Shilo and Lee on God

[lee_merrill]

It says, very plainly, God "grieved" He had created man.

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

Yes, that is what I believe is the best interpretation here, glad to agree...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Nineveh]

When you become capable of staying on the issue and answering a simple question without a lame dodge, let me know.

Wow... :dizzy:


:Nineveh:

 

[Nineveh]

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

Yes, that is what I believe is the best interpretation here, glad to agree...

...to feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it...

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Nineveh,

...to feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it...

Well, no, that is not what I believe! Grieved does not necessarily imply a change of mind, as in the cross where Jesus was said to be "a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief," yet he stayed steadfastly with his face "set towards Jerusalem."

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. I am going on vacation now, will be back on Tuesday...

 

[Nineveh]

Well, no, that is not what I believe! Grieved does not necessarily imply a change of mind,...

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

...to feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it...

P.S. I am going on vacation now, will be back on Tuesday...

Be safe :wave:

 

[shilohproject]

Wow... :dizzy:


:Nineveh:

Typical non-response. So, let's try again.

What was differant about Adam and Eve after they ate of the Tree, since you ascribe full humanity, knowledge, etc., to them before they ate of it? Come on, just try. This may be fun.

 

[Nineveh]

So, let's try again.

Ok, slowly reread post 59. They say the third time is a charm. :Nineveh:

 

[shilohproject]

Ok, slowly reread post 59. They say the third time is a charm. :Nineveh:

Okay, I reread it, wisegal. It doesn't address the question I'm asking you to consider. Not at all. Do you understand the question? Perhaps I'm not expressing it well.

BTW, which thread is this now under, or rather where does it show on the forums menu? I have a hard time finding it sometimes unless I go to previous posts. Help.

 

[Nineveh]

shilo,
I'm sorry to say, you keep stumbling over your own questions, then go on to a new ones. One thing at a time. Until you can face the simple fact satan tempted Eve, starting with her undertanding of what God had commanded (verse 1) and expected of them, what more is there to say? Toddle off to a new question so you can look the simple truth in the face again and deny it yet once again?

This thread is in Gerneral Theology. Try this: go up to the top of this page and look for "Thread Tools". It's in the blue stripe along with: View First Unread, Search this Thread, Thread Tools, and Rate This Thread. It's a drop down menu that includes, "Subscribe to this thread". If it reads, "Unsubscibe from this thread", you should already have it in your "User CP". You can access your Control Panel (User CP), by clicking on the button that says , "User CP" at the very top of this page located next to: Home, Register, and FAQ...

Another short cut is to bookmark your User CP

 

[shilohproject]

shilo,
I'm sorry to say, you keep stumbling over your own questions, then go on to a new ones. One thing at a time. Until you can face the simple fact satan tempted Eve, starting with her undertanding of what God had commanded (verse 1) and expected of them, what more is there to say? Toddle off to a new question so you can look the simple truth in the face again and deny it yet once again?

Not a new question. I'm trying to get you to return to my original question. How the serpent chose to address Eve is not the issue; it's whether or not Eve/Adam's lack of the knowledge of good/evil, right/wrong impacted the episode and what does that tell us about the Creator's expectations, etc. Go back to the beginning, before you pitched in the language stuff. (Post 12, this thread) The issue is ignorance of the difference in right and wrong.

Shiloh has an "h." Thanks for the tips.

 

[Nineveh]

Not a new question. I'm trying to get you to return to my original question.

Even after I went through this thread an gathered it all up for you.... Amazing.

How the serpent chose to address Eve is not the issue; it's whether or not Eve/Adam's lack of the knowledge of good/evil, right/wrong impacted the episode and what does that tell us about the Creator's expectations, etc. Go back to the beginning, before you pitched in the language stuff. (Post 12, this thread) The issue is ignorance of the difference in right and wrong.

"before you pitched in the language stuff", you mean post #13, my first reply to you. The point you still can not address honestly.


You are welcome :Nineveh:

 

[shilohproject]

Even after I went through this thread an gathered it all up for you.... Amazing.

Yes, it is amazing that you continue to miss/avoid the issue. It is not about language; it's about the implications of not knowing evil/good, right/wrong.

"before you pitched in the language stuff", you mean post #13, my first reply to you. The point you still can not address honestly.

I've addressed it every single time. But I'll do it again: Language is not the issue, rather understanding is, and they had no understanding of the nature of their actions because they were ignorant to right and wrong, good and evil.

 

[Nineveh]

Yes, it is amazing that you continue to miss/avoid the issue. It is not about language; it's about the implications of not knowing evil/good, right/wrong.

This is the last time I am going to explain this, shiloh.

You do not need to know right from wrong if you understand spoken language. Eve knew God did not want her to eat that fruit, but she wanted to and did.

If that is not clear enough, I don't know how else to say it.

I've addressed it every single time. But I'll do it again: Language is not the issue, rather understanding is

I am glad you finally agree.

... and Eve understood she was not supposed to eat that fruit, but she wanted to and did.

, and they had no understanding of the nature of their actions

Only if they did not understand, which you just admitted they did. Why? Because God told them.

Shiloh, I am going to offer you some advice and I hope you take it for how it's meant, in an edifying manner. Please skip church for the next year and dedicate yourself to reading the Bible. From beginning to end, and pray

It takes you so much effort to make the simple things God says mean something different. And to what end? Isn't it just easier to believe the truth than to try remembering all the lies?

 

[shilohproject]

This is the last time I am going to explain this, shiloh.

You do not need to know right from wrong if you understand spoken language. Eve knew God did not want her to eat that fruit, but she wanted to and did.

If that is not clear enough, I don't know how else to say it.

Then tell me what was the differance in them before and after eating of the Tree? It seems to me that you place no developmental value on the incident, when scripture clearly seems to.

I am glad you finally agree.

... and Eve understood she was not supposed to eat that fruit, but she wanted to and did.



Only if they did not understand, which you just admitted they did. Why? Because God told them.

To understand language and to understand the right/wrong implications of it all are not the same thing. That's my point.

Shiloh, I am going to offer you some advice and I hope you take it for how it's meant, in an edifying manner. Please skip church for the next year and dedicate yourself to reading the Bible. From beginning to end, and pray

I'll try to believe an edifying intent in your advice, but I've read the Bible through many time, annotating many translation varieties along the way. That is exactly why I cannot accept the typical explination for these sorts of episodes. They don't make sense. As to attending church, I don't plan on dropping out of my obligations to my church family. BTW, these notions I'm expressing are not ones I heard in any church. Although they should be!

It takes you so much effort to make the simple things God says mean something different. And to what end? Isn't it just easier to believe the truth than to try remembering all the lies?

That's all I asking for. Example: the Truth is they did not die.

 

[Nineveh]

Then tell me what was the differance in them before and after eating of the Tree?

They chose to willfully disobey God, they rebelled, they sinned, they were now sinners, unable to perfectly commune with Holy God, they were unholy, no longer "very good", they were cut off spiritually from God, they died spiritually.

It seems to me that you place no developmental value on the incident, when scripture clearly seems to.

I'm wondering if you find your "developmental value" more important than the text.

To understand language and to understand the right/wrong implications of it all are not the same thing. That's my point.

It's obvious you aren't going to see the text for what it says. There is nothing further I can offer you on this point.

I'll try to believe an edifying intent in your advice, but I've read the Bible through many time, annotating many translation varieties along the way. That is exactly why I cannot accept the typical explination for these sorts of episodes. They don't make sense.

Perhaps it's your "developmental value" that isn't making sense. You believe Adam and Eve were created in God's image as ignoramuses that didn't know what "no" meant. You dismiss the direct evidence they did know because satan started tempting them on their understanding of what God clearly told them. You seem to want to reject Eve willfully placed her own will over God's.

I'm not surprised you are confused by the actual text, shiloh. The way you need to twist the concise into something foreign is bound to do that to you.

As to attending church, I don't plan on dropping out of my obligations to my church family. BTW, these notions I'm expressing are not ones I heard in any church. Although they should be!

You got them from somewhere and you chose a church you felt at home in. You aren't going to go anywhere while being comforted in ignoring the obvious. But hey, you are a big kid.

That's all I asking for. Example: the Truth is they did not die.

Right, you got that from satan, the father of truth.

Except they did die, not just in just one way, but two. See my reply to your first question for further details. :Nineveh:

 

[seekinganswers]

This thread was split from here.

Repent:
1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.

2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it

3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.


(1.)God felt remorse that he had made us. (2.)He regretted doing that. (3.)But creation wasn't a sin God committed. It was our evil hearts that made God sorry.

lmohm,
Have you read BR X so far?

Just a note that I made in the original posting. Repent in the Hebrew does not signify any of those definitions mentioned, but literally means to turn. Now it is our modern understanding of repentance as an internal disposition that distorts what repentance really is. It is a physical turning from something, i.e. from sin, from an action, from something. Now if repentance is understood as an action, we have no problem with God repenting, for God can act as God pleases. But if repent is seen as an internal disposition, then we are in big trouble. For now God cannot decide what to do (and really humans are excused from the physical world, leaving actions as meaningless with regards to repentance). I suggest we go with the original understand of repent, in the Hebrew, and try to correct our misguided understanding of repentance.

Peace,
Michael

 

[shilohproject]

They chose to willfully disobey God, they rebelled, they sinned, they were now sinners, unable to perfectly commune with Holy God, they were unholy, no longer "very good", they were cut off spiritually from God, they died spiritually.

I'm asking, what about them is differant know that they have the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong? e.g. Do they now know that it is wrong to disobey?

I'm wondering if you find your "developmental value" more important than the text.

I'm basing all of this on the text, which btw never says anything about dying "spiritually."

It's obvious you aren't going to see the text for what it says. There is nothing further I can offer you on this point.

I'm reading it for what it says, i.e they didn't know right from wrong, they did not die... But you may be correct in saying that (at least at this point in your life) you have nothing to offer in this examination of the Tree episode.

Perhaps it's your "developmental value" that isn't making sense.

You don't know me, Nineveh.

You believe Adam and Eve were created in God's image as ignoramuses that didn't know what "no" meant. You dismiss the direct evidence they did know because satan started tempting them on their understanding of what God clearly told them. You seem to want to reject Eve willfully placed her own will over God's.

I haven't addressed the notion of Eve's will at all. It's the consequence of her not having a knowledge of good and evil that I''ve been trying to examine. One of the things you mention frequently is this "ignoramous" label; it's not something I think is needed, or beneficial. There are clearly differances in God and the man He created "in his own image." This failure to understand right and wrong, good and evil was one of those differances. It seems resonable to me that He recognized this and extended grace to them immediately. One could even argue that God knew they would eat of the Tree and allowed it to happen specifically to make them more fully human. Without a knowledge of right and wrong, one can hardly be said to have a will, or to truly be able to choose to follow after God. Mankind would be morally like little children, blindly following along like ants in a line.

I'm not surprised you are confused by the actual text, shiloh. The way you need to twist the concise into something foreign is bound to do that to you.

No confusion on this end, just reading what is says, and then being honest about it.

You got them from somewhere...

Study, prayer, listening, thinking...

and you chose a church you felt at home in.

You bet, but also one that challenges and confronts.

You aren't going to go anywhere while being comforted in ignoring the obvious.

You mean like they didn't die?

But hey, you are a big kid.

You too, I presume.

Right, you got that from satan, the father of truth.

I presume sarcasm here.) But no, I got it from the Bible. Or are you saying that God told them they would die spiritually?

Except they did die, not just in just one way, but two. See my reply to your first question for further details. :Nineveh:

Well, you say you believe the Bible, but then create a fanciful explination for why they didn't die, then say that someone who reads quite plainly that they lived on for a long time is ignoring what is obvious. Neat trick, that. No wonder so many people don't believe the testimony they get from Christians. It so often doubles back on itself.

But I have great hope for you. I think your passion shows a real desire, even if you are trapped inside the box right now.

 

[Nineveh]

I'm asking, what about them is differant know that they have the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong? e.g. Do they now know that it is wrong to disobey?

If an english answer wasn't good enough shiloh, what would be? Our convo has turned into "pop goes the weasel".

You don't know me, Nineveh.

I know you well enough

But I have great hope for you. I think your passion shows a real desire, even if you are trapped inside the box right now.

It's not me that's trapped into believing things like satan tells the truth :Nineveh:

 

[Nineveh]

Just a note that I made in the original posting. Repent in the Hebrew does not signify any of those definitions mentioned, but literally means to turn. Now it is our modern understanding of repentance as an internal disposition that distorts what repentance really is.

Post #11
According to my Hebrew word study:
nacham: sigh, ie breath strongly; by impl. to be sorry, ie. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflex.) rue; (unfavorably) to avenge...

It means the same thing. Perhaps that's why the people who translated the Bible used that word instead of something else.

It is a physical turning from something, i.e. from sin, from an action, from something. Now if repentance is understood as an action, we have no problem with God repenting, for God can act as God pleases. But if repent is seen as an internal disposition, then we are in big trouble."

You don't see a problem with God repenting from sin He has committed, but you do see a problem if He is grieved in His heart ("internal disposition")?

For now God cannot decide what to do (and really humans are excused from the physical world, leaving actions as meaningless with regards to repentance).

The Bible recorded God knew what He was going to do, and the He did it.

I suggest we go with the original understand of repent, in the Hebrew, and try to correct our misguided understanding of repentance.

Good idea. See above.

 

[shilohproject]

If an english answer wasn't good enough shiloh, what would be? Our convo has turned into "pop goes the weasel".

It has turned into a fine display of your not understanding the sublties of the spiritual landscape.

I know you well enough

No, you only have shown that you know your own preconceptions well.

It's not me that's trapped into believing things like satan tells the truth :Nineveh:

You believe the Bible lies about their still being alive! You have to create some convoluted excuse like "die really means die spiritually." So, you add to the Bible, all because you cannot accept the obvious truth that God changed His mind and did not have them die. Words mean things, and die means die. They did not die. Simple. I never said that "Satan" tells the truth in this instance, although clearly at times he does. A liar doesn't lie all the time, Nineveh. In this instance the serpent, who is a "beast of the field" I believe, told the truth. They did not die.

Nevertheless, the issue remains one of whether or not a lack of the knowlede of good and evil, right and wrong played a part in all this. It is something you have yet to show an ability to address.