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[Ps82]

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@LogicStandsBeforeGod says:



Jesus did not raise another man from the dead until after He had been given authority to do so.

He did so on His own authority.

The Apostles, for comparison, did so on HIS authority.



It's only nonsensical if He wasn't God to begin with. He became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.



It's not nonsensical.

It's not a sham.



No.

I agree with 1.
I disagree with 2.
Regarding 3.: Yes, Jesus raised a man from the dead. And then He raised Himself after being in the grave for three days and three nights.
I agree that God is not the author of confusion. So either I'm not being clear enough, or you're not understanding what I'm saying.
I disagree with 5. God tells us He sent His only begotten Son to die, and then He rose from the dead on the third day. The evidence supports that claim. The evidence in the Bible.

First, I get my evidence from the Bible which has been substantiated by the truth that God has given me personal reasons for believing he is real, alive, knows what is going on in my life and cares. I cannot deny that scripture is real for it is a faith thing. I co not doubt there is a God who is capable of knowing all things. Surely a God who inspired prophets to write scripture in the first place would be capable of protecting truth no matter the language translation - unless the Devil has inspired lies to deceive. Christians must question things and get help from the living God the Spirit in us.

I can think of three huge topics right off the top of my head which are important to understanding what Jesus, as the Son of God / son of man accomplished.
Topics:
1. What precisely is death?
2. Did God The Spirit [The WORD] die when Jesus as a mortal human [son of man] died upon the cross?
3. Where exactly did Jesus go while his body lay in the tomb for three days and what did he do?

 

[JudgeRightly]

First, I get my evidence from the Bible which has been substantiated by the truth that God has given me personal reasons for believing he is real, alive, knows what is going on in my life and cares. I cannot deny that scripture is real for it is a faith thing. I co not doubt there is a God who is capable of knowing all things. Surely a God who inspired prophets to write scripture in the first place would be capable of protecting truth no matter the language translation - unless the Devil has inspired lies to deceive. Christians must question things and get help from the living God the Spirit in us.

I can think of three huge topics right off the top of my head which are important to understanding what Jesus, as the Son of God / son of man accomplished.
Topics:

1. What precisely is death?

Answer: Separation. Physical death is the separation of body from soul. Spiritual death is the separation of creation from Creator.

2. Did God The Spirit [The WORD] die when Jesus as a mortal human [son of man] died upon the cross?

Answer: God the Son is the One who died on the cross. The Holy Spirit did not die. The Father did not die.

3. Where exactly did Jesus go while his body lay in the tomb for three days and what did he do?

Answer: He preached in Paradise, to the righteous undead, then led captivity captive, holding the keys to death when He ascended.

 

[Ps82]

Ooops ... hit a wrong key and message was messed up.

 

[Ps82]

Answer: Separation. Physical death is the separation of body from soul. Spiritual death is the separation of creation from Creator.



Answer: God the Son is the One who died on the cross. The Holy Spirit did not die. The Father did not die.



Answer: He preached in Paradise, to the righteous undead, then led captivity captive, holding the keys to death when He ascended.

Hello JudgeRightly, Thank you for your response.

1. Death: I agree with your statement. but will add: Death of the body and the spirit do not happen instantaneously. There are stages.

a.) The first death for mankind is a physical death, but the spiritual death comes later.

b.) The spirits of the saved and unsaved humans go to separate places and live either in bliss or torment.

c.) Yet there is a second death for humanity. Now, I'm curious if you and I will agree on this part. I happen to ponder this possibility: The second death, the Lake of Fire, was prepared for angels not humanity... For angels the second death means an eternal suffering for they were created to be eternal beings. BUT, humanity was not created as eternal beings. Their souls were established but given a body formed of the elements of their environment. For them I think the death you describe was always a potential; yet, for some reason God choose to give them a second chance - salvation.

d.) So, what entails the second death for humanity who presently lives either in paradise or hell? I ponder that it is the point where the life of their identity returns to from where it came. It came for out of God as a gift and goes back into the essence of God from where it came. The death of man's body and soul does not rob God of anything ... He is eternal and all in all. Always whole whether he has allocated of his essence in order to create things and beings or whether he takes it all back. The Lake of Fire is the final and total separation from God for lost souls as having been created individuals.


Interesting though how Jesus understood something which would be a mystery to us. "He said let the dead bury their dead." I think he understood that those particular family members were destined to some day experience exactly what you described above - Physical death is the separation of body from soul. Spiritual death is the separation of creation from Creator.]

2.) Regarding your statement above: God the Son is the One who died on the cross. The Holy Spirit did not die. The Father did not die. I agree with this caveat - Jesus died the physical death. Jesus was God spiritually and was the LORD in appearance of flesh. God experienced the pain and suffering of physical death through the body of Jesus ...

3.) ... but as the incarnate Jesus, our God still existed as the promised Savior and as you stated - went elsewhere to preach to others after his physical death.

The entity we know as the individual called The WORD of God who was God, the Promised ONE, the LIGHT of the World, Emmanuel, the Savior will not experience the Second Death of eternal [total never ending] separation from God as an individual.

Praise our wise and merciful Creator for giving mankind our way for salvation. Who is MAN that thou art mindful of him? HE is God's perfect creation for bringing forth a righteous family unto HIM. Amen

 

[Nick M]

A person on youtube gave a presentation on logic and reason explaining the concept of Logos. Then he argued against it in the comments. Let me know when you figure people out. And for fun since it came up in another thread where I said I used google to translate I found this one today.

Koine Greek » English - Greek translator | Glosbe Translate

Translate Koine Greek from English to Greek using Glosbe automatic translator that uses newest achievements in neural networks.

translate.glosbe.com

I went straight for "logos", "logic and reason", and "word".

And Logos does not mean word or words or vocabulary. It is wrong, just like saying Paul is the chief or worst, when he said he is the first. I hate to say it, but many translations are wrong about important things. I'm glad I saved all of Bob Hill's writings from his old website.

 

[Clete]

A person on youtube gave a presentation on logic and reason explaining the concept of Logos. Then he argued against it in the comments. Let me know when you figure people out. And for fun since it came up in another thread where I said I used google to translate I found this one today.

Koine Greek » English - Greek translator | Glosbe Translate

Translate Koine Greek from English to Greek using Glosbe automatic translator that uses newest achievements in neural networks.

translate.glosbe.com

I went straight for "logos", "logic and reason", and "word".

And Logos does not mean word or words or vocabulary. It is wrong, just like saying Paul is the chief or worst, when he said he is the first. I hate to say it, but many translations are wrong about important things. I'm glad I saved all of Bob Hill's writings from his old website.

I'd love to get a copy of those writings!

 

[Ps82]

Where I come from when I consider God and the WORD.
First, God is just omni-everything but I will focus on the fact that scripture says God is LIFE; therefore, I conclude that everything God is - all his attributes, power, character, intellect and etc. are ALIVE.

When I consider him in totality there is not one bit of his essence that is more alive than any other. His power lives, his wisdom lives, his strength lives, his voice lives ... but I do think he can allocate measures of his essence to created things ... created things never equal God nor does God loose any of himself as he shares for all is made by him, for him, in him, and consist of him.

Now, considering the VOICE of God which came walking in the Garden to visit Adam and Woman: I believe he was the living voice of God.

What is a voice? It is an audible sound made when intellect produces it; so, regarding the living voice of God, it is coherent audible living speech. Another way to talk about the voice from God is to say - The WORD came unto beings having the ability to hear it. Such came unto Adam and the prophets of old.

John in the Book of John 1 explained pretty well how that worked. The WORD was with God and simultaneously was God's audible voice. Jesus, being God and the voice of God, once said something like this: I could make these rocks cry out and worship me if the people didn't. God has ways to send his voice/Word unto people whenever however his desires. Vibrations of mountains and rocks if necessary.

Jesus Christ came speaking only God's words ... [John 8:25-29; John 12:49-50] doing only what the Father God wanted him to do; therefore, Jesus was The living WORD of God speaking through a physical mouth unto mankind with ears. [John 5:19,26-28]

Once The WORD/Jesus spoke to a group of religious leaders scolding them about their ignorance and how they would not know The Father if they saw him. Saying, "You have never heard the Father's voice nor seen his visible shape. [5:37]

He also mentioned, even though these experts had the scriptures in which they trusted for their salvation from God, they did not have The truth of God's WORD abiding within them/their understanding. [John 5:37-39] He said, If you did, then you would come to me ... that ye might have life.

Jesus said another time: I Am [being The WORD of God] the TRUTH, The WAY and The LIFE. [John 8:19] IOW ... if these men had recognized him as the promised Son ... then that would have proved they had previously seen the Father ... for I think they looked and sounded alike. That's another subject, but Jesus did say another time: When you have SEEN ME, you have SEEN The Father."

Lastly, Jesus proclaimed to be the WORD of God who spoke with authority. [John 5:26-27] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son [The Word] to have life in himself; ...and authority to judge ...

Summing up: The WORD was with God and is God. The LIVING WORD came as the fleshly Messiah on a mission to speak the TRUTH about the WAY to the Kingdom ... God gave The WORD a measure of LIFE in his body ... and additional life which would be the gift of Spiritual LIFE he could share for saving human souls.

To me, The WORD of God is not just words written on a page ... HE is the walking talking living God come in flesh to share truth and provide salvation.

I wrote this quickly today ... After being at a hospital emergency room with my 101 year old mother in law last night ... and today up and down doing needed tasks ... plus soon will pick up grand kids from bus ... Just haven't the time to carefully proof read. Sorry.

 

[Clete]

Where I come from when I consider God and the WORD.
First, God is just omni-everything

Omni-evil
Omni-sinful
Omni-mean spirited
Omni-stupid
Omni-rediculous

Oh wait! That's you! My mistake!

but I will focus on the fact that scripture says God is LIFE; therefore, I conclude that everything God is - all his attributes, power, character, intellect and etc. are ALIVE.

Meaningless

When I consider him in totality

Can't be done.

there is not one bit of his essence that is more alive than any other.

Meaningless.

His power lives, his wisdom lives, his strength lives, his voice lives ...

All meaningless.

but I do think he can allocate measures of his essence to created things ... created things never equal God nor does God loose any of himself as he shares for all is made by him, for him, in him, and consist of him.

Again, all meaningless double talk. You don't even know what you're saying and couldn't explain it if your life depended on it.

Now, considering the VOICE of God which came walking in the Garden to visit Adam and Woman: I believe he was the living voice of God

Stupidity. It was just God.

What is a voice? It is an audible sound made when intellect produces it;

My dog has a voice. Catfish have a voice.

so, regarding the living voice of God, it is coherent audible living speech.

Meaningless.

Another way to talk about the voice from God is to say - The WORD came unto beings having the ability to hear it. Such came unto Adam and the prophets of old.

There was no disembodied "voice"! It was God Himself!

John in the Book of John 1 explained pretty well how that worked. The WORD was with God and simultaneously was God's audible voice.

There isn't more than one God!

Jesus, being God and the voice of God, once said something like this:

Jesus is not the voice of God, He is GOD - period.

I could make these rocks cry out and worship me if the people didn't.

That isn't what He said.

God has ways to send his voice/Word unto people whenever however his desires. Vibrations of mountains and rocks if necessary.

It was a figure of speech! The point was that there wasn't ever any way that there wasn't going to be someone to praise Him. He wasn't suggesting that the inanimate rocks would actually spout mouths with which to utter praise. Is it that just pretty much every single thing you think of is mystical or what?

Jesus Christ came speaking only God's words ... [John 8:25-29; John 12:49-50] doing only what the Father God wanted him to do; therefore, Jesus was The living WORD of God speaking through a physical mouth unto mankind with ears. [John 5:19,26-28]

That's because He is God! Any words He happened to say, were God's words by definition.

Once The WORD/Jesus spoke to a group of religious leaders scolding them about their ignorance and how they would not know The Father if they saw him. Saying, "You have never heard the Father's voice nor seen his visible shape. [5:37]

Contradict yourself much?

I know - you don't see how. Live with it.

He also mentioned, even though these experts had the scriptures in which they trusted for their salvation from God, they did not have The truth of God's WORD abiding within them/their understanding. [John 5:37-39] He said, If you did, then you would come to me ... that ye might have life.

This cannot be true if the rest of what you've said in this post is true!

I mean I thought God was "omni-everything" and "living everything", etc. How does that work if these men can spend their whole lives studying God's words and "even though these experts had the scriptures in which they trusted for their salvation from God, they did not have The truth of God's WORD abiding within them"?

Flat out, both cannot be true. You really should stop making up your doctrine off the top of your head, which it's easy to tell is what you're doing here.

Jesus said another time: I Am [being The WORD of God] the TRUTH, The WAY and The LIFE. [John 8:19] IOW ... if these men had recognized him as the promised Son ... then that would have proved they had previously seen the Father ... for I think they looked and sounded alike. That's another subject, but Jesus did say another time: When you have SEEN ME, you have SEEN The Father."

There is but one SINGULAR God! Jesus is Him!

Lastly, Jesus proclaimed to be the WORD of God who spoke with authority. [John 5:26-27] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son [The Word] to have life in himself; ...and authority to judge ...

This is nothing at all other than Jesus directly claiming to be THE God!

Summing up: The WORD was with God and is God. The LIVING WORD came as the fleshly Messiah on a mission to speak the TRUTH about the WAY to the Kingdom ... God gave The WORD a measure of LIFE in his body ... and additional life which would be the gift of Spiritual LIFE he could share for saving human souls.

This is convoluted and meaningless in the way you are expressing it here.

The Creator God Himself BECAME flesh and dwelt among us. There are not multiple God's. The Word (Logos) IS GOD Himself!

To me, The WORD of God is not just words written on a page ... HE is the walking talking living God come in flesh to share truth and provide salvation.

Then why speak of "the voice" as if it is distinct from Himself? Why speak of Jesus as if He is not ONE with the Father?

I wrote this quickly today ... After being at a hospital emergency room with my 101 year old mother in law last night ... and today up and down doing needed tasks ... plus soon will pick up grand kids from bus ... Just haven't the time to carefully proof read. Sorry.

I for one don't pay any attention to typos, not that I even noticed any. What I do notice is when someone is just popping stuff off the top of their head without given any effort to think it through and ponder the implications of what they are saying.

At the end of the day, what you’ve offered is grounded in neither clear reasoning nor Scripture, and it doesn’t even serve any real purpose! It’s a jumble of mystical-sounding phrases that neither inform nor transform. There’s no clarity, no consistency, and frankly, no utility. Truth matters, not because it sounds spiritual, but because it actually helps us know God as He is, not as we imagine Him to be, and that requires more than platitudes and feeling our way through the formulation of our doctrine. It requires thought - careful, deliberate, dispassionate thought! Or, or put in a single Greek word, it requires "Logos"!