Theology Club: Repent and be Baptized...for the Remission of Sins

[Jerry Shugart]

Because David was a prophet, and his words agreed with Paul's point.

Yes, his words agreed with Paul's point because David himself was saved apart from works:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:5-7).​

 

[glorydaz]

Because David was a prophet, and his words agreed with Paul's point.

In the same way that Isaiah was a prophet and spoke of making straight the highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3 Or here Isaiah 61:10. Or Job here. Job 19:25

 

[Danoh]

Because David was a prophet, and his words agreed with Paul's point.

Forgive me for how this might come across given our difference in understanding of some things, STP...please take it in the spirit it is meant - in the spirit of sharing and or exploring together differences in our understanding.

From your understanding; how do you see this that you have just asserted - how would an OT Prophet's words agree with the Apostle Paul's?

Yours in Him,

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Forgive me for how this might come across given our difference in understanding of some things, STP...please take it in the spirit it is meant - in the spirit of sharing and or exploring together differences in our understanding.

From your understanding; how do you see this that you have just asserted - how would an OT Prophet's words agree with the Apostle Paul's?

Yours in Him,

Having sins covered is something that applies to all dispensations. It's a matter of different timing, and how one qualifies to get it.

Paul used the prophets many times, led by the Spirit, in ways that may seem out of their context to us.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

In the same way that Isaiah was a prophet and spoke of making straight the highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3 Or here Isaiah 61:10. Or Job here. Job 19:25

Yes, just because the prophet David agreed that it is wonderful to have sins forgiven , that does not mean that David enjoyed the same grace in his lifetime as we do in this dispensation...or that he was already saved, by grace through the faith of Christ, like we are.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, just because the prophet David agreed that it is wonderful to have sins forgiven , that does not mean that David enjoyed the same grace in his lifetime as we do in this dispensation...or that he was already saved, by grace through the faith of Christ, like we are.

And, the Comforter had not yet come. That seems a pretty big thing to me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, just because the prophet David agreed that it is wonderful to have sins forgiven , that does not mean that David enjoyed the same grace in his lifetime as we do in this dispensation...or that he was already saved, by grace through the faith of Christ, like we are.

Do you deny that Abraham enjoyed the same kind of grace which we do now?:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

Do you deny that Peter, who lived under the law, was saved by grace just as we are?:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (Acts 15:11).​

 

[way 2 go]

Do you deny that Abraham enjoyed the same kind of grace which we do now?:

yes

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

 

[way 2 go]

And, the Comforter had not yet come. That seems a pretty big thing to me.

:thumb:

David was one of the few that had the holy spirit in the OT
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.

but he saw what happend to Saul
1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

yes

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

So according to you Abraham was saved by grace but at the same time he had to do works to be saved. But that idea is contradicted by what Paul wrote about Abraham here:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And, the Comforter had not yet come. That seems a pretty big thing to me.

At the time when the Lord Jesus said these words the Comforter had not yet come:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The Greek words translated "speak," "they are," and "they are" are all in the "present" tense so the Lord's words were bringing life to all who believed Him, and that was before the Comforter had come.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because David was a prophet, and his words agreed with Paul's point.

Yes, his words agreed with Paul's point because David himself was saved apart from works:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:5-7).​

 

[glorydaz]

At the time when the Lord Jesus said these words the Comforter had not yet come:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The Greek words translated "speak," "they are," and "they are" are all in the "present" tense so the Lord's words were bringing life to all who believed Him, and that was before the Comforter had come.

The COMFORTER had not yet come. That's what I'm talking about. The indwelling Spirit that abides with us forever.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The COMFORTER had not yet come. That's what I'm talking about. The indwelling Spirit that abides with us forever.

Do you admit that the words of the Lord Jesus gave spiritual life to people before the Comforter had come?

 

[way 2 go]

So according to you Abraham was saved by grace but at the same time he had to do works to be saved. But that idea is contradicted by what Paul wrote about Abraham here:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

Paul
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

agrees with this covenant which was by faith
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

and

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

agrees with this covenant which has works
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

agrees with this covenant which was by faith
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

and

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

agrees with this covenant which has works
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

So are you saying that Abraham was justified before God apart from works but at the same time he couldn't be justified before God unless he did works?

Is that your argument?

 

[Bright Raven]

Jerry, now who that believes in MAD, believes that water baptism is necessary fro salvation?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, now who that believes in MAD, believes that water baptism is necessary fro salvation?

Those from the Neo-MAD camp teach that the rite of water baptism mentioned at Acts 2:38 was necessary for salvation for the Jews who lived under the law.

I have always said that submitting to the rite of water baptism saved no one.

What do you think?

 

[Bright Raven]

Those from the Neo-MAD camp teach that the rite of water baptism mentioned at Acts 2:38 was necessary for salvation for the Jews who lived under the law.

I have always said that submitting to the rite of water baptism saved no one.

What do you think?

water baptism is not necessary for anything.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

water baptism is not necessary for anything.

My question to you is if submitting to the rite of water baptism at Acts 2:38 was necessary for salvation?