Robb Elementary School shooting

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
Disagree regarding age but mental health and background checks should be stringent no matter how old.
We already have as extensive a back ground check as is possible right now, and we are required when applying for the check to disclose if we have any mental health issues. If we lie it's felony perjury.

To go beyond this is to make laws authorizing our medical professionals to divulge to the government whatever they think is relevant gleaned from private, confidential meetings with patients. It would be immoral imo, though perhaps it's only not expedient or pragmatic, objectively. Bad idea either way.

We're working in some states to force people selling their lawfully owned guns to do so in cooperation with a federal firearms licensee (so the FFL can run the FBI back ground check). The trouble here is that there's already laws forbidding us from selling to known felons, it's a federal felony if we do this.

Perhaps if we don't already have this, we could outlaw selling privately to someone you know to be suicidal. That could be a crime, if it isn't already.

Of course the other trouble with all these nitpicking gun controls is that Ukraine, exists. Obviously it's abject lunacy to suggest that enemy invasion is impossible right now. And really forever, so long as there are sovereign nations with any belligerent ambitions at all.

In the "war test" for gun control proposals, many of them fail prima facie. Would you deny a Ukrainian civilian a standard issue military rifle and ammunition right now, just because the man is a armed robber, if the Russians are coming, like just over that hill? The question in the war test spins around the situation. Ideally we don't want armed robbers loose, but if the Russians are coming, the question's more about loyalty. Is this armed robber going to defend Ukrainians? Or will he side with the Russians.

Even suicidal people might in a moment of need provide the game winning cover fire while the young family flees to safety.

The war test makes us first ask, "Where do you stand on the Constitution?" Very much like how our Constitution forces all our government officials, both elected and appointed (hired), to swear an oath to defend the Constitution. That would be a more apt back ground check or mental health check or age test for owning standard issue weaponry, and carrying them openly as you go about your business.

Does this guy support the Constitution? Then give him a gun----and a good one, standard issue military anyway. And super max capacity magazine clips. "Magazine 'clips'".

For suicidal people frankly you'd probably have to interview everybody personally. You'd have to interrogate them, get them to disclose their suicidality through cunning. Say, "Sure, you can have guns, just as soon as we complete this series of in-person interviews." If you're not suicidal, it should be a piece of cake. It should only catch truly suicidal people.

How do you design a law that would put such a system in place?

Maybe do the suicidality interview first, and then followup with the oath to the Constitution. If they fail either they can't get any guns.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
We already have as extensive a back ground check as is possible right now, and we are required when applying for the check to disclose if we have any mental health issues. If we lie it's felony perjury.

To go beyond this is to make laws authorizing our medical professionals to divulge to the government whatever they think is relevant gleaned from private, confidential meetings with patients. It would be immoral imo, though perhaps it's only not expedient or pragmatic, objectively. Bad idea either way.

We're working in some states to force people selling their lawfully owned guns to do so in cooperation with a federal firearms licensee (so the FFL can run the FBI back ground check). The trouble here is that there's already laws forbidding us from selling to known felons, it's a federal felony if we do this.

Perhaps if we don't already have this, we could outlaw selling privately to someone you know to be suicidal. That could be a crime, if it isn't already.

Of course the other trouble with all these nitpicking gun controls is that Ukraine, exists. Obviously it's abject lunacy to suggest that enemy invasion is impossible right now. And really forever, so long as there are sovereign nations with any belligerent ambitions at all.

In the "war test" for gun control proposals, many of them fail prima facie. Would you deny a Ukrainian civilian a standard issue military rifle and ammunition right now, just because the man is a armed robber, if the Russians are coming, like just over that hill? The question in the war test spins around the situation. Ideally we don't want armed robbers loose, but if the Russians are coming, the question's more about loyalty. Is this armed robber going to defend Ukrainians? Or will he side with the Russians.

Even suicidal people might in a moment of need provide the game winning cover fire while the young family flees to safety.

The war test makes us first ask, "Where do you stand on the Constitution?" Very much like how our Constitution forces all our government officials, both elected and appointed (hired), to swear an oath to defend the Constitution. That would be a more apt back ground check or mental health check or age test for owning standard issue weaponry, and carrying them openly as you go about your business.

Does this guy support the Constitution? Then give him a gun----and a good one, standard issue military anyway. And super max capacity magazine clips. "Magazine 'clips'".

For suicidal people frankly you'd probably have to interview everybody personally. You'd have to interrogate them, get them to disclose their suicidality through cunning. Say, "Sure, you can have guns, just as soon as we complete this series of in-person interviews." If you're not suicidal, it should be a piece of cake. It should only catch truly suicidal people.

How do you design a law that would put such a system in place?

Maybe do the suicidality interview first, and then followup with the oath to the Constitution. If they fail either they can't get any guns.
No, you don't which is frankly, patently obvious. It's far too easy for people to avail themselves of guns without stringent measures in place, verified background checks etc etc. Robb Elementary is the latest in a long line of massacres and you can't single out suicide as the prevailing factor here either and how in the heck do you even ascertain as to whether somebody is suicidal/homicidal anyway? An interview? What, you think that people are just going to admit to such? What's the 'pass' mark? They say they're not and pledge an oath and they're all okay to get guns? If you think you can easily spot a person who's severely depressed to the point of wishing to end their own life then in all honesty, you need a reality check. Many suicides have shocked immediate family and friends as they've had no idea. People often put on an outward face of being okay, happy even that can't be detected until the deed is done.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
Seriously, laws that people are disagreeing with come about because of...people who disagree with them and think they should be changed? How on earth do you work that one out? Your latter is just asinine dude. You should really do better than that.
See...He loves it. :)
 

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
No, you don't which is frankly, patently obvious. It's far too easy for people to avail themselves of guns without stringent measures in place, verified background checks etc etc. Robb Elementary is the latest in a long line of massacres and you can't single out suicide as the prevailing factor here either and how in the heck do you even ascertain as to whether somebody is suicidal/homicidal anyway? An interview? What, you think that people are just going to admit to such? What's the 'pass' mark? They say they're not and pledge an oath and they're all okay to get guns? If you think you can easily spot a person who's severely depressed to the point of wishing to end their own life then in all honesty, you need a reality check. Many suicides have shocked immediate family and friends as they've had no idea. People often put on an outward face of being okay, happy even that can't be detected until the deed is done.
So do you think "red flag" laws are a good idea then or nah?
 

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
I don't get it. What about all this?
No, you don't which is frankly, patently obvious. It's far too easy for people to avail themselves of guns without stringent measures in place, verified background checks etc etc. Robb Elementary is the latest in a long line of massacres and you can't single out suicide as the prevailing factor here either and how in the heck do you even ascertain as to whether somebody is suicidal/homicidal anyway? An interview? What, you think that people are just going to admit to such? What's the 'pass' mark? They say they're not and pledge an oath and they're all okay to get guns? If you think you can easily spot a person who's severely depressed to the point of wishing to end their own life then in all honesty, you need a reality check. Many suicides have shocked immediate family and friends as they've had no idea. People often put on an outward face of being okay, happy even that can't be detected until the deed is done.
Aren't you saying red flag laws are pointless?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
I don't get it. What about all this?

Aren't you saying red flag laws are pointless?
Sometimes destructive behaviour can be blatantly apparent which I thought would have been equally obvious. So, in light of that I'm not saying red flag laws are pointless at all. I'm pointing out that people who commit suicide and have severe depression don't always advertise it in any sort of detectable way.
 

marke

Well-known member
No, you don't which is frankly, patently obvious. It's far too easy for people to avail themselves of guns without stringent measures in place, verified background checks etc etc. Robb Elementary is the latest in a long line of massacres and you can't single out suicide as the prevailing factor here either and how in the heck do you even ascertain as to whether somebody is suicidal/homicidal anyway? An interview? What, you think that people are just going to admit to such? What's the 'pass' mark? They say they're not and pledge an oath and they're all okay to get guns? If you think you can easily spot a person who's severely depressed to the point of wishing to end their own life then in all honesty, you need a reality check. Many suicides have shocked immediate family and friends as they've had no idea. People often put on an outward face of being okay, happy even that can't be detected until the deed is done.
Democrat gun laws please leftist Marxist commies because they allow jack-booted cops to bust into a home and seize all the guns without a warrant or justification. Any old 'informant' can falsely accuse any person he wants to be crushed and the jack-booted commie enforcers will do the crushing for him without proving just cause.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
Oh, okay, don't do better then. Shame though, you used to be a poster who I respected despite disagreement. Ho hum.
🥺 Oh Suh! You have shamed me with the realization that you once had respect for one such as I.

😇 I repent, in dust and ashes:

:unsure: Hmmm....It appears however, that your respect of me depends upon my willingness to entertain your assertions not just as to how my country should be run but indeed, the entire world.

I doubt very much if my country banned all the firearms you are currently whining about you would be satisfied.

I doubt very much if my country banned and/or tightly restricted all the firearms such as on your island you would be satisfied.

I doubt very much if the entire world banned every type of personal arm...Knives included...(With the exception of those organizations carrying the approval of The Owners℠ of course.) you would be satisfied.
Because someone would do something horrible and you and Anna will turn to your savior the legislator and his high priest the apparatchik to protect you in an armor of worthless paper from whatever you fear most at the time. Whatever is the current thing. :oops:

;) I know you see me as an extremist...But I'm not. I'm just an every day working class stiff from the 1970's. I'm not an extremist, I'm an anachronism. Now, I know that you can have a great deal of fun with that concept, so go ahead, but I'm going to leave you with a a little chunk of what I am talking about.

Bouncing around the internet you may find an old picture from a newspaper clipping with a caption beneath. I haven't tried to look for it, it may be easy to find or non-existent by now I don't know. The point is that it was of a male teacher standing next to a teenager (probably a junior or a senior) at one of the the entrances of a High School. I think the incident was in North or South Carolina. The boy was holding a rifle and the caption read that there was either an escaped murderer or some such thing in the area and while the local police hunted the fugitive the School posted a member of the School Rifle Team with a faculty member at each of the doors which had to remain unchained (due to fire code).

Now, I'm not suggesting this is an answer for today. Hell, perhaps it wasn't even the brightest of idea's back then, but it worked then because the people had a different mindset than largely exists today.
Like I pointed out, sooner or later the people will beat their personal arms into chains just as you desire. It's simply a matter of time.

When HE returns; swords will be beat into plowshares for Eternity...But not before...Thank you just the same but I'm holding out for that. :cool:

In the meantime, while you appeal to my vanity please be aware that all you consider to be reasonable would legislate away pretty much my entire life. Hell son, your Queen don't even trust you enough to own my dog.....MY DOG! :ROFLMAO:


:rolleyes: My entire life has been made-up of situations and things which your island has outlawed.
EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. I walk down my street with the full knowledge that if I were magically transported to Jolly Ol' England I would be immediately be thrown under the jail for God knows how long simply because of what I have on my person and who I have at the end of my leash.

I'm supposed to entertain this concept in my country? :sneaky:

🤥 I submit to you that you never respected me...You never even knew me.
 
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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
🥺 Oh Suh! You have shamed me with the realization that you once had respect for one such as I.

😇 I repent, in dust and ashes:

:unsure: Hmmm....It appears however, that your respect of me depends upon my willingness to entertain your assertions not just as to how my country should be run but indeed, the entire world.

I doubt very much if my country banned all the firearms you are currently whining about you would be satisfied.

I doubt very much if my country banned and/or tightly restricted all the firearms such as on your island you would be satisfied.

I doubt very much if the entire world banned every type of personal arm...Knives included...(With the exception of those organizations carrying the approval of The Owners℠ of course.) you would be satisfied.
Because someone would do something horrible and you and Anna will turn to your savior the legislator and his high priest the apparatchik to protect you in an armor of worthless paper from whatever you fear most at the time. Whatever is the current thing. :oops:

;) I know you see me as an extremist...But I'm not. I'm just an every day working class stiff from the 1970's. I'm not an extremist, I'm an anachronism. Now, I know that you can have a great deal of fun with that concept, so go ahead, but I'm going to leave you with a a little chunk of what I am talking about.

Bouncing around the internet you may find an old picture from a newspaper clipping with a caption beneath. I haven't tried to look for it, it may be easy to find or non-existent by now I don't know. The point is that it was of a male teacher standing next to a teenager (probably a junior or a senior) at one of the the entrances of a High School. I think the incident was in North or South Carolina. The boy was holding a rifle and the caption read that there was either an escaped murderer or some such thing in the area and while the local police hunted the fugitive the School posted a member of the School Rifle Team with a faculty member at each of the doors which had to remain unchained (due to fire code).

Now, I'm not suggesting this is an answer for today. Hell, perhaps it wasn't even the brightest of idea's back then, but it worked then because the people had a different mindset than largely exists today.
Like I pointed out, sooner or later the people will beat their personal arms into chains just as you desire. It's simply a matter of time.

When HE returns; swords will be beat into plowshares for Eternity...But not before...Thank you just the same but I'm holding out for that. :cool:

In the meantime, while you appeal to my vanity please be aware that all you consider to be reasonable would legislate away pretty much my entire life. Hell son, your Queen don't even trust you enough to own my dog.....MY DOG! :ROFLMAO:


:rolleyes: My entire life has been made-up of situations and things which your island has outlawed.
EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. I walk down my street with the full knowledge that if I were magically transported to Jolly Ol' England I would be immediately be thrown under the jail for God knows how long simply because of what I have on my person and who is at the end of my leash.

I'm supposed to entertain this concept in my country? :sneaky:

🤥 I submit to you that you never respected me...You never even knew me.
 

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
Sometimes destructive behaviour can be blatantly apparent which I thought would have been equally obvious. So, in light of that I'm not saying red flag laws are pointless at all. I'm pointing out that people who commit suicide and have severe depression don't always advertise it in any sort of detectable way.
I was talking about intensive interviews, on multiple days, by professional interrogators. In Israel they interview people coming into the airports face-to-face as part of their security protocol, they have easily spotted people up to no good, and have therefore saved untold numbers of innocent lives. That was just maybe in a few minutes. It could be that suicidal people subjected to even brief interrogation will easily yield their condition to professional interrogators, and that non-suicidal people will find no trouble in passing the examination themselves.

We just need to not hand guns over to people who are angling to kill themselves, not if we can help it anyway. It could be, we can't help it; not morally. We have to entertain that possibility; and not treat it lightly. It's almost 100 years of the 1934 NFA experiment (not really; only an 88 year old experiment by now), the very first 'weapons grade' gun control we've had here. So far the results of gun control do not look promising. We've got a Supreme Court right now who looks to be undoing some of the overall NFA policy (which is a gun control policy, and under this umbrella all of our gun controls are justified).

Hint there won't be blood running in the streets then either. Blood running in the streets has way more to do with war, and immoral (including corrupt) regimes, than it ever could have to do with gun controls.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
🥺 Oh Suh! You have shamed me with the realization that you once had respect for one such as I.

😇 I repent, in dust and ashes:

:unsure: Hmmm....It appears however, that your respect of me depends upon my willingness to entertain your assertions not just as to how my country should be run but indeed, the entire world.

I doubt very much if my country banned all the firearms you are currently whining about you would be satisfied.

I doubt very much if my country banned and/or tightly restricted all the firearms such as on your island you would be satisfied.

I doubt very much if the entire world banned every type of personal arm...Knives included...(With the exception of those organizations carrying the approval of The Owners℠ of course.) you would be satisfied.
Because someone would do something horrible and you and Anna will turn to your savior the legislator and his high priest the apparatchik to protect you in an armor of worthless paper from whatever you fear most at the time. Whatever is the current thing. :oops:

;) I know you see me as an extremist...But I'm not. I'm just an every day working class stiff from the 1970's. I'm not an extremist, I'm an anachronism. Now, I know that you can have a great deal of fun with that concept, so go ahead, but I'm going to leave you with a a little chunk of what I am talking about.

Bouncing around the internet you may find an old picture from a newspaper clipping with a caption beneath. I haven't tried to look for it, it may be easy to find or non-existent by now I don't know. The point is that it was of a male teacher standing next to a teenager (probably a junior or a senior) at one of the the entrances of a High School. I think the incident was in North or South Carolina. The boy was holding a rifle and the caption read that there was either an escaped murderer or some such thing in the area and while the local police hunted the fugitive the School posted a member of the School Rifle Team with a faculty member at each of the doors which had to remain unchained (due to fire code).

Now, I'm not suggesting this is an answer for today. Hell, perhaps it wasn't even the brightest of idea's back then, but it worked then because the people had a different mindset than largely exists today.
Like I pointed out, sooner or later the people will beat their personal arms into chains just as you desire. It's simply a matter of time.

When HE returns; swords will be beat into plowshares for Eternity...But not before...Thank you just the same but I'm holding out for that. :cool:

In the meantime, while you appeal to my vanity please be aware that all you consider to be reasonable would legislate away pretty much my entire life. Hell son, your Queen don't even trust you enough to own my dog.....MY DOG! :ROFLMAO:


:rolleyes: My entire life has been made-up of situations and things which your island has outlawed.
EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. I walk down my street with the full knowledge that if I were magically transported to Jolly Ol' England I would be immediately be thrown under the jail for God knows how long simply because of what I have on my person and who I have at the end of my leash.

I'm supposed to entertain this concept in my country? :sneaky:

🤥 I submit to you that you never respected me...You never even knew me.
Frankly, Tom, you have no idea as to 'what I want' given this. I'm not for anything like you suggest. If you think I support the removal of all gun rights in America then you're wrong. Supporting tighter legislation and restrictions before ownership is not tantamount to that in any way. Why you'e bringing the queen into this is anyone's guess but ftr I'm not a monarchist by any stretch. I've also owned said breed of dog so what are you on about? If you were caught with a gun in Britain and didn't have a permit then you would indeed be arrested but you wouldn't be lobbed in jail for years. I also don't nor ever have regarded you as an extremist.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
Frankly, Tom, you have no idea as to 'what I want' given this. I'm not for anything like you suggest. If you think I support the removal of all gun rights in America then you're wrong. Supporting tighter legislation and restrictions before ownership is not tantamount to that in any way. Why you'e bringing the queen into this is anyone's guess but ftr I'm not a monarchist by any stretch. I've also owned said breed of dog so what are you on about? If you were caught with a gun in Britain and didn't have a permit then you would indeed be arrested but you wouldn't be lobbed in jail for years. I also don't nor ever have regarded you as an extremist.
I guess I made my point since it winds you up so much. :cool:
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
[Insane image]
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

This command I have received from My Father.”

Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings.

And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

John 10:17-21
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
I guess I made my point since it winds you up so much. :cool:
Except you didn't actually make one. You made a bunch of presumptions that didn't hold up is all but if you want to think I was wound up then eh, go right ahead. Kinda used to folk doing that stuff around these parts and you're bringing nothing new to the table in that regard.
 
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