I did not hear that side of it... Can you fill me in?
I am trying to get some pics... The old iconography, I understand, was 19th century Russian, which was heavily influenced by the Latins in Russia under Peter the (not so) Great... They thereby became more naturalistic, with the Theotokos having eye shadow etc, though still strictly speaking Byzantine... I have received Communion in a Latin Church chapel in Moscow, ID, where the stations of the cross were there in Byzantine style... We do not, as Orthodox, DO the stations as a prayer rule, as do the Latins... So it struck me as a little odd... But at an rate, the more naturalistic style of sacred depictions of the Latins, which sort of culminated in the Sistine Chapel under the hand of Michangelo, and proceeded to the statuary so common now in that Church, are not all that much in evidence in Orthodox Iconography... We do some iconic carving in wood and in stone, but not normally the naturalistic way that it is done in the western Church...
So they have returned to a more Traditional style of bright Byzantine iconography in the dome and iconostasis, keeping the structure as it was, imported from Russia as a gift from Tsar Nicholas...
Do you know that we regard the turning over of the Russian lands to the atheists as a result of the failure of the Church in Russia to martyr herself at the hands of Peter in his insistence of embracing all things western, including the Latin Church?
I did not know that.
How did he embrace the Latin Church?
But in general I think that period is too late. Modernism isn't Latin Scholasticism, and you yourself spoke about Kalistos' reverence for such figures as Aquinas. :idunno:
Wikipedia tells it well enough. Apparently Ireland had some problem with the fact that Eastern priests can be married. The details are not clear, but I've heard that he thought it would be too confusing for the Roman Catholic laypersons. It may also be that he questioned the legitimacy of that practice.
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <woNotShowPropertyChanges/> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-GB</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <wontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="false" DefSemiHidden="false" DefQFormat="false" DefPriority="99" LatentStyleCount="371"> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" QFormat="true" Name="Normal"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toc 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Normal Indent"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="footnote text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="annotation text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="header"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="footer"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="index heading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="caption"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="table of figures"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="envelope address"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="envelope return"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="footnote reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="annotation reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="line number"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="page number"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="endnote reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="endnote text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="table of authorities"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="macro"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="toa heading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Bullet"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Number"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Bullet 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Bullet 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Bullet 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Bullet 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Number 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Number 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Number 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Number 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" QFormat="true" Name="Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Closing"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Signature"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text Indent"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Message Header"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Salutation"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Date"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text First Indent"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text First Indent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Note Heading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text Indent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text Indent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Block Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Hyperlink"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="FollowedHyperlink"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Document Map"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Plain Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="E-mail Signature"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Top of Form"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Bottom of Form"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Normal (Web)"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Acronym"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Address"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Cite"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Code"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Definition"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Keyboard"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Preformatted"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Sample"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Typewriter"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Variable"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Normal Table"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="annotation subject"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="No List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Outline List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Outline List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Outline List 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Simple 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Simple 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Simple 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Classic 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Classic 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Classic 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Classic 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Colorful 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Colorful 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Colorful 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table 3D effects 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table 3D effects 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table 3D effects 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Contemporary"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Elegant"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Professional"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Subtle 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Subtle 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Web 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Web 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Web 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Balloon Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="Table Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Theme"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Placeholder Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Revision"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" QFormat="true" Name="List Paragraph"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="41" Name="Plain Table 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="42" Name="Plain Table 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="43" Name="Plain Table 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="44" Name="Plain Table 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="45" Name="Plain Table 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="40" Name="Grid Table Light"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0cm; mso-para-margin-right:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:8.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0cm; line-height:107%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} </style> <![endif]-->Hello everyone, thanks for coming. Sorry I couldn’t be here personally to welcome you, but I was unavoidably prevented.
I hope you enjoyed my choice of a few songs. Spirit in the Sky wasn’t written by a Christian, but God uses lots of things for his purposes regardless of the motive of the individual. And you’ve got, When I survey the wondrous Cross, to come at the end.
I want to say a few things briefly to you about what is important to me. I have written many things and this is not the place to go into any detail. So if anyone is interested in pursuing my theology further, ask Neil, and he can point you in the right direction.
The first thing I want to say is only what I have said before here at Kingsland. The Gospel begins and ends with faith. That faith has been made possible because of Christ. He is God’s gift to us. That’s what Paul says. You can have all the right doctrines and do all the right things, but without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is not about what you believe. Neither is it about a state of mind that you can get yourself into with a bit of practice like some sales technique or meditation system. Neither is faith anything to do with practising religious rituals, like going to church on Sunday or making the sign of the cross or raising your arms when you worship or kneeling down or getting baptised.
Faith is nothing other than trust in God. If you trust God, then everything else follows. If you trust him, then you will do what he commands regardless of the cost. If you trust in God then you will act accordingly. It is perhaps unfortunate that this simple concept of trust has been hidden by translating the Greek word for trust with faith. It is really trust. The word ‘faith’ has more the sense of a set of beliefs. That is not the main idea behind the Greek word that Paul uses. That is what Paul says: trust is the beginning and end of the Gospel. This applies whoever you are and wherever you come from. It is a great leveller. The university professor is not more qualified to have faith than the waitress in the local hamburger restaurant. The Jew is not more qualified than the gentile. All must have this faith, this trust, in order to please God.
If you ask God for something and you trust him that he has granted your request, then it will happen. But not everything can be asked of God in this way. If there were a rule that when we ask God for something, we get it, then we would be trusting in a rule, not in a person. We have no right to make demands. True trust doesn’t do this. And the fact is, that suffering in our lives is necessary, to prove who we are. If we always had only success in our lives, then success would not be success. It is only success when we know that failure was also possible. It is only suffering because we know that the suffering need not have happened. So our sufferings and our joys prove that we are real people. The more we experience of both, the deeper we become as human beings. That is why we should really be thinking of embracing our sufferings rather than seeking to avoid them.
When I say embrace, I don’t mean that we should look for suffering. That would not make sense at all. This is only normal for human beings. But in accepting our sufferings and going through them with courage and generosity, we can give God the glory. Anyone can be happy in success but it is in these difficult things that we can shake our fists and say, we are more than conquerors. One of my aims in life has been to prove that when God made me, he didn’t make a mistake, that heaven and earth can look at me and say, this was what creation was for. That in this world, the greatest beauty can arise. I say that now with confidence. It was all worthwhile. He did a great job making me. Thank-you!
So we shouldn’t really all the time be asking God to relieve us of our sufferings and to grant us success in this life. The things we trust God for are of greater value than our own self-centred concerns. Trust in God is not trust for anything. God is who he is, and if we trust him, it is because we trust who he is as the person he is, namely the righteous God, the God who defines love, the God who adopts orphans, the God who protects the oppressed. And of course, the God who sent Jesus, his own son, to die on a cross for us to prove that he also is real, that he also is willing to suffer the consequences of the life he created for us. That is why we can trust him at all.
I have had a fair share of those sufferings. From the cradle to the grave. And my third bout of cancer has got me in the end. But I have known God’s love in a measure more than equal to those sufferings. Especially in granting me a beautiful wife and four lovely children. It is also important to me that in spite of those sufferings, I have always thought of the world as something very good. I have always appreciated the richness of the world, both in nature and in other people. It is why I have spent a good deal of my time at the keyboard opposing those who suggest otherwise. And they come in all sorts of guises. Some mathematicians or philosophers for example might develop views that all their theories work perfectly and have a simple beauty about them but that the real world, in other words the physical world, never seems to quite live up to such perfection. They can then get the idea that there is something wrong with the world. The real world seems to them more like a salad sandwich. There is always a piece of lettuce that falls out or, if you try to poke it back in, out falls a prawn or an onion. My friends, let me tell you that the reason the world can’t be fitted into a set of beautiful equations is because it is alive. And things that are alive defy the rules that you try to impose on them. And the more you try, the harder the world defies you. That’s what life is. It is something that does its own thing. And you can’t predict it. And it forces you to respect it.
My concern is of course not with mathematicians and philosophers, who after all, are only doing what they do best and enjoy best. I only gave that as an example. It is those who claim to be Christian, who I have the most concern with. The Bible is clear: it says that God looked on all that he had made, and behold, it was very good. There are a great many Christians who oppose this simple statement. And they want to tell us that the world is bad, and indeed that we ourselves are bad. They have capitulated to their sufferings and sin and see only bad in them; instead of trusting in God through them and arriving at beauty, they trust in themselves and arrive at ugliness. Ugliness and destruction are always cheaper than beauty and creativity. They invent all sorts of complicated arguments and they throw hundreds of verses of scripture at you to prove this, in the hope that you will give up in the face of such complexity and just accept their conclusions. However, when you actually examine each of the scriptures they use, you will find that none of them whatsoever supports their point of view.
They also excuse themselves by saying that the world is fallen. That there was a fall. They blame it on a historical event. But what they are really trying to do is to get you to believe that what God thought about his own creation was wrong. They want you to think that it is not, very good, at all. They want you to think that the world is useless, imperfect and that we as human beings are also useless, valueless, and inept.
Why do they want you to believe this? I have asked myself this often. It is perhaps a combination of things. Their lack of faith in God makes them think that God has to be everything in order to be God. They can’t accept that man can be something as well as God being something. They can’t accept that man can create things as well as God creating things. In short, they can’t accept that we can be truly alive as well as God being truly alive. In their thinking there is no room for poor man. We can only be what we are if God determines it first. We can only be saved if God determines it first. And so on. This just arises from a lack of faith on their part in the love of God. For them, nothing we do has any value in itself. There are of course other reasons, but this is not the place to go into any details.
I want to be clear about this. Unless we believe that what we are doing has value in itself then we will never be happy. We will never be satisfied with our life. Unless we believe that we have intrinsic worth then how can we undertake such basic things as forming friendships, getting a job or raising a family? We find our greatest value in knowing that we are loved by God in Christ. For who we are. Remember that God loved us while we were still sinners. It was he who said, ‘I have come that they might have life and have life to the full’. This should not surprise us, since God is the author of life, and it is in coming to him that we find it. But the idea that everything we do, including all our choices, has already been mapped out for us, is not life. Life cannot be mapped out. That is what life is.
If you succumb to their teachings, you will only see yourself as a miserable, wretched, pathetic excuse for a being. I’m not exaggerating. This is what they themselves say. And when you pray, it won’t be so as to change God’s mind about something, because you are supposed to be inept and cannot have any influence on God at all. Your so-called prayers will only be for your own benefit. To make you yourselves feel better. And you will live in hope and hope alone that one day you will be saved and go to be with God. You will not have actual assurance from these teachings at any time, because assurance is not available for the inept and fallen. You will forever be wondering whether some intended action is right or wrong because the rules of conduct seem to conflict with each other, and the times when you had a vibrant relationship with God through the spirit, where you knew instinctively what was wrong and what was right without having to look up some external rule-book, are long gone by. And you will feel constantly indebted to the lords and teachers over you and all your prayers, like theirs, will be timid, beginning with ‘If it is your will Lord…’, instead of the bold prayers that the Christians of old prayed, ‘Give your servants power to preach the message of the kingdom…’ Every moment is a new moment. Unlike any that have gone before or been thought of before. Let God go with you in all these moments and may both he and you share them together. Find life, and don’t let go of it.
This is the only thing you've said so far that I instinctively take issue with. I say "instinctively" because I'm still digesting all of this and so don't want to be prematurely dogmatic.You see, true value is always intrinsic. No one has any right to declare value over anything.
Hi All, again.
In this post, I am going to try to answer Clete's question 'Is God Moral?'.
To begin with I will answer Clete's question:1. Why is it that some actions can be judged in terms of morality? Why do we think it right to judge actions at all?
Wouldn't a person who owns the chair, say the chair's creator for instance, have the right to say, "Don't sit in my chair."?
Assuming a "yes" answer to that question...
Does God not own us?
Therefore, using your thought process, wouldn't God have the right to say, "XYZ" is right and "ABC" is wrong?
Are you suggesting that no one is allowed to bring up any other position? Or perhaps that you do not believe there is any other logical alternative? Or perhaps further, that historically only these positions have ever been adopted? Not sure where you are going here. The views you cite seem to be restating the Euthyphro position. Your following quote seems also unargued. It seems to merely state a contradiction and give no explanation for that contradiction.There are only two positions related to the topic: voluntarism or necessitarianism.
Surely anyone reading the scripture will not fail to notice the satisfaction God has when he looked on all that he made and behold it was very good? Isn't this just obvious? When your man says 'God has nothing to gain from creating things, or from our praise or [sic] him', isn't he rather asserting the Platonic position than the Biblical one? God clearly had a lot to gain from creating the world because creating it the way he did was satisfying and it was satisfying because he had created something of worth.God has nothing to gain from creating things, or from our praise or him; God’s will is the reason why things other than God are, and itself has no reason. I am not denying that God’s will is for the good, or affirming that God has set up some arbitrary standard of goodness; but the Divine Nature stands in no need of any good to be got from creation. (p. 36)
The maker does have exclusive rights over all of them! That is, until he sells the ownership of the chair to someone else and then they have exclusive rights to the chair. Of course that doesn't mean that they can't allow whomever they like to use the chair but simply that they have the right to the exclusive use. In fact what they actually have the right to is the use or disposal of the chair in any way they see fit that does not harm another person. That's what it means to own it.I will continue answering point 1 of my previous post:
To begin with I will answer Clete's question:
What you are describing is more of a social convention than a universal right. There is no logical (universal) right accorded to the creator of an object to own it. That right exists only in societies. When you make the chair, you need to assert and publish your right over it in order to acquire the exclusive right to sit on it. You don't get the right merely by creating it. If this were so, then any joiner or woodworker who makes chairs would have exclusive rights over all of them.
You are on very shaky philosophical ground here. That is assuming I haven't missed the point, which is very possible.Once the chair has been made, it is intrinsically a chair, nothing can take that away. It has value as a chair and its value is not created by anyone declaring: 'this is my chair' or 'this is a chair'.
Ownership is a fundamental moral right, not a mere social convention. It is an ancillary of the right to life. Ayn Rand offers a very concise presentation of the basic argument...Sure social conventions allow ownership, it would be silly of me to deny that; and ownership is a great way to organise society because it makes our use of objects more efficient. It means that we can rely on that chair being available for me to sit on when I need. Ownership promotes stability and stability promotes growth. But none of this implies that this chair is not a chair until I say so. It is not the declaring that makes it what it is. It is intrinsically what it is or it is nothing at all. If I own a chair, I own something that is intrinsically a chair. Otherwise there would be no point in my owning it.
I agree with you that the goodness of the new creation was not so by fiat. It was actually good. I'm just not at all sure that you've established the notion that it was good merely because it existed.So when God creates the world, sure, he may assert ownership over it. But this doesn't change the fact that what it is is intrinsic to itself. In an earlier post I reminded you that when God made the world he looked at it and behold it was very good. He didn't look at it and declare that it was very good. It didn't become good by him saying so. It was good.
I still vaguely feel as though I've missed the point. I'm not at all certain that my objections are germane to your argument. I cannot see how what you've said so far leads to an objective morality. Perhaps it will become clear as you proceed.I hope this clears up your question and thank you for allowing me to clarify it.
Now the answer I have given so far is that things have value in themselves. Obviously our actions will have an effect on things that are valuable in themselves. However, I appreciate that this is only a partial answer because the question is about actions, not about things. So I am now going to state a similar premise to the first premise but which relates to processes instead of objects (things).1. Why is it that some actions can be judged in terms of morality? Why do we think it right to judge actions at all?
Clete: I think it was possibly a bit gauche of me to use ownership as an example. Just forget that, ok? The important thing is things have value in themselves. It is true that other values may arise but the principal worth of a thing is in itself. Your question about one and many is perhaps a more important and interesting question so I will address it when I look at part 2 of my treatment of morality. I'd also like to say to you that a lot of the doubts you raised have to do with how value is determined. I will discuss this when I answer question 2. Sure, certain thngs are only worth what people will pay for them. But that is not an issue of where that worth originates. If a thing does not sell at a public auction it is deemed worthless. Why? Because in itself it has no intrinsic value. (At least, not that can be translated in to money. A piece of furniture may be worthless to humans but quite valuable to a beetle. But the value to the beetle is still intrinsic to the piece of furniture.) I am not arguing that everything has value. I am arguing that value is intrinsic. I hope you can see the difference. This part one is not about how we ascertain the value of a thing or an action. It is about why things have value at all or why actions are capable of moral judgement at all.
For now, I need to move forward on part 1 and bring it to a conclusion. To remind you:
Now the answer I have given so far is that things have value in themselves. Obviously our actions will have an effect on things that are valuable in themselves. However, I appreciate that this is only a partial answer because the question is about actions, not about things. So I am now going to state a similar premise to the first premise but which relates to processes instead of objects (things).
The universe is open. And this means that every moment (successive state) in the history of the universe is a unique moment that arises solely (as a development) from the preceding moment.
This is tantamount to saying that each moment of the universe's history has its own intrinsic value. Another way of saying it is that nothing can predict or predetermine any state of the universe as a whole. If that were possible then it would mean that that particular state of the universe did not have its own value but was simply the outworking of some other principle. This is the part that you are going to have to get your heads around.
Of course Calvinists, Catholics, Arminians, Orthodox, all will disagree with this. I am not arguing the point. I am only stating it as a premise. It is really the same premise as the first premise but in another guise.
In the same way that the value of things cannot merely be declared but exists as intrinsic to the thing, so the value of any historical moment cannot be declared from outside it (for example by predicting it or inventing or discovering an algorithm by which the future state of the universe can be calculated or simply by determining by force of control what each successive state will be).
The consequence of this premise is that actions are irrevocable. The universe cannot be unwound to a previous point and then set to go off again. And not only that actions are irrevocable but actions contribute to the history of the universe. It is because the universe is real, (a succession of unique moments as stipulated above) that makes actions capable of value judgement. It is because the universe is real, that each moment is important for itself and it is this fact that makes actions moral.
Note 1: Please don't accuse me of being a process theologian. Read post 1 of this thread first. I won't answer anyone who makes this straw-man accusation. I already explained this many times elsewhere.
Note 2: Please distingush between the created world and the universe. The universe means everything that is real. It is because the world is real that morality arises. God is as much a part of reality as we are. If you disagree with this then you are stating that God is not real. Don't argue about this unless you are prepared to back up that point. God is real. We are real. All of reality = the universe. If you are thinking only of the universe as studied by astrophysicists then you are not thinking big enough. Lose your presuppositions now and come on a journey with me. Don't let astrophysicists squeeze you into their mould but be transformed by the renewal of your mind.
Everything that exists is real, DR! Even ideas are real in that they are real ideas. Your premise, if I am following you correctly, is that value is intrinsic to anything that is real because it is real and that moral judgments are made possible by this value.
How is this different than saying that something is moral because it exists?
Clete, ideas are not real. They are (or might be) representations of possibilities for reality. Dreams exist as dreams, sure. But the objects of dreams are not real. Imaginations exist as firings of synapses and electrical states in the brain; but these are only symbols that have no meaning except by agreement. They have a meaning only within the nervous system itself. I think you are falling into your own trap of one and many. Exactly the same principle applies to writing and images. The ink is there on the paper. That is real. But the meaning of the writing is a concept which only arises because of a social convention.
You miss the point. What is is. Whatever exists exists as it is and that existence is real. Ideas are ideas, dreams are dreams, chairs are chairs, people are people, God is God, etc.
Thus I ask you again, how is what you are arguing not the same as simply proclaiming that a thing is moral because it exists?
Even if you want to limit the discussion to things that exists ontologically, which is fine, I don't see how you're not saying that it is a thing's existence that gives it value and is therefore morally relevant.
What is the difference between one thing that has value and another that does not?I don't think I have ever said this. What I have said is that the value of a thing is intrinsic. I also don't think I ever said that things were moral. It is actions that are moral, not things. A thing may have no value at all (although I can't think of too many examples). But if that is so, then it is so because it has no intrinsic value, not because no one else thinks it has value.
I understand that you want to present this as an a priori presupposition to your argument but I, for now, don't buy it. I don't think value has any meaning at all outside of a thinking mind. Value is not a substance that makes up all or part of a thing, it is an idea. Something that has value to me can be perfectly worthless to you and vise-versa.The value that a thing has is intrinsic. It is not given. The value that a moment has is intrinsic, not calculated or determined. The state the universe is in is determined only by itself, not by anything external. This is why every moment has real value.
I don't see the need to accept the one if the other is rejected. Just because God does not arbitrarily assign value to things, whether they be objects, people or actions, does not necessarily mean that those things have value built into their nature. It's not at all or nothing proposition. A thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Whether the payment takes the form of money, devotion or your life's blood, it doesn't matter. Value, at least to some degree, is a matter of opinion.You have to see this in contrast to the Calvinists and other dualists who teach that the universe only has the meaning given it by God.
You've not yet established either of these two points.The Euthyphro dilemma presupposes dualism. Take away the dualism and the dilemma disappears.
Euthyphro's dilemma asks whether justice and goodness are arbitrary or whether they belong to the necessary and eternal truths about the nature of things. You've answered the latter, that they belong to the necessary truth about the nature of things.For Plato, (who, for those who don't know, coined the Euthyphro dilemma in the first place) the conceptual world was real and the actual world was subordinate. For Calvinists (and other Christian dualists), God is real and the created world is subordinate, i.e. it is not quite as real as God himself. This is why their doctrines are so full of paradoxes, Euthyphro's dilemma being only one of many. They want to tell us that man is responsible for his own sin and therefore God is just to punish most men in eternal unending torture, but at the same time they want to tell us that everything we do, regardless of our own will, is fully predetermined by God.
That would simply depend on what those things wereWhat is the difference between one thing that has value and another that does not?
Clete, if there were no thinking minds, we would not be discussing this. Everything that we discuss is an idea. The moment you put pen to paper.I understand that you want to present this as an a priori presupposition to your argument but I, for now, don't buy it. I don't think value has any meaning at all outside of a thinking mind. Value is not a substance that makes up all or part of a thing, it is an idea.
You already asked this and I already answered it. I can't keep repeating myself. Life is too short. Really.Something that has value to me can be perfectly worthless to you and vise-versa.
It seems you haven't listened to what I wrote before. Honestly, I do not have time to repeat myself.I don't see the need to accept the one if the other is rejected. Just because God does not arbitrarily assign value to things, whether they be objects, people or actions, does not necessarily mean that those things have value built into their nature. It's not at all or nothing proposition. A thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Whether the payment takes the form of money, devotion or your life's blood, it doesn't matter. Value, at least to some degree, is a matter of opinion.
Respectfully, no, I haven't. Again, I don't have time to keep repeating the same things. But one last time: the argument for morality is in two parts: 1) why some actions are judgeable as moral or immoral and 2) (Assuming 1) Where do the rules for making such judgements come from? So far, I am only answering question 1.Euthyphro's dilemma asks whether justice and goodness are arbitrary or whether they belong to the necessary and eternal truths about the nature of things. You've answered the latter, that they belong to the necessary truth about the nature of things.
The reason why it is a dilemma at all (in its modern form) is because the second horn implies that God is subject to judgement of his actions. This problem did not arise in the original dilemma because in the pantheon, the gods were inconsistent. Indeed, it was easy for Socrates/Plato to choose this second horn because it was assumed that all the gods were different and there was no issue with judging their actions. In my view, the dilemma posed was intended to show up the absurdity of the traditional pantheon. The modern form, has no need for this nuance. For Plato, the first horn automatically implied that morality was arbitrary because the gods within the pantheon were themselves inconsistent, and capricious. For us, it is harder because all of us would say that God was self-consistent. No one would argue otherwise.How have you not simply taken on one horn of the dilemma?
The very same horn Socrates took, by the way.
I hope you are not just assuming Bob Enyart's 'brilliant' argument. Otherwise we might as well have just begun with 'See BE' and just discuss that. For your information, I have a great deal of respect for BE and I agree that his argument has a lot of good points. But it also has weaknesses.If you want a brilliant solution to Euthyphro's dilemma you need look no further than right here on TOL. Bob Enyart's argument in Battle Royale VII is unassailable so far as I can tell. If you haven't already, you should read it.
Battle Royale VII Post 39
I had something else here originally so this might feel out of sequence but when I was going through fixing typos and rereading it all, something clicked.So let's recapitulate:
The value of things derives from their intrinsic nature, not from any external declaration or attribution.
This is the law of identity. A chair is not a computer, its a chair.I can't say to this chair 'Today you will be a computer for me.' The chair doesn't let me do that. Something within the chair prevents me from doing that, just as it prevents everyone else, including God. This is because the chair is real.
This is both the Law of Identity and the Law of Causality wrapped into one. A moment is what it is and it was caused by something following a logical sequence of subsequent events, it not arbitrarily created by something logically unrelated to its natural cause.The state of the universe at each moment of history derives solely from previous such states and is not determined externally, i.e. by some algorithm or coercive force. This is the same premise as the previous one, except that it applies to history (process) while the first applies to objects. Every moment is a moment unto itself.
You're saying here that it is because our actions cause certain effects that our actions can be judged, yes?This is why some actions (i.e. acts of conscious beings) can be judged.
This is the One and the Many Problem cropping up again. I just don't see how it has anything to do with the value of a thing nor how it relates to morality.Indeed, it is logically impossible to describe the totality of the universe either as a process or as a single moment. The universe doesn't let you do this.