Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

[Right Divider]

He left the apostles, and it shattered them.

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.

They had not anticipated it.

Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

But then Pentecost came, and the Holy Spirit descended.

Please quote the scripture where the Holy Spirit "descended" (hint: it does not say that).

That is the pattern: the world remains empty of the divine unless God chooses to enter it.

You keep making this vague undefined statement. Define your terms.

We are meant to relinquish the notion that we are naturally immersed in the divine presence, for that is a pagan intuition, not a Christian one.

Again, this sounds like new age jargon and not biblical Christianity.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.


Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

I think he was referring to Christ's crucifixion here, not ascension. I was going to respond the same way you did, but then I realized that was a possibility.

He's not being very clear. Just vague claims.

 

[Right Divider]

I think he was referring to Christ's crucifixion here, not ascension. I was going to respond the same way you did, but then I realized that was a possibility.

He's not being very clear. Just vague claims.

If that is the case, then he is being very scatterbrained.

They (the 11) were "shattered" for a whole three days...

 

[MWinther]

No it doesn't. This is like saying we shouldn't convince flat-earthers that the earth is round, because they might backslide into flat-earthyness one day.

It was the Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar who introduced the idea that we are actors on the stage of God's drama. The concept has gained little traction among theologians. Its structure is essentially pagan. A pagan impulse has always been present within Christianity, especially within Catholicism.

 

[MWinther]

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.


Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

Please quote the scripture where the Holy Spirit "descended" (hint: it does not say that).

You keep making this vague undefined statement. Define your terms.

Again, this sounds like new age jargon and not biblical Christianity.

The apostles were not serene, confident mystics awaiting resurrection. They were shattered human beings, and the New Testament is remarkably honest about it. Pentecost, in this light, is a reconstitution of a broken community. Taken together, the evidence is overwhelming:

Peter says, "I am going fishing," and the others follow (John 21:3). This is resignation, a return to the life they had before Jesus called them. Mary Magdalene weeps at the tomb (John 20:11–13). Her grief is raw and unfiltered. There is no sense of triumph or expectation, only loss. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples confess: "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:17–21). Their hope is explicitly described as lost. They are bewildered, grieving, and disoriented.

Furthermore, after the crucifixion, the disciples are described as hiding in a locked room "for fear of the Jews" (John 20:19). This is not calm expectation of resurrection. It is trauma. At the moment of Jesus's arrest, "they all forsook him and fled" (Mark 14:50). This is not the behaviour of men who feel spiritually secure or prepared. It is panic. Peter's denial shows psychological collapse. He denies Jesus three times, then breaks down in tears (Luke 22:54–62). This is a classic sign of someone whose world has fallen apart.

The Holy Spirit certainly descended:

“When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:1–4)

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Peter says, "I am going fishing," and the others follow (John 21:3). This is resignation, a return to the life they had before Jesus called them. Mary Magdalene weeps at the tomb (John 20:11–13). Her grief is raw and unfiltered. There is no sense of triumph or expectation, only loss. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples confess: "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:17–21). Their hope is explicitly described as lost. They are bewildered, grieving, and disoriented.

Furthermore, after the crucifixion, the disciples are described as hiding in a locked room "for fear of the Jews" (John 20:19). This is not calm expectation of resurrection. It is trauma. At the moment of Jesus's arrest, "they all forsook him and fled" (Mark 14:50). This is not the behaviour of men who feel spiritually secure or prepared. It is panic. Peter's denial shows psychological collapse. He denies Jesus three times, then breaks down in tears (Luke 22:54–62). This is a classic sign of someone whose world has fallen apart.

I think you are reading too much into this. The death and suffering of a loved one is one of the most heartbreaking and distressful things any of us will ever experience. Mary, Peter and the apostles were behaving accordingly. Would you have expected them to have a party while Jesus was being crucified? Even Jesus was sad when Lazarus died.

 

[Right Divider]

The apostles were not serene, confident mystics awaiting resurrection.

They were never serene, confident mystics of any kind, before or after the death, burial and resurrection.

They were shattered human beings, and the New Testament is remarkably honest about it.

The fact that Jesus had to die was hidden from them. What does that have to do with anything?

Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. ​

​

When Jesus told Peter about it, Peter tried to stop Him.

​

Matt 16:21-23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(16:21) ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (16:22) Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. (16:23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.​

Pentecost, in this light, is a reconstitution of a broken community. Taken together, the evidence is overwhelming:

Overwhelming of WHAT? Their grief?

That they were saddened by the death of Jesus... no kidding... call the news.

This is a point that we Pauline Mid-Acts dispensationalists often make. They, even at and after Pentecost, they were NOT preaching the cross as GOOD NEWS. That began with PAUL! Peter was INDICTING the nation of Israel for MURDERING their Messiah.

Acts 2:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ​

That is NOT Peter declaring GOOD NEWS to the people of Israel (the a few proselytes).

Peter says, "I am going fishing," and the others follow (John 21:3).

Peter was a fisherman. What is the POINT? That God "departed from the world" when Jesus died? That did not happen.

This is resignation, a return to the life they had before Jesus called them. Mary Magdalene weeps at the tomb (John 20:11–13). Her grief is raw and unfiltered. There is no sense of triumph or expectation, only loss. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples confess: "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:17–21). Their hope is explicitly described as lost. They are bewildered, grieving, and disoriented.

Again, what is you POINT? Of course they were sad and dejected. Their Messiah was dead and they did not know about the reason why.

John 20:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(20:9) For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.​

The Holy Spirit certainly descended:

“When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:1–4)

Yes, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit... not in exactly the same that we today, in the body of Christ do.

None of what you have shown means that "the divine was absent from the world" (whatever that's supposed to mean) for three days.

 

[MWinther]

They were never serene, confident mystics of any kind, before or after the death, burial and resurrection.

The fact that Jesus had to die was hidden from them. What does that have to do with anything?

Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. ​

​

When Jesus told Peter about it, Peter tried to stop Him.

​

Matt 16:21-23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(16:21) ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (16:22) Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. (16:23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.​

Overwhelming of WHAT? Their grief?

That they were saddened by the death of Jesus... no kidding... call the news.

This is a point that we Pauline Mid-Acts dispensationalists often make. They, even at and after Pentecost, they were NOT preaching the cross as GOOD NEWS. That began with PAUL! Peter was INDICTING the nation of Israel for MURDERING their Messiah.

Acts 2:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ​

That is NOT Peter declaring GOOD NEWS to the people of Israel (the a few proselytes).

Peter was a fisherman. What is the POINT? That God "departed from the world" when Jesus died? That did not happen.

Again, what is you POINT? Of course they were sad and dejected. Their Messiah was dead and they did not know about the reason why.

John 20:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(20:9) For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.​

Yes, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit... not in exactly the same that we today, in the body of Christ do.

None of what you have shown means that "the divine was absent from the world" (whatever that's supposed to mean) for three days.

The divine is now absent from the world. Isn't that simply a fact? We have become thoroughly secularized. Is this the hidden problem for Christians, that the world is disenchanted? Stop pretending it isn't.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The divine is now absent from the world. Isn't that simply a fact? We have become thoroughly secularized. Is this the hidden problem for Christians, that the world is disenchanted? Stop pretending it isn't.

False.

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:19 - New King James Version

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

www.biblegateway.com

The world being "thoroughly secularized" is due to how evil man is, not because God is absent.

 

[MWinther]

False.

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:19 - New King James Version

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

www.biblegateway.com

The world being "thoroughly secularized" is due to how evil man is, not because God is absent.

If God were present in the world in the same way creatures are present then nothing else could truly exist in its own right. A world saturated by divine immediacy would be swallowed by it. Creaturely independence would collapse. Every causal chain, every intention, every movement would be divine by default.

For anything finite to exist as finite, God must not occupy the same ontological "space." God's transcendence is the very condition for creatures' independence.

To allow creatures to be themselves, God must withdraw from the plane of immanent causality. This is not atheism. It is the metaphysical prerequisite for creation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If God were present in the world in the same way creatures are present then nothing else could truly exist in its own right. A world saturated by divine immediacy would be swallowed by it. Creaturely independence would collapse. Every causal chain, every intention, every movement would be divine by default.

For anything finite to exist as finite, God must not occupy the same ontological "space." God's transcendence is the very condition for creatures' independence.

To allow creatures to be themselves, God must withdraw from the plane of immanent causality. This is not atheism. It is the metaphysical prerequisite for creation.

This is pure nonsense.

God lived in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. Adam still sinned of his own free will.

 

[Right Divider]

The divine is now absent from the world.

Define what that means and when it happened.

Nothing vague, give details!

 

[Nick M]

He's not being very clear. Just vague claims.

With cosmic pixie dust mixed in.