Question Concerning The Plot

[docrob57]

I recently finished listening to the audio version of The Plot (thanks to the great generosity of a TOLer who I will not name). It was fascinating, and the grace/law distinction made seems to have a lot of merit and certainly clears up a lot of "questionable passages."

However, I still have problems with Mr. Enyart's conclusions concerning God's ability to know the future. In the course of the discussion, Mr. Enyart references several instances of prophecies that did not "come true." For example, Jonah told the Ninevites that they would be destroyed in 40 days. They repented, however, and were not destroyed.

Mr. Enyart admits that in the instances of prophecies not coming true, at least implicitly, the prophecy is conditional. That is, God says he will do A if X happens, but not if Y happens. The "but not if Y happens" is at times not directly stated, as in the case of Jonah. However, the only way such a prophesy could not come true is if either the subject of the prophecy does A and X does not happen or does not do A and X happens.

Are there any examples of this occuring in the Bible? If not, then the prophecies can not be said to have not come true, and the examples given say nothing of God's ability to know the future.

 

[Crow]

docrob, I have a question and not an answer--I've just gotten off from and exciting night shift in a dementia unit and I'm still hearing the echos of the howls and screeches.

To me the that God would even make a conditional promise is evidence of free will and that He does not have exhaustive foreknowledge. If He already knew what action He was going to take, why would He promise based on man's choice? Wouldn't it be deceitful on God's part make a promise to mankind based on man's action when in fact mankind had no choice in his actions because they had been predetermined by God?

 

[docrob57]

docrob, I have a question and not an answer--I've just gotten off from and exciting night shift in a dementia unit and I'm still hearing the echos of the howls and screeches.

To me the that God would even make a conditional promise is evidence of free will and that He does not have exhaustive foreknowledge. If He already knew what action He was going to take, why would He promise based on man's choice? Wouldn't it be deceitful on God's part make a promise to mankind based on man's action when in fact mankind had no choice in his actions because they had been predetermined by God?

Well first off, I am not equating foreknowledge with predestination, as I don't think this is necessary. But putting that aside for a minute. With our imperfect knowledge, don't we as parents say "put that down or I will spank you?" We "know" imperfectly that the child will put the object down, however, we make the threat (the "prophesy") to bring about the desired behavior.

Of course. our foreknowledge is not perfect, but we are not God.

 

[Crow]

Well first off, I am not equating foreknowledge with predestination, as I don't think this is necessary. But putting that aside for a minute. With our imperfect knowledge, don't we as parents say "put that down or I will spank you?" We "know" imperfectly that the child will put the object down, however, we make the threat (the "prophesy") to bring about the desired behavior.

Of course. our foreknowledge is not perfect, but we are not God.

So are you saying that God knows what we will do, but deceives us into thinking that there is a choice? Why would God attemt to influence our behavior if He already knows what it's going to be?

 

[docrob57]

So are you saying that God knows what we will do, but deceives us into thinking that there is a choice? Why would God attemt to influence our behavior if He already knows what it's going to be?

No, I think that God tries to guide us on the right path. We don't have to go there, but for reasons I stated in that last behemoth thread I started on foreknowledge, God will know how we will respond.

 

[godrulz]

No, I think that God tries to guide us on the right path. We don't have to go there, but for reasons I stated in that last behemoth thread I started on foreknowledge, God will know how we will respond.

There is some truth to this based on God's perfect past and present knowledge. It is another story to extrapolate that God exhaustively foreknows every moral and mundane choice from eternity past.

There are many conditional prophecies (some even seem unconditional, but in fact are conditional). God is responsive. The only way to exhaustively know the future as a certainty is to predetermine it. The biblical evidence is that some of the future is settled by God's ability to bring certain things to pass that He purposes, while some of the future is unsettled and known only as possible vs actual before it happens.

 

[docrob57]

As in discussions past that we have had, the question seems to come down to whether or not foreknowledge constitutes control. I contend that it does not, as long as the "knower" has complete, perfect knowledge of the reasons for free will choices.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

As in discussions past that we have had, the question seems to come down to whether or not foreknowledge constitutes control. I contend that it does not, as long as the "knower" has complete, perfect knowledge of the reasons for free will choices.

doc, I think you need to ask yourself . . . . if God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge why and how could He personally interact with that knowledge?

 

[docrob57]

doc, I think you need to ask yourself . . . . if God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge why and how could He personally interact with that knowledge?

The only reason that this is a problem is if you assume that foreknowledge and control are equivalent. I know that you believe that you and others have demonstrated this assumption to be true, but I must respectfully disagree.

Of course God interacts with us and tries to guide us. I believe he does this with full knowledge of the result of the interaction, but that it is still our free will that determines the response.

 

[docrob57]

doc, I think you need to ask yourself . . . . if God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge why and how could He personally interact with that knowledge?

Taking it even more fundamentally, can you demonstrate to me that Jonah's prophecy was false, given the parameters established in my first post, or tell me where I am wrong in the first post.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Of course God interacts with us and tries to guide us. I believe he does this with full knowledge of the result of the interaction, but that it is still our free will that determines the response.

Does God's perfect foreknowledge include His interaction with us and the result of His interaction, or is His interaction motivated by what He "sees" coming down the pike?

 

[docrob57]

Does God's perfect foreknowledge include His interaction with us and the result of His interaction, or is His interaction motivated by what He "sees" coming down the pike?

I would think the former.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Taking it even more fundamentally, can you demonstrate to me that Jonah's prophecy was false, given the parameters established in my first post, or tell me where I am wrong in the first post.

If God had perfect foreknowledge that Nineveh would NOT be destroyed in 40 days was the following statement true or false?

“Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I would think the former.

Really???

As one that promotes perfect foreknowledge how can you possibly say that?

 

[docrob57]

If God had perfect foreknowledge that Nineveh would NOT be destroyed in 40 days was the following statement true or false?

“Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

I know, but in the tape Bob Enyart states that the reverse of this, if Nineveh repents, is implied.

 

[docrob57]

Really???

As one that promotes perfect foreknowledge how can you possibly say that?

Again, it is because we are coming at the problem from different angles. Assume God knows that I am about to take an action that will screw up the rest of my life. I have gotten in this position of my own free will (it has happened many times in fact). God decides to intervene to keep me from taking this action. He knows me, He knows what will work, and He does it and it works. If you want to say that I do not have free will to respond to God's intervention, I suppose you could look at it that way. I choose to say that God knows what will work, theoretically I could keep on my path but I don't because God's action is effective.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I know, but in the tape Bob Enyart states that the reverse of this, if Nineveh repents, is implied.

That's true!

But that doesn't help your dilemma.

Keep in mind you think that God already knows (PERFECTLY) the outcome.

So, if that is true . . . does He, or does He not know beforehand that Nineveh will be overthrown?

 

[docrob57]

That's true!

But that doesn't help your dilemma.

Keep in mind you think that God already knows (PERFECTLY) the outcome.

So, if that is true . . . does He, or does He not know beforehand that Nineveh will be overthrown?

He knows before hand that Nineveh will repent and that it will not be destroyed if He voices the warning through Jonah..

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Again, it is because we are coming at the problem from different angles. Assume God knows that I am about to take an action that will screw up the rest of my life. I have gotten in this position of my own free will (it has happened many times in fact). God decides to intervene to keep me from taking this action. He knows me, He knows what will work, and He does it and it works. If you want to say that I do not have free will to respond to God's intervention, I suppose you could look at it that way. I choose to say that God knows what will work, theoretically I could keep on my path but I don't because God's action is effective.

Excellent!

You paint a picture of an open future.

Open to us - we are able to be effected by God.
Open to God - God is able to effect what He predicts is going to happen.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

He knows before hand that Nineveh will repent and that it will not be destroyed if He voices the warning through Jonah..

:bang:

Does He now the ACTUAL outcome beforehand or not?