

New King James Version (NKJV)

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

 

[Pneuma]

No, He created man and they freely choose to sin. He directs the circumstances, sequences, influences, and timing to serve His predestined plan. At times he directly intervenes. Pharoah freely chose to afflict the people of God. God limited him, sustained Him in it (allowing him to live), allowed him to work out his own desires. He ensured Pharaoh would not stop until God's predestined plan was fulfilled by hardening Pharaoh's heart.
Read John 19:7-16 and you will see it all except directive control i.e.God directly doing something like hardening Pilate's heart.

If God planned everything out and is sovereign in every detail then there is no such thing as freewill.
You simply cannot say God created man and man freely sinned and then turn around and say God planned it all out or predestinated it so that man would sin. What you teach is simply that God planned out or is the architect of all the sins in this world.

Only those that believe will be saved.

And ALL will believe for every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

You have to take the whole revelation.

Yes you do, which you obviously have not.

Here is what Paul did not say that he already said several times.
2 Timothy 1:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

This is the predestined elect.
Here is Paul again:
Ephesians 1:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

AND AGAIN
Romans 8:29-30

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Those scriptures are all about the body of Christ, not individuals.

We have life in Christ. You need to give scripture for that points out the error that refutes the scripture that proves election/predestination

I am not arguing against election/predestination I am arguing against your understanding of them

The church is the individual people who are born again, water baptized in Jesus name by immersion, with the Acts 2:4 experience. The Bible teaches nothing else.

The church is made up of individuals but no individual is the church and it is the church or body of Christ that is predestinated not the individuals.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If God planned everything out and is sovereign in every detail then there is no such thing as freewill.
You simply cannot say God created man and man freely sinned and then turn around and say God planned it all out or predestinated it so that man would sin. What you teach is simply that God planned out or is the architect of all the sins in this world.







And ALL will believe for every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.







Yes you do, which you obviously have not.






Those scriptures are all about the body of Christ, not individuals.





I am not arguing against election/predestination I am arguing against your understanding of them







The church is made up of individuals but no individual is the church and it is the church or body of Christ that is predestinated not the individuals.

That's right, 's' no such thing as freewill except God. Man's will Paul teaches is in bondage, that is it is a slave, John says that "the whole world lieth in the wicked one.

Man had no freewill to sin, God forbade it, what part of forbade spells freewill to you? God said "in the day that you partake of the tree... I will impose My will upon you...you will surely die"

So God is not responsible for sin man is. You say man chose, that's right, he chose to live under the imposition of God's will "you will surely die."

See devil deceived the man into believing that he could sin and that God would not impose His sovereign will "you will surely die"
devil deceived the man into believing he had freewill to sin.

Freewill IS that deception, God still says "you will die" devil says "you will not die." it's a lie, the world believes it, and worse still the church believes it.

Predestination is those who God "foreknew" if you say it is a chance deal and everyone who joins the church or by some good luck gets saved then you are saying "who He by no means foreknew He also preplanned..." hang on a minute that don't make sense.

No it doesn't.

 

[Pneuma]

That's right, 's' no such thing as freewill except God.

Is that not the same thing as saying God is the author of sin? I don't see how you can escape that scenario if man does not have freewill and God planned it all out that way.

Man's will Paul teaches is in bondage, that is it is a slave,

That is NOT what Paul teaches, you need to read those scriptures again.

John says that "the whole world lieth in the wicked one.

Well if all the evil and sins in this world are of Gods design is that not the same as saying God is the wicked one?

Man had no freewill to sin, God forbade it, what part of forbade spells freewill to you? God said "in the day that you partake of the tree... I will impose My will upon you...you will surely die"

Freewill is the ability to make a choice regardless of the consequences. Do you remember the old cartoons that showed the devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other shoulder? Both of them trying to get the person to choose their side. Neither the devil nor the angel could make the choice for the person, the person had to make the choice for themselves.

And you have a very wrong understanding of in the day you eat you will die. God was NOT imposing His will on Adam. All Gods commandments are ordained unto life, they are warnings of what will happen if one disobeys His commandments. Gods will for Adam was that he would obey and live, not that he would disobey and die.

God simply knew that if Adam was disobedient he would die, not that God was imposing His will of death upon Adam.

So God is not responsible for sin man is. You say man chose, that's right, he chose to live under the imposition of God's will "you will surely die."

How can man make a choice if man has no freewill to make that choice? If God foreordained, predestinated and planned for man to sin where is the choice of man to do any different?

See devil deceived the man into believing that he could sin and that God would not impose His sovereign will "you will surely die"
devil deceived the man into believing he had freewill to sin.

Freewill IS that deception, God still says "you will die" devil says "you will not die." it's a lie, the world believes it, and worse still the church believes it.

Again you have a very wrong understanding of those scriptures. True, The devil deceived the woman into believing she would not die if she ate. Thus the devil corrupted or sowed tares in the field.

A man standing on a very high cliff. God says to the man if you jump off the cliff you will die. The devil say you will not die if you jump off the cliff. Neither the devil nor God makes the choice for man whether he will jump or not, that choice is mans and mans alone. Man jumped.

Now was it Gods sovereign will that man jumped and died or was it because God knew because of the law of gravity that if man jumped he would die?

And Satan used this exact scenario that worked so well with Adam with Jesus Christ. Jump says Satan, you will not die for God will give His angels to save you lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Did not work out so well for Satan this time.

Predestination is those who God "foreknew" if you say it is a chance deal and everyone who joins the church or by some good luck gets saved then you are saying "who He by no means foreknew He also preplanned..." hang on a minute that don't make sense.

No it doesn't.

Yes and God foreknew and predestinated that Christ would have a body. That does not mean that each individual within the body was predestinated to be in the body. And only those that overcome of all Gods people will be the body of Christ. So it has NOTHING to do with good luck it has to do with total obedience to the Father which will be the cause off us overcoming sin, Satan and the world.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Is that not the same thing as saying God is the author of sin? I don't see how you can escape that scenario if man does not have freewill and God planned it all out that way.



That is NOT what Paul teaches, you need to read those scriptures again.





Well if all the evil and sins in this world are of Gods design is that not the same as saying God is the wicked one?



Freewill is the ability to make a choice regardless of the consequences. Do you remember the old cartoons that showed the devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other shoulder? Both of them trying to get the person to choose their side. Neither the devil nor the angel could make the choice for the person, the person had to make the choice for themselves.

And you have a very wrong understanding of in the day you eat you will die. God was NOT imposing His will on Adam. All Gods commandments are ordained unto life, they are warnings of what will happen if one disobeys His commandments. Gods will for Adam was that he would obey and live, not that he would disobey and die.

God simply knew that if Adam was disobedient he would die, not that God was imposing His will of death upon Adam.



How can man make a choice if man has no freewill to make that choice? If God foreordained, predestinated and planned for man to sin where is the choice of man to do any different?





Again you have a very wrong understanding of those scriptures. True, The devil deceived the woman into believing she would not die if she ate. Thus the devil corrupted or sowed tares in the field.

A man standing on a very high cliff. God says to the man if you jump off the cliff you will die. The devil say you will not die if you jump off the cliff. Neither the devil nor God makes the choice for man whether he will jump or not, that choice is mans and mans alone. Man jumped.

Now was it Gods sovereign will that man jumped and died or was it because God knew because of the law of gravity that if man jumped he would die?

And Satan used this exact scenario that worked so well with Adam with Jesus Christ. Jump says Satan, you will not die for God will give His angels to save you lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Did not work out so well for Satan this time.





Yes and God foreknew and predestinated that Christ would have a body. That does not mean that each individual within the body was predestinated to be in the body. And only those that overcome of all Gods people will be the body of Christ. So it has NOTHING to do with good luck it has to do with total obedience to the Father which will be the cause off us overcoming sin, Satan and the world.

God did not preplan sin He foreknew it and preplanned our redemption from it.

Bondage to sin before we come to Christ is EXACTLY what Paul teaches in ALL his letters.
Galatians 4

Howbeit then when ye knew not God ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods But NOW after that ye have known God or rather are known of God how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements whereunto ye desire again to BE IN BONDAGE.

You did not read what I said...God FORBADE sin, somehow you read that as God gave man freewill to sin. If God had given man freewill then He would be responsible for man's sin. Freewillery puts the blame on God.

Choice is not freewill [you have not read what I wrote] it is neither devil or angel who gives you choice but God.
God says this "If you choose obedience it is My sovereign will that you should live" if and but "if you choose disobedience then it is My sovereign will that you shall die"

Which option will you have God's will that you should live? or God's will that you shall die? You do not even have the freewill not to choose.

What Adam had was not freewill, he had LIFE, God created him, he didn't create himself. God didn't ask Adam's permission He went right on ahead and created him. Now having been created love demands that he should be free to choose life or death.

That is what man has. Choice is not freewill.

Oh but He WAS imposing His will upon Adam, He warned he would die and he did die.

God did not preplan or foreordain sin, I am not going to tire of repeating myself, God foreknew sin and what He preplanned was man's redemption.

 

[lesjude]

Now here is where people miss it. This eternal, before the earth was formed, sovereign plan INCLUDED MAN'S FREE WILL CHOICES AND ACTIONS! Example: Joseph's brothers made a free will choice to sell him into slavery, but:
Genesis 50:20
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
Another example: Isaiah 10:5-12
5 “ Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.
6 I will send him against an ungodly nation,
And against the people of My wrath
I will give him charge,
To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 Yet he does not mean so,
Nor does his heart think so;
But it is in his heart to destroy,
And cut off not a few nations.
8 For he says,

‘ Are not my princes altogether kings?
9 Is not Calno like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad?
Is not Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose carved images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 As I have done to Samaria and her idols,
Shall I not do also to Jerusalem and her idols?’”

12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.”
Assyria did what was in their heart by a free will choice. However they were fulfilling God's eternal plan. Predestination.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Now here is where people miss it. This eternal, before the earth was formed, sovereign plan INCLUDED MAN'S FREE WILL CHOICES AND ACTIONS! Example: Joseph's brothers made a free will choice to sell him into slavery, but:
Genesis 50:20
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
Another example: Isaiah 10:5-12
5 “ Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.
6 I will send him against an ungodly nation,
And against the people of My wrath
I will give him charge,
To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 Yet he does not mean so,
Nor does his heart think so;
But it is in his heart to destroy,
And cut off not a few nations.
8 For he says,

‘ Are not my princes altogether kings?
9 Is not Calno like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad?
Is not Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose carved images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 As I have done to Samaria and her idols,
Shall I not do also to Jerusalem and her idols?’”

12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.”
Assyria did what was in their heart by a free will choice. However they were fulfilling God's eternal plan. Predestination.

I see exactly what you mean, but whether you can call it freewill is questionable...for predestiny by very definition includes nature, the nature of things, the nature of man. Those mean brethren were set fair to hate Joseph by their own hearts and by the message Joseph gave them acting upon them. It's just as sure as a magnet repelling it's opposite pole. And that repulsion is no mean force.

But their will was not to sell Joseph [that was God's will] their will was to slay him.

While not losing site of your insightful remarks I would say the breths were acting under compulsion of envy. Were they not responsible for this? verily they were but God in His great mercy overuled for the sake of their salvation and that of the whole then world.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Matthew 7:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)
The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

They make freewill choices not to from their side. From God's side they were not chosen/ drawn by the Father.
John 6:64-66

New King James Version (NKJV)

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
And
John 6:37

New King James Version (NKJV)

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Has God no so preplanned and designed everything in order that men according to their nature reject His way? is not the cross so designed? And we if we are not pulled in by the Holy Ghost will of our nature reject the cross.

I just doesn't believe christians when they say they chose the cross of their own freewill, nobody would.

The thing is God works so gently and graciously that men think themselves to be doing these things but truly it is God willing IN US to do of His good pleasure.

 

[lesjude]

Has God no so preplanned and designed everything in order that men according to their nature reject His way? is not the cross so designed? And we if we are not pulled in by the Holy Ghost will of our nature reject the cross.

I just doesn't believe christians when they say they chose the cross of their own freewill, nobody would.

The thing is God works so gently and graciously that men think themselves to be doing these things but truly it is God willing IN US to do of His good pleasure.

John 6:37,44, 65-66

New King James Version (NKJV)

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

 

[Pneuma]

God did not preplan sin He foreknew it and preplanned our redemption from it.

Not according to Jesus. Jesus said that the Father thought the people would reverence him/Jesus. So if Jesus is correct (and I believe he is) then your understanding of when God planned out our redemption must be in error.

How can God who preplanned our redemption before man was ever created say I thought they would reverence my son?

Bondage to sin before we come to Christ is EXACTLY what Paul teaches in ALL his letters.
Galatians 4

Howbeit then when ye knew not God ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods But NOW after that ye have known God or rather are known of God how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements whereunto ye desire again to BE IN BONDAGE.

Adam was NOT in bondage to sin, he had perfect access to God, Adam however became bound to in sin AFTER his disobedience.

You did not read what I said...God FORBADE sin, somehow you read that as God gave man freewill to sin. If God had given man freewill then He would be responsible for man's sin. Freewillery puts the blame on God.

We agree God forbade sin. Freewill does not make God responsible for mans sins. When the father gave his son the inheritance, and the son went out and squandered that inheritance was his father responsible for what his son did?

Choice is not freewill [you have not read what I wrote] it is neither devil or angel who gives you choice but God.
God says this "If you choose obedience it is My sovereign will that you should live" if and but "if you choose disobedience then it is My sovereign will that you shall die"

Sorry but you are simply adding to what the scriptures say. Nothing in any scripture states it is Gods sovereign will that any should die. They actually proclaim the opposite in that it is NOT Gods will that any should perish.

Which option will you have God's will that you should live? or God's will that you shall die? You do not even have the freewill not to choose.

God does not will that any should die. God created laws like the law of gravity. Now if God says do not jump off that high cliff over there or you will die and you jump of the cliff and die is it Gods sovereign will that you died or was it because you being a son of God where deceived into believing that if you jumped God would not let you dash your foot against a stone.

God created law to keep us safe from harm, He is not responsible if we break those laws and reap the consequences.

What Adam had was not freewill, he had LIFE, God created him, he didn't create himself. God didn't ask Adam's permission He went right on ahead and created him. Now having been created love demands that he should be free to choose life or death.

That is what man has. Choice is not freewill.

And all those who have LIFE have freewill. You simply cannot choose life or death without the freedom to do so.

Oh but He WAS imposing His will upon Adam, He warned he would die and he did die.

Read my above comment concerning the law.

God did not preplan or foreordain sin, I am not going to tire of repeating myself, God foreknew sin and what He preplanned was man's redemption.

And as I said Jesus disagrees with your understanding.

 

[Pneuma]

Has God no so preplanned and designed everything in order that men according to their nature reject His way?

I don't care how you want to word it but that is the same thing as saying God preplanned for man to sin. If God created man to act according to his nature and God is the one who gave man that sinful nature and knew all along man would use that sinful nature to sin then God is the architect of sin and planned everything out that way.

is not the cross so designed? And we if we are not pulled in by the Holy Ghost will of our nature reject the cross.

It is not our nature that rejects the cross it is the nature of the father we follow.
In other words if you reject the cross you are doing the will of your father the devil.

I just doesn't believe christians when they say they chose the cross of their own freewill, nobody would.

So you don't believe Jesus when he said it?

The thing is God works so gently and graciously that men think themselves to be doing these things but truly it is God willing IN US to do of His good pleasure.

I agree it is God working His will in us that we would do His good pleasure, however I reject the idea that it is God doing the willing for us.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Not according to Jesus. Jesus said that the Father thought the people would reverence him/Jesus. So if Jesus is correct (and I believe he is) then your understanding of when God planned out our redemption must be in error.
Totty replies, well your debate seems to be with God here not me, that who He foreknew He predestined is His word, I understand what is being said in the parable.

Adam was NOT in bondage to sin, he had perfect access to God, Adam however became bound to in sin AFTER his disobedience.

Totty replies.
Yes we are speaking about after Adam's disobedience, before he was in obedience to God. Then was he in perfect freedom, everything he was created to be.




We agree God forbade sin. Freewill does not make God responsible for mans sins. When the father gave his son the inheritance, and the son went out and squandered that inheritance was his father responsible for what his son did?
Totty replies
The point is if God forbade sin then Adam had no freewill to sin, he could choose to rebel and he did so, but that brought upon him God's will concerning the soul that sinneth "it shall die"



Sorry but you are simply adding to what the scriptures say. Nothing in any scripture states it is Gods sovereign will that any should die. They actually proclaim the opposite in that it is NOT Gods will that any should perish.
Totty replies
Of COURSE it was God who said "you will surely die" that is His will concerning the soul that sinneth, it still is His will. Nobody else has power over life and death. His first will was that man should live, that is still His will.



God does not will that any should die. God created laws like the law of gravity. Now if God says do not jump off that high cliff over there or you will die and you jump of the cliff and die is it Gods sovereign will that you died or was it because you being a son of God where deceived into believing that if you jumped God would not let you dash your foot against a stone.
Totty replies
Yes this is exactly so, the devil must deceive us first into believing that God's word will not come to pass. This is what he did. he deceived man into believing he had freewill to jump off the cliff and not die.

God created law to keep us safe from harm, He is not responsible if we break those laws and reap the consequences.
Totty replies Agreed


And all those who have LIFE have freewill. You simply cannot choose life or death without the freedom to do so.
Totty replies
Choice is not freewill, you can only choose between the options that God places before you, whatever you choose will be God's will concerning that choice, either to live according to God's will or to die according to God's will,

But man has already chosen



read my above comment concerning the law.



And as I said Jesus disagrees with your understanding.

Totty replies, oh right then

 

[Pneuma]

Totty replies, well your debate seems to be with God here not me, that who He foreknew He predestined is His word, I understand what is being said in the parable.

Well if you understand what Jesus said in the parable explain how it is that God thought they would reverence Jesus if God foreknew before He ever created man they would not.

Totty replies.
Yes we are speaking about after Adam's disobedience, before he was in obedience to God. Then was he in perfect freedom, everything he was created to be.

So then how did Adam sin?

Totty replies
The point is if God forbade sin then Adam had no freewill to sin, he could choose to rebel and he did so, but that brought upon him God's will concerning the soul that sinneth "it shall die"

It is not God will that any should perish. Saying it is Gods will that people perish is to totally ignore that scripture.
I will repeat this (with a small change) because it is obvious you did not understand the point

God does not will that any should die. God created laws like the law of gravity. Now if God says do not jump off that high cliff over there or you will die and you jump of the cliff and die is it Gods sovereign will that you died or was it because God knew that because of the law of gravity that you would die?

Totty replies
Of COURSE it was God who said "you will surely die" that is His will concerning the soul that sinneth, it still is His will. Nobody else has power over life and death. His first will was that man should live, that is still His will.

God does NOT have TWO wills. Again read my point about the laws above.

Totty replies
Yes this is exactly so, the devil must deceive us first into believing that God's word will not come to pass. This is what he did. he deceived man into believing he had freewill to jump off the cliff and not die.



Totty replies
Choice is not freewill, you can only choose between the options that God places before you, whatever you choose will be God's will concerning that choice, either to live according to God's will or to die according to God's will,

But man has already chosen

Man cannot make a choice unless his will is free to do so. And it is NOT Gods will that any should perish so we should know that if one dies it is not according to Gods sovereign will. Your belief makes God schizophrenic, it is my will that you live, no thats not right, it is my will that you die, oh wait a minute I really don't know what my will is for people.


And just in case you are unaware of it freewill is in the bible.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Well if you understand what Jesus said in the parable explain how it is that God thought they would reverence Jesus if God foreknew before He ever created man they would not.
Totty replies
Well in the parable God is set in the likeness of the vineyard owner, but God is not a vineyard owner in other words you can't push the simile further than it will go. God is appealing to what all men must see as a perfectly reasonable case "surely they will honour his son"








So then how did Adam sin?
My short answer is that he was deceived into believing that he had liberty [freewill] to disobey God and not incur God's will concerning sin "you will surely die"


It is not God will that any should perish. Saying it is Gods will that people perish is to totally ignore that scripture.
I will repeat this (with a small change) because it is obvious you did not understand the point
Totty replies
It is God's will that "the soul that sinneth it shall die" I didn't make it up, that is throughout scripture. It is God's perfect will that man would be righteous and live.

God does not will that any should die. God created laws like the law of gravity. Now if God says do not jump off that high cliff over there or you will die and you jump of the cliff and die is it Gods sovereign will that you died or was it because God knew that because of the law of gravity that you would die?
This is a repeat, Satan deceived the man into believing he could jump off the cliff and not die.

God does NOT have TWO wills. Again read my point about the laws above.
Yes but he DOES have two wills concerning man, one regarding the righteous and one regarding the sinner. His first will for man was that he should be righteous.




Man cannot make a choice unless his will is free to do so. And it is NOT Gods will that any should perish so we should know that if one dies it is not according to Gods sovereign will. Your belief makes God schizophrenic, it is my will that you live, no thats not right, it is my will that you die, oh wait a minute I really don't know what my will is for people.
Yes but we see that not everyone is given that choice, some "He hath blinded their eyes and stopped their ears lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and turn to Me and I should heal them"

I know that is a hard saying but it is not my saying, it is for me [who DOES believe my Lord is merciful] to cry to Him for understanding.

See it is very foolish that people read a GREAT many scriptures like that and throw up their hands and say "I will not have it so" God is full of pity and patience, but He must wait for them to finish their tantrum before He can teach them.

The answer is that God foreknew He did not foreplan man's sin but He foreknew. It is redemption that is foreplanned or predestined. You have to understand what Adam is, he is PROTOTYPE for the Man who would come, in Adam was seed of both the righteous and the wicked, YOU were seed in Adam you were righteous even then even though you fell when Adam fell. It was not your redemption God foreknew but YOU...who He foreknew He also predestined and elected.

You have to know that the righteous are righteous because God makes them so, but the wicked are VERY wicked made so by their rebellion. YOU do not see the inner man, of the righteous or the wicked, God sees and knows it.

And just in case you are unaware of it freewill is in the bible.

Not a scrap, only God has it, we have choice...but I say to you that the choice has been made and it wasn't good.

Totty has to sleep...will catch up again, good night and God bless.

 

[Pneuma]

Totty replies
Well in the parable God is set in the likeness of the vineyard owner, but God is not a vineyard owner in other words you can't push the simile further than it will go. God is appealing to what all men must see as a perfectly reasonable case "surely they will honour his son"

A parable is something set side by side with the truth in order to show forth the truth. And in the parable Jesus said that God sent forth his servants and the people killed some and beat some. Did this really happen? Yes it did. Then God said I will send my son him they will reverence. Did God send forth His son? Yes He did. Did the people reverence His son? No they did not.

All the other things foretold in that Parable really happened so what right does anyone have to say that when God said they will reverence my son is nothing but a figure of speech.

Did God send forth His servant to be beaten and killed for sport? He must have if He foreknew that all those things would happen to them because all along He was planning to send forth His son.

My short answer is that he was deceived into believing that he had liberty [freewill] to disobey God and not incur God's will concerning sin "you will surely die"

Freewill is NOT sin, the corruption of our freewill by Satan is the cause of sin.

Is the father in the prodigal son story responsible for all the sins the son committed because the father gave the son his inheritance? Why do you refuse to answer this question?

Totty replies
It is God's will that "the soul that sinneth it shall die" I didn't make it up, that is throughout scripture. It is God's perfect will that man would be righteous and live.

Yes you are making it up. NO scripture says it is Gods will that people die, you can only come to that conclusion by inference, which is not a good why to understand the scriptures.

However scripture does say it is Gods will that none should perish, do you not believe that scripture?

This is a repeat, Satan deceived the man into believing he could jump off the cliff and not die.

Your still missing the point Totty. Let me try it this way.
Your standing on a cliff and you are warned not to jump off the cliff or you will die, but you decide to jump off the cliff anyway and you end up dead.

Now was it Gods will that you died or did you die because the law of gravity pulled you to your death?

Yes but he DOES have two wills concerning man, one regarding the righteous and one regarding the sinner. His first will for man was that he should be righteous.

Nonsense, show me anywhere in scripture that states God has two wills?

Yes but we see that not everyone is given that choice, some "He hath blinded their eyes and stopped their ears lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and turn to Me and I should heal them"


I know that is a hard saying but it is not my saying, it is for me [who DOES believe my Lord is merciful] to cry to Him for understanding.

God is not a respecter of people. These people refused to come to the light and because of this their eyes were blinded.

See it is very foolish that people read a GREAT many scriptures like that and throw up their hands and say "I will not have it so" God is full of pity and patience, but He must wait for them to finish their tantrum before He can teach them.

The answer is that God foreknew He did not foreplan man's sin but He foreknew. It is redemption that is foreplanned or predestined. You have to understand what Adam is, he is PROTOTYPE for the Man who would come, in Adam was seed of both the righteous and the wicked, YOU were seed in Adam you were righteous even then even though you fell when Adam fell. It was not your redemption God foreknew but YOU...who He foreknew He also predestined and elected.

You have to know that the righteous are righteous because God makes them so, but the wicked are VERY wicked made so by their rebellion. YOU do not see the inner man, of the righteous or the wicked, God sees and knows it.

God planted good seed, the tares are of the devil. And we are not in sin because of some guy named Adam who lived 6000 years ago, we are in sin because we are Adam.

Not a scrap, only God has it, we have choice...but I say to you that the choice has been made and it wasn't good.

Look it up it is one word freewill, not two words free will and you will find it.

Totty has to sleep...will catch up again, good night and God bless

Night totty and God bless you also.