Theology Club: SaulToPaul and the Epistle to the Romans

[Jerry Shugart]

Earlier, after much discussion, I asked SaulToPaul the following question:

So according to your ideas the people who made up the church at Rome were not saved when Paul wrote his epistle to them and at that time they were not in the Body of Christ.

Is that right?​

STP answered by saying:

I can come to none other conclusion having read, and believed, chapter 1.

If the members of the church at Rome were not in the Body of Christ then what "body" is Paul speaking of here?:

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:4-5).​

What Paul tells those in the church at Rome here confirms in my mind that they were indeed saved:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Ro.6:3-5).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It seems as if all those in the Neo-MAD camp are always agreeing with STP.

Do you agree with him about his idea that those who received the epistle to the Romans were not saved and were not in the Body of Christ?

 

[heir]

It seems as if all those in the Neo-MAD camp are always agreeing with STP.

Do you agree with him about his idea that those who received the epistle to the Romans were not saved and were not in the Body of Christ?

As I said in the other thread (among other things about this topic):


It's not so hard to see that they weren't saved at the writing of it, but became saved because of the writing of it as God foreknew they would believe!


Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You already have a thread on the Romans. Why open another one?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112792

 

[patrick jane]

Earlier, after much discussion, I asked SaulToPaul the following question:

So according to your ideas the people who made up the church at Rome were not saved when Paul wrote his epistle to them and at that time they were not in the Body of Christ.

Is that right?​

STP answered by saying:

yeah, i answered that in the thread where it came up. why don't you participate in threads instead of starting needless meaningless new ones ?

 

[patrick jane]

It seems as if all those in the Neo-MAD camp are always agreeing with STP.

Do you agree with him about his idea that those who received the epistle to the Romans were not saved and were not in the Body of Christ?

yes, i agree with STP AND heir, they aren't Neo like you -

where is this camp ? and the Acts 28 "community" ? how do i get there ? do you know what neo is ? you are Neo something or another

 

[Danoh]

HeeeEEEEYYYY ABBBBOTTTT!

What is it, now Lou, can't you see I'm busy!

Who's in first?

Neo-MAD!

What did I do?

Wrong! Its STP.

Stop Teasing Please?

So, you Neo-MAD, or not?

No - Boiling Mad!

So who's in first?

Its lunch time - 12 Out!

No, they're in!

When in Rome, hunh?

No - STP!

Now I'm mad!

There ya go!

:drum:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It's not so hard to see that they weren't saved at the writing of it, but became saved because of the writing of it as God foreknew they would believe!

Yes, sister.

If the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation for every one that believeth, and it is, why was Paul eager to preach it to the Romans (allegedly already saved)?

Very important question, for which Jerry Shugart the Stedfast has no answer.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's not so hard to see that they weren't saved at the writing of it, but became saved because of the writing of it as God foreknew they would believe!

When Paul took his pen to hand to write to them he believed that they were already saved, as witnessed by what he said here:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Ro.6:3-5).​

Remember, these words were written prior to the time when those in the church at Rome read it. Therefore, common sense dictates that Paul thought that they were saved before they read this epistle.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, sister.

If the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation for every one that believeth, and it is, why was Paul eager to preach it to the Romans (allegedly already saved)?

Very important question, for which Jerry Shugart the Stedfast has no answer.

Since Paul had not yet had the opportunity to preach the gospel PERSONALLY to the believers in Rome then I am sure that he would welcome the opportunity to preach it to them in more detail and answer any questions which they might have.

I have had pastors in churches which I have attended who made it a practice to preach the gospel often, especially knowing that people were always coming to their churches for the first time and those pastors knew it was essential that those people heard the gospel.

So you don't seem to have any real knowledge concerning the practices of pastors in their ministries. Did you never hear a pastor actually preach the gospel in a church which you attended?

And what specific "body" do you think that Paul is referring to here?:

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:4-5).​

It seems unlikely that Paul would refer to a group of unbelievers are "one body in Christ."

How can unbelievers be described as being "in Christ"?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

-DELETE-

 

[patrick jane]

HeeeEEEEYYYY ABBBBOTTTT!

What is it, now Lou, can't you see I'm busy!

Who's in first?

Neo-MAD!

What did I do?

Wrong! Its STP.

Stop Teasing Please?

So, you Neo-MAD, or not?

No - Boiling Mad!

So who's in first?

Its lunch time - 12 Out!

No, they're in!

When in Rome, hunh?

No - STP!

Now I'm mad!

There ya go!

:drum:

it's ON first -

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Romans 15
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.

23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;

24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.



Romans 1
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:




Put it together in your minds...

 

[Danoh]

it's ON first -

Its a paraphrase; not the KJV, lol

 

[Danoh]

Romans 15
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.

23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;

24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.



Romans 1
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:




Put it together in your minds...

Ok, Almost 28er :rotfl:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I am open to being labelled whatever fits:

1. I believe the dispensation of the gospel began in Acts 9.
2. I believe a transition occurred in Acts 18, steering Paul onto his eventual course, and is hinted at in Romans and 2 Corinthians.
3. I believe the dispensation of the grace of God began shortly after Acts 28.
4. I believe there is one Body of Christ, made up of heirs and joint-heirs.
5. I believe the dispensation of the gospel and the dispensation of the grace of God will conclude with the Rapture of the Body.

:e4e:

 

[heir]

I am open to being labelled whatever fits:

1. I believe the dispensation of the gospel began in Acts 9.
2. I believe a transition occurred in Acts 20, steering Paul onto his eventual course, and is hinted at in Romans and 2 Corinthians.
3. I believe the dispensation of the grace of God began shortly after Acts 28.
4. I believe there is one Body of Christ, made up of heirs and joint-heirs.
5. I believe the dispensation of the gospel and the dispensation of the grace of God will conclude with the Rapture of the Body.

:e4e:

saved, rightly dividing, Bible believer, it is, then!

 

[Danoh]

I am open to being labelled whatever fits:

1. I believe the dispensation of the gospel began in Acts 9.
2. I believe a transition occurred in Acts 18, steering Paul onto his eventual course, and is hinted at in Romans and 2 Corinthians.
3. I believe the dispensation of the grace of God began shortly after Acts 28.
4. I believe there is one Body of Christ, made up of heirs and joint-heirs.
5. I believe the dispensation of the gospel and the dispensation of the grace of God will conclude with the Rapture of the Body.

:e4e:

Don't take my "Almost 28er,"
To mean I am your hater.

Its just a quip; is all,
Brother Saul to Paul.

 

[DAN P]

I am open to being labelled whatever fits:
i
3. I believe the dispensation of the grace of God began shortly after Acts 28.
:e4e:

Hi , so lets have a verse for this ??

dan p

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Hi , so lets have a verse for this ??

dan p

Acts 29:1 (KJV).

I came to this conclusion, Dan P the Great, by studying Acts side by side with Paul's letters.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1. I believe the dispensation of the gospel began in Acts 9.
2. I believe a transition occurred in Acts 18, steering Paul onto his eventual course, and is hinted at in Romans and 2 Corinthians.
3. I believe the dispensation of the grace of God began shortly after Acts 28.
4. I believe there is one Body of Christ, made up of heirs and joint-heirs.
5. I believe the dispensation of the gospel and the dispensation of the grace of God will conclude with the Rapture of the Body.

So according to your ideas there are now two different dispensations in effect and they will both conclude at the rapture?

And from what you said then can it be said that you are both an Acts 9 Dispensationsalist at the same time you are an Acts 28 Dispensationalist?

So what are the dispensational responsibilities for both dispensations?

And what determines which responsibility belongs to who?