ECT Spiritual Israel?

[turbosixx]

How can something about Gentile salvation and or establishment that was kept secret since the world began, be the same as that about Gentile salvation that was prophesied since the world began?

That is the question.
The way I understand it, salvation for the Gentiles was prophesied but exactly how was not. Fellow heirs.
Ephesians 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

It also says revealed to apostles and prophets, plural. Not Paul alone.

 

[turbosixx]

With no knowledge of Galatians 3:15, would anyone ever get the idea when reading Genesis 12-22 that GOD was referring to one singular seed?

I would think not and Paul clearing it up for them could be proof of that.

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and what is NEW is the MYSTERY , THE BODY OF CHRIST , A NEW CREATION , REDEMPTION , JUSTIFICATION , SEATED IN THE HEAVENLY , A NEW MESSAGE , SAVED BY GRACE , just to mention a few things !!

dan p

I do agree with a lot of your list there. Redemption was prophesied but what it would look like was not.

The mystery was revealed to apostles and prophets, not Paul alone.
Eph. 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

The body is the church.
Col. 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Everyone in the church is saved by grace, a new creation, justified, seated in the heavenly places and therefore saved by grace.
The church began on Pentecost.

 

[steko]

I would think not and Paul clearing it up for them could be proof of that.

In Galatians, Paul was only clearing it up for the gentile Galatian believers that their salvation was not dependent on a relationship to GOD through Abraham's multiplied seed and the law, and was giving them assurance of being justified by faith in Abraham's singular seed, Christ.
His emphasis on the singular seed does not negate the very plain promises to Abraham and his multiplied seed which the verses in Genesis 12-22 refer to. The promises are later repeated to Isaac and Jacob which by that time were at least two seed.
Abraham surely understood by the plain sense of language that GOD was referring to his multiplied seed and not to a singular seed.

 

[turbosixx]

In Galatians, Paul was only clearing it up for the gentile Galatian believers that their salvation was not dependent on a relationship to GOD through Abraham's multiplied seed and the law, and was giving them assurance of being justified by faith in Abraham's singular seed, Christ.
His emphasis on the singular seed does not negate the very plain promises to Abraham and his multiplied seed which the verses in Genesis 12-22 refer to. The promises are later repeated to Isaac and Jacob which by that time were at least two seed.
Abraham surely understood by the plain sense of language that GOD was referring to his multiplied seed and not to a singular seed.

How are the nations of the world blessed through the Jews?

 

[Danoh]

Not at all.
Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

Jesus did the same.
Luke 24:25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

I would suggest you're focusing too much on the commas and not on the paragraph.
It’s all about Jesus, not Israel.
Gal. 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

No one is saying it is all about Israel- that is what your side of the fence continues to conclude we are saying.

How many times have I myself pointed out to people on all sides of the ever octagonal fence that "the issue is CHRIST...ALONE"?

And those passages you just now posted are about what the Law and the Prophets said "about Jesus" and or about His Prophesied resurrection - which is what one first has to prove to a Jew - to this day most of them do not believe that Jesus had been their Prophesied Christ.

Case in point, of others that could be cited...

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

As for what you cited from Galatians, first rightly divide those prior passages you cited.

Here, part one of three videos that go into those seemingly odd words and practices of Paul in Acts in great detail...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsR-YgeyhJ0&app=desktop

Follow the other two messages from that one...

Acts 17:11, 12

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[turbosixx]

No one is saying it is all about Israel- that is what your side of the fence continues to conclude we are saying.

How many times have I myself pointed out to people on all sides of the ever octagonal fence that "the issue is CHRIST...ALONE"?

And those passages you just now posted are about what the Law and the Prophets said "about Jesus" and or about His Prophesied resurrection - which is what one first has to prove to a Jew - to this day most of them do not believe that Jesus had been their Prophesied Christ.

Case in point, of others that could be cited...

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

As for what you cited from Galatians, first rightly divide those prior passages you cited.

Here, part one of three videos that go into those seemingly odd words and practices of Paul in Acts in great detail...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsR-YgeyhJ0&app=desktop

Follow the other two messages from that one...

Acts 17:11, 12

Rom. 5:6-8.

I don't see you making it about Christ alone. Mad very much makes it about Israel and divides Christ. Jesus came into the world to make atonement for mans sin. That is the issue. Sin is not different for Jew or Gentile.

If the church isn't spiritual Israel, how can Gentile members be Abrahams descendants?

 

[steko]

How are the nations of the world blessed through the Jews?

Well, not just the Jews, but all Israel.
But Israel as a nation has never had a generation that came to the place where they could possibly fulfill their role in blessing the nations. It can only be fulfilled when a particular generation comes to Messiah and they are empowered to do so through Abraham's singular seed, Christ.

Zec 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen[nations/gentiles], O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

 

[meshak]

Well, not just the Jews, but all Israel.
But Israel as a nation has never had a generation that came to the place where they could possibly fulfill their role in blessing the nations. It can only be fulfilled when a particular generation comes to Messiah and they are empowered to do so through Abraham's singular seed, Christ.

Zec 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen[nations/gentiles], O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

Jesus explained what it is to be a Abraham's descendant plainly. but you guys disregard it.

 

[steko]

Jesus explained what it is to be a Abraham's descendant plainly. but you guys disregard it.

No, you ignore the context concerning Abraham's seed derived from 'all of' scripture.

 

[meshak]

No, you ignore the context concerning Abraham's seed derived from 'all of' scripture.

suit yourself of your being in denial.

I know you disregard Jesus' plain explanation and twist it.

 

[steko]

suit yourself of your being in denial.

I know you disregard Jesus' plain explanation and twist it.

:e4e: Good day, Madam!

 

[Danoh]

Jesus explained what it is to be a Abraham's descendant plainly. but you guys disregard it.

Meshak Light, I presume? :chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[meshak]

Meshak Light, I presume? :chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.

hello there, friend.

 

[Danoh]

hello there, friend.

How did your move go? Well, I hope. :thumb:

As for the thing about Abraham; you are not rightly dividing the two different aspects of Abraham like Paul does in Romans 4.

In the gospels those are God's people through Abraham AFTER he was given the Covenant of Circumcision.

That is Abraham in James 2, for example.

They are the same people in Early Acts and in Hebrews thru Revelation: The Circumcision (people).

In contrast to that, there is neither Circumcision nor Uncircumcision in the Body.

Those in the Body are the spiritual children of Abraham by faith - but Abraham way back BEFORE he received the Covenant of Circumcision.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

That is TWO aspects of Abraham...

Acts 17:11,12.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

12 plus minutes (shorter version of a 3 part series) proving otherwise, and its basis...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwHfDBqFXk0&app=desktop

2 Tim. 2:15

Eze 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
Eze 47:2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
Eze 47:3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.
Eze 47:4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
Eze 47:5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
Eze 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
Eze 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Eze 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
Eze 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
Eze 47:10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c-kt2qDkIY

LA

 

[Wick Stick]

That is TWO aspects of Abraham...

Yes, it is. But I don't see how that proves the premise of the thread.

Judah and Israel. Israel was slaughtered, after the flesh. It was revived, after the spirit. Now there is Judah and "spiritual Israel" as you call it here. TWO aspects, yes.

 

[Danoh]

Yes, it is. But I don't see how that proves the premise of the thread.

Judah and Israel. Israel was slaughtered, after the flesh. It was revived, after the spirit. Now there is Judah and "spiritual Israel" as you call it here. TWO aspects, yes.

I was referring to Abraham as an example of that faith that he had had back when he had been a Gentile or Uncircimcision BEFORE God then entered into the Covenant of Circumcision with him, and Abraham as an example of that faith that he had back then AFTER God entered into that Covenant of Circumcision with him.

He is the SPIRITUAL father of members of the Body in the sense of that faith that he had had back when he had been in Uncircumcision - or a Gentile - BEFORE God then entered into the Covenant of Circumcision with him.

And he is BOTH the PHYSICAL and the SPIRITUAL father of the BELIEVING Remnant of Israel in that faith that he had had back then AFTER God entered into that Covenant of Circumcision with him.

They are Spiritual Israel: The Physical, but Believing Remnant of Physical Israel.

In contrast, the Body is comprised of BOTH BELIEVING Jews and Gentiles THIS SIDE of when God sealed Spiritual Israel (The Believing Remnant of Israel), and concluded the rest of that Nation under sin with the Gentiles, or Uncircimcision with them, that He might have mercy on both WITHOUT distinction, prior to His wrath, and towards His UnProphesied purpose in said New Agency - the Heavenly Realm.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Danoh]

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c-kt2qDkIY

LA

I watched the entire 14 minutes (length of that video) and even followed his link over to one, and then to another website, looked around, and read some of the various articles, some of which were interesting.

But he does not really prove the Body is spiritual Israel but merely appears to go on his having proved that to his audience in that video itself.

In short, you posted a video study you obviously agree with the assertions of, but which he failed to actually prove.

:chuckle: Sort of like many of DanP's posts - he often never really proves his assertions. He only thinks he does. People are always pointing that out to him to no avail.

Result?

Those of us who find we do agree with him on one thing or another, only agree with him, because we hold the same understanding on that.

And I'm sure some of them erroneously conclude that DP proved what he set out to.

But the guy hardly ever proves what he sets out to.

It appears you did something similar with your posting of that video study - you posted a view the guy never proves, but that you already agree with.

Nevertheless, Rom..5: 6-8 towards you.

 

[Wick Stick]

I was referring to Abraham as an example of that faith that he had had back when he had been a Gentile or Uncircimcision BEFORE God then entered into the Covenant of Circumcision with him, and Abraham as an example of that faith that he had back then AFTER God entered into that Covenant of Circumcision with him.

We aren't talking about different things. I understand why you can't get with my nomenclature, though.

He is the SPIRITUAL father of members of the Body in the sense of that faith that he had had back when he had been in Uncircumcision - or a Gentile - BEFORE God then entered into the Covenant of Circumcision with him.

I don't disagree with anything here. But I would go a step further, and say that members of the Body are adopted. Under the terms of the covenant between God and Abraham, God gives Abraham sons. (That is what Abraham asked for.) For members of the Body, that means that adoption unto God as Father, also means you get Abraham.

And he is BOTH the PHYSICAL and the SPIRITUAL father of the BELIEVING Remnant of Israel in that faith that he had had back then AFTER God entered into that Covenant of Circumcision with him.

They are Spiritual Israel: The Physical, but Believing Remnant of Physical Israel.

There is no remnant of physical Israel. The Northern kingdom was destroyed utterly. Whatever survivors there were lost their status as such when God served them a bill of divorcement via the prophets. Probably you are talking about the remnant of Judah?

In contrast, the Body is comprised of BOTH BELIEVING Jews and Gentiles THIS SIDE of when God sealed Spiritual Israel (The Believing Remnant of Israel), and concluded the rest of that Nation under sin with the Gentiles, or Uncircimcision with them, that He might have mercy on both WITHOUT distinction, prior to His wrath, and towards His UnProphesied purpose in said New Agency - the Heavenly Realm.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

A believing Jew, who is baptized, is no longer a Jew. Baptism is an adoption ceremony, and part of adoption is that you forsake your former heredity, to take on a new one. This is why the Pharisees had such a problem with Jews being baptized. They understood that it was a change of ancestry, and took umbrage.

Question: Are you a 2P or 3P?