Theology Club: The Body of Christ and the Dispensation of Grace

[surrender]

We are the gentiles

Well, not all of us.

and by Hebrews 11 faith we can have all the "fullness" now that we are willing to seek Jesus for. What "fullness" do you refer to?

Romans 11:25

In fact we are not necessarily going to die.

You mean because of the rapture?

Do you see Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 for today?

Not in the sense that we see them in the first century.

…to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
If one does not believe that the fullness requires Holy Spirit training to walk in ALL the meaning of sozo and you do not seem to,

Of course, we need the Holy Spirit. Why would you assume I’d think otherwise? This is a Christian board and I am a believer in Christ Jesus and what’s written in Scripture.

then there is not much chance of walking in the fullness so you have to come up with I'm OK, your OK.

I don’t need someone else to tell me if I’m okay or not okay. I have the Holy Spirit to tell me what I need to know.

The standard is not mine or yours but as I have pointed out the Bible's. You have given no scripture to indicate what I have said is normal Christianity is not.

I’m not saying it’s not normal. I’m also saying that if things don’t match up to exactly what you’ve experience that it’s abnormal.

Faith to receive and walk in what Jesus provided in His cross, trusting Him alone, is normal Christianity.

I never said it wasn’t.

It is amazing to me why anyone would think He is not ALWAYS willing and able to heal and all the rest included in salvation. Another bondage of man's religion which sadly you are promoting.

I never said Jesus wasn’t always willing and able to do anything. Where are you getting that? If you’re going to misrepresent me, there’s no need to continue this discussion.

There is no "future" for God. It is all present because God is spirit and does not exist in time.

This will be simple to resolve. Scripture, please.

Scripture teaches God always existed and that includes BEFORE He created time.

Scripture teaches that God always existed, but you’ll have to provide Scripture showing that God created time.

This has nothing to do with what I said to explain why God was not disingenuous in His statement to Abraham.

You quoted a Scripture of when Jesus explained that he prayed “out loud” for the benefit of his listeners (i.e. more evidence that he was Messiah). You are attempting to use this Scripture as some kind of parallel to your idea that God told Abraham “since you have not withheld your only son, NOW I know” for the benefit of Abraham. There is no parallel. God didn’t say “NOW I know” as evidence He was God. There is no benefit to Abraham. Being told he fears God doesn’t increase his fear—he already feared God enough to slay his only son! If God said “now I know” and it wasn’t really true that “now He knows,” He would have been being disingenuous.

 

[glorydaz]

No.

The Decalogue is not the "Eternal Law of God.":nono: In fact, the commandment regarding the Sabbath is one that was only for Israel as a covenant between them and God. And Paul writes that we can regard the Sabbath as just another day, because it is not part of this dispensation.

It isn't written in the conscience of man to not steal or kill? I think it is.

Love of God and love of neighbor are the Ten commandments...with a day of rest for man. Those sound like eternal commandments to me. Just as God rested on the 7th day of creation, the day of rest has been from the beginning, while the Jews were given added on ordinances for other reasons. Ex. 20:11 Heb. 4:10

 

[glorydaz]

For Israel and their earthly kingdom they stood to inherit.

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Do you keep what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23? Be honest.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

And you are not born again, as the Lord Jesus Christ describes in John 3. Nobody is but him. For now. Unless you are going to tell me you can vanish from sight, nobody knows where you went.

I believe that's talking about the effects that are seen when the wind passes through...just as the effects of the Spirit's indwelling are seen in the new man that has been created in Christ Jesus when we're born again...quickened into newness of life.

 

[Nick M]

I believe that's talking about the effects that are seen when the wind passes through...just as the effects of the Spirit's indwelling are seen in the new man that has been created in Christ Jesus when we're born again...quickened into newness of life.

You can't be serious. You can't tell where he came from or where he went. Just like the Lord Jesus Christ after his resurrection.

 

[Lighthouse]

It isn't written in the conscience of man to not steal or kill? I think it is.

And I disagree.

If it were so then no one would do either.

If it were so God would not have said that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.

Love of God and love of neighbor are the Ten commandments...with a day of rest for man. Those sound like eternal commandments to me. Just as God rested on the 7th day of creation, the day of rest has been from the beginning, while the Jews were given added on ordinances for other reasons. Ex. 20:11 Heb. 4:10

There is no day of rest commanded for those outside of the covenant with Israel.

And while the commandments, insofar as they are applicable to us, can be summed up in loving God and your neighbor, those outside of the covenant with Israel are not beholden to all the commandments in the Law, and not even all found in the Decalogue; not to mention as far as said Law is concerned those in the dispensation of the grace of God are not under it at all. We don't love god because we are commanded, but rather because He first loved us.

 

[Lighthouse]

Nick M-
I think I understand your point of view to be that the Body of Christ was a plan before the change of plan that brought about the dispensation of grace, and thus was the plan to be instituted eventually at the end of the 69^th week within the New Covenant.

Is that correct?

 

[Nick M]

The Body of Christ has always been planned. We know that. We don't know that he always planned people live outside the law. In fact, it is real hard to find that outside of Paul. So they can't be the same.

 

[lesjude]

Well, not all of us.

Romans 11:25

That is numbers/quantity not fullness in the sense of mature sonship which requires submission to Holy Spirit training.

You mean because of the rapture?

Yes and possibly before the rapture for some.

Not in the sense that we see them in the first century.

There is no scripture that differentiates and these things are happening now for some greater than the 1st century.

Of course, we need the Holy Spirit. Why would you assume I’d think otherwise? This is a Christian board and I am a believer in Christ Jesus and what’s written in Scripture.

I never implied you did not need him. Needing/having Him and submitting to his training in faith, holiness, and the death of the self life are two very different things.

I don’t need someone else to tell me if I’m okay or not okay. I have the Holy Spirit to tell me what I need to know.

You made a judgement that our experience was not normal Christianity indicating that for those that refuse training to walk in faith for God's promises provided in salvation are OK and normal. I am interested in your testimony of normal Christianity. The Holy Spirit states what is normal Christianity which I briefly outlined. Everything we live is taught in the Bible and practiced by the disciples. When these things were pointed out to me I wanted them and willing submitted to His training to experience them in my life.

I’m not saying it’s not normal. I’m also saying that if things don’t match up to exactly what you’ve experience that it’s abnormal.

Of course I did not mean every experience has to match exactly to ours to be normal. I carefully explained the areas that we experienced that are normal for every disciple. Here is the areas of normal again:
It is normal. You have to show me from scripture that it is normal Christianity to trust the medical system for health and healing, pay the legal protection racket called insurance to secure lives and property, go into bondage to borrow money for ANYTHING, not do Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18 at every opportunity, celebrate the heathen holidays, support, fight and kill in wars

I never said it wasn’t.

Yes, you did when you said our testimony was not normal Christianity.

I never said Jesus wasn’t always willing and able to do anything. Where are you getting that? If you’re going to misrepresent me, there’s no need to continue this discussion.

I never said you did say that. However I will ask you at this point do you believe it is ALWAYS God's will to heal, no exceptions, only conditions and the major condition is faith; and that His Grace and mercy enables us to meet all the conditions?

This will be simple to resolve. Scripture, please.

2 Peter 3:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Scripture teaches that God always existed, but you’ll have to provide Scripture showing that God created time.

God created everything from nothing:
Psalm 33:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
i.e. spoke it into existence
Time is directly related to the movements of the earth and moon. In that sense He created time and gave man the knowledge to measure it.
God is eternal without beginning or end and exists in a different realm then His created universe. This attribute or perfection of God expresses His complete transcendence (above or independent of) His creation including in respect to time. Time is real to God in reference to man because He created both.

You quoted a Scripture of when Jesus explained that he prayed “out loud” for the benefit of his listeners (i.e. more evidence that he was Messiah). You are attempting to use this Scripture as some kind of parallel to your idea that God told Abraham “since you have not withheld your only son, NOW I know” for the benefit of Abraham. There is no parallel. God didn’t say “NOW I know” as evidence He was God. There is no benefit to Abraham. Being told he fears God doesn’t increase his fear—he already feared God enough to slay his only son! If God said “now I know” and it wasn’t really true that “now He knows,” He would have been being disingenuous.[/

QUOTE]
John 11:41

New King James Version (NKJV)

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying.[a] And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
No, that was not what I meant. Jesus was being informational for us and His disciples about something he already knew, that God always heard His prayers. God was being informational about something He already knew to explain how He trains us and Abraham in Bible faith with trials. Haven't you trusted Jesus alone for the healing of your children and wife to death's door as part of Holy Spirit training in faith which is normal Christianity?

 

[glorydaz]

And I disagree.

If it were so then no one would do either.

If it were so God would not have said that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.

That no one obeys their conscience perfectly does not prove the law of God is not written in our conscience. Even Pharoah knew it was wrong to commit adultery with Abraham's wife. Right and wrong has been known by man from the beginning.

Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

There is no day of rest commanded for those outside of the covenant with Israel.

And while the commandments, insofar as they are applicable to us, can be summed up in loving God and your neighbor, those outside of the covenant with Israel are not beholden to all the commandments in the Law, and not even all found in the Decalogue; not to mention as far as said Law is concerned those in the dispensation of the grace of God are not under it at all. We don't love god because we are commanded, but rather because He first loved us.

Those who believe have entered into God's Rest...."another day" was spoken of for that very reason. This obviously includes the gentiles...because of FAITH. "We which have BELIEVED "do enter into rest...."

Heb. 4:2-3
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[lesjude]

Here is who Paul says makes up the local assemblies that make up the church or the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[a] one Spirit.

Here is what Christ said:
John 7:37-39

New King James Version (NKJV)
The Promise of the Holy Spirit

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing[a] in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Here is when the Holy Spirit was given:
Acts 2:4
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
So the church began in Acts chapter 2 not Acts 9. Paul was "following" Christ when he said the Holy Spirit set people in the church and the first church was the assembly at Jerusalem which Paul visited and took instruction from (Acts 15) on the basis of Peter's vision (Acts 10) and his own experience (Acts 15:2-5).

 

[surrender]

I never implied you did not need him. Needing/having Him and submitting to his training in faith, holiness, and the death of the self life are two very different things.

Are you saying I don’t submit to the Holy Spirit? Are you saying I don’t have the Holy Spirit? Let’s just get that out of the way right now.

 

[lesjude]

Are you saying I don’t submit to the Holy Spirit? Are you saying I don’t have the Holy Spirit? Let’s just get that out of the way right now.

I have no idea if you submit to or have the Holy Spirit. I do not know any of your testimony and you have not answered my questions about normal Christianity.

 

[surrender]

That is numbers/quantity not fullness in the sense of mature sonship which requires submission to Holy Spirit training.

What I’m saying is that since Israel did not accept God’s chosen Messiah for her, the complete fulfillment of the Acts 2 promises are for the future. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom. 11:25), the complete breadth and depth of the promises of Acts 2 will be realized.

Yes and possibly before the rapture for some.

Some are going to be resurrected or changed into their glorified bodies before the rapture? Scripture, please.

There is no scripture that differentiates and these things are happening now for some greater than the 1st century.

Greater? And it never makes it onto the news? Why is that?

You made a judgement that our experience was not normal Christianity

No, I didn’t. I don’t know what my opinion matters, but there’s no reason for me to believe you don’t experience quite “normal” Christianity.

indicating that for those that refuse training to walk in faith for God's promises provided in salvation are OK and normal.

I never said it was okay to refuse training to walk in faith.

I am interested in your testimony of normal Christianity.

I’m sorry but I don’t see why it matters. Everyone has different experiences with God. It’s a relationship.

The Holy Spirit states what is normal Christianity which I briefly outlined.

It doesn’t say “this is normal” and “this is not normal.” I’m not saying your experiences are abnormal. I’m saying that others’ experiences are normal even when they don’t match your experiences. There is nothing in Scripture that says, “This is abnormal Christianity.” Sure, there are things that Scripture clearly opposes, but that doesn’t mean it qualifies for “abnormal Christianity” it means, “Don’t do it!”

You have to show me from scripture that it is normal Christianity to trust the medical system for health

No, I don’t. You have to show me from Scripture that it’s abnormal. Besides, why is Paul telling Timothy to trust in a substance for Timothy’s stomach ailment rather than telling him to trust in healing that comes from prayer?

pay the legal protection racket called insurance to secure lives and property,

God asks us to obey the laws of the land if it’s not sin. It’s illegal to drive without insurance in many places. Do you drive a car without auto insurance? Is it illegal where you live? You can’t own a home without insurance in most places. It’s illegal. Do you own a home where it’s legal to go without home owner’s insurance? Do you rent a home where the owners have insurance? If you do, I guess you better move into a mobile home. But, wait, you’ll still have to have insurance according to the laws of the land. I guess you could live in a tent and move around from place to place.

go into bondage to borrow money for ANYTHING

Where does Scripture say you can’t borrow money? My son just borrowed $10 from me and I want to know if it’s being insubordinate to the Holy Spirit.

celebrate the heathen holidays,

I don’t know any Christians who celebrate heathen holidays.

support, fight and kill in wars

I do know Christians who support, fight and kill in wars. I believe Scripture opposes this.

Yes, you did when you said our testimony was not normal Christianity.

Where did I say that? Quote, please. And for the record, to be very CLEAR, I have no reason not to believe you experience “normal” Christianity.

I never said you did say that.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

However I will ask you at this point do you believe it is ALWAYS God's will to heal, no exceptions, only conditions and the major condition is faith; and that His Grace and mercy enables us to meet all the conditions?

It’s ALWAYS God’s desire to heal, no exceptions. Prayer through faith is THE most effective conduit to healing. But I also believe the forces of darkness are real and at work to thwart God’s will. We see an example of this in Daniel 10 where we read that Daniel had been praying for revelation when an angel appears to him and says, “From the first day that you set your heart on understanding and on humbling yourself before God, your works were heard, and I have come in response to your words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia" (Daniel 10:12-13). Forces of darkness are always working against us and God, and prayers can go unanswered as a result.

2 Peter 3:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This doesn’t say there is no future for God. And it doesn’t say God does not exist in time. It tells us what God’s experience of time is “like.”

God created everything from nothing:… i.e. spoke it into existence

I agree.

Time is directly related to the movements of the earth and moon.

You’re talking about the measurement of time, here, not the creation of time.

In that sense He created time and gave man the knowledge to measure it.

No, it doesn’t say He created time. God measured time for our benefit.

God is eternal without beginning or end

I agree.

and exists in a different realm then His created universe.

Well, He is spirit.

This attribute or perfection of God expresses His complete transcendence (above or independent of) His creation including in respect to time.

He is totally transcendent to His creation. But time isn’t a creation. It’s simply a word that describes the reality that existence is sequential.

John 11:41

New King James Version (NKJV)

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying.[a] And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
No, that was not what I meant. Jesus was being informational for us and His disciples about something he already knew, that God always heard His prayers. God was being informational about something He already knew to explain how He trains us and Abraham in Bible faith with trials.

Jesus didn’t say anything similar to “NOW I know” something I didn’t previously know. In what way could Jesus have been possibly disingenuous in that situation? There is no way possible. It’s not relevant to the text at all. So, sorry, there is no parallel.

Haven't you trusted Jesus alone for the healing of your children and wife to death's door as part of Holy Spirit training in faith which is normal Christianity?

I don’t understand your question. I trust God alone for everything. That doesn’t mean I don’t wake up and eat food for nutrition to sustain my body. Do you eat?

 

[lesjude]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lesjude View Post
That is numbers/quantity not fullness in the sense of mature sonship which requires submission to Holy Spirit training.

What I’m saying is that since Israel did not accept God’s chosen Messiah for her, the complete fulfillment of the Acts 2 promises are for the future. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom. 11:25), the complete breadth and depth of the promises of Acts 2 will be realized.

Please give scripture for what you refer to by "the complete breadth and depth of the promises of Acts 2 will be realized".
Quote:
Yes and possibly before the rapture for some.

Some are going to be resurrected or changed into their glorified bodies before the rapture? Scripture, please.

Enoch and Elijah
Quote:
There is no scripture that differentiates and these things are happening now for some greater than the 1st century.

Greater? And it never makes it onto the news? Why is that?

The "news" has no interest in going to where these things are happening. In fact even most "secular" news is not reported with much accuracy. Further those that are doing these things are about as interested as Jesus was in the publicity. I know when Jesus raised our still born daughter and the other similar experiences our family has had the media was the furthest thought from our minds.
One friend of ours has a ministry to over 350,000 Indians in local assemblies in remote areas of a nation. They have seen every part of the human healed or recreated and several hundred dead raised. In some of these areas the indigenous leadership require those chosen as elders to have raised the dead.
They also see similar healings and miracles as they minister on several continents.
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You made a judgement that our experience was not normal Christianity

No, I didn’t. I don’t know what my opinion matters, but there’s no reason for me to believe you don’t experience quite “normal” Christianity.

Oh.
Quote:
indicating that for those that refuse training to walk in faith for God's promises provided in salvation are OK and normal.

I never said it was okay to refuse training to walk in faith.

OK
Quote:
I am interested in your testimony of normal Christianity.

I’m sorry but I don’t see why it matters. Everyone has different experiences with God. It’s a relationship.

That relationship produces a testimony of Hebrews 11 faith, holiness and the death of the self life.
Quote:
The Holy Spirit states what is normal Christianity which I briefly outlined.

It doesn’t say “this is normal” and “this is not normal.” I’m not saying your experiences are abnormal. I’m saying that others’ experiences are normal even when they don’t match your experiences. There is nothing in Scripture that says, “This is abnormal Christianity.” Sure, there are things that Scripture clearly opposes, but that doesn’t mean it qualifies for “abnormal Christianity” it means, “Don’t do it!”

One area of normal Christianity is Hebrews 11 faith. That type of faith God says is required.
Hebrews 11:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
If you read all the examples in the chapter you will see the Holy Spirit curriculum for faith training. Hebrews 11:1 is the base line of all these example. The circumstances and specifics will vary but training is required in most if not all.
Quote:
You have to show me from scripture that it is normal Christianity to trust the medical system for health

No, I don’t. You have to show me from Scripture that it’s abnormal. Besides, why is Paul telling Timothy to trust in a substance for Timothy’s stomach ailment rather than telling him to trust in healing that comes from prayer?

To stop drinking unsafe water and drink wine is the same as doing drugs all of which are poison and harm the human body in any amount including aspirin! Doing what Paul told Timothy is the Bible condoning and sending Jesus' bride to the leading cause of death in the US i.e. medical science! If this is where you stand we really have no more to discuss on bible issues.
Quote:
pay the legal protection racket called insurance to secure lives and property,

God asks us to obey the laws of the land if it’s not sin. It’s illegal to drive without insurance in many places. Do you drive a car without auto insurance? Is it illegal where you live? You can’t own a home without insurance in most places. It’s illegal. Do you own a home where it’s legal to go without home owner’s insurance? Do you rent a home where the owners have insurance? If you do, I guess you better move into a mobile home. But, wait, you’ll still have to have insurance according to the laws of the land. I guess you could live in a tent and move around from place to place.

We carry the legal minimum of auto insurance but never collision insurance. There is no requirement for collision if you do not borrow for the vehicle. There is no state I know of that requires insurance on homes or property for owners or renters. Banks require insurance but we do not borrow to buy homes or anything else. We have had no health insurance in over 30 years. If it is ever required we will pay the tax penalty or do as the Lord directs.
Quote:
go into bondage to borrow money for ANYTHING

Where does Scripture say you can’t borrow money? My son just borrowed $10 from me and I want to know if it’s being insubordinate to the Holy Spirit.

I suggest you do your own study. You could start with the borrower is the slave of the lender and owe no man anything but to love him.
I suggest you train your son to believe Jesus to supply. However this is a family matter and quite different than institutional borrowing.
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celebrate the heathen holidays,

I don’t know any Christians who celebrate heathen holidays.

You know no Christians who celebrate Xmas and Easter? My, that is unusual.
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support, fight and kill in wars

I do know Christians who support, fight and kill in wars. I believe Scripture opposes this.

Yes, it does. What do you believe?
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Yes, you did when you said our testimony was not normal Christianity.

Where did I say that? Quote, please. And for the record, to be very CLEAR, I have no reason not to believe you experience “normal” Christianity.

You have indicated you believe it is normal to borrow money, take drugs and go to the medical system for healing. It is not. I do not know if you are water baptized as a believing adult in Jesus' name or speak in tongues Acts 2:4; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-6. If you are not then it is not normal Christianity.
Quote:
I never said you did say that.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

Quote:
However I will ask you at this point do you believe it is ALWAYS God's will to heal, no exceptions, only conditions and the major condition is faith; and that His Grace and mercy enables us to meet all the conditions?

It’s ALWAYS God’s desire to heal, no exceptions. Prayer through faith is THE most effective conduit to healing. But I also believe the forces of darkness are real and at work to thwart God’s will. We see an example of this in Daniel 10 where we read that Daniel had been praying for revelation when an angel appears to him and says, “From the first day that you set your heart on understanding and on humbling yourself before God, your works were heard, and I have come in response to your words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia" (Daniel 10:12-13). Forces of darkness are always working against us and God, and prayers can go unanswered as a result.

You did not answer my question. Of course they can be hindered but the answer to Daniel's prayer came. God's answer is always yes to one of His promises and is NEVER unanswered. You are saying that the devils have more power than God and can not just delay but stop healing?
Quote:
2 Peter 3:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This doesn’t say there is no future for God. And it doesn’t say God does not exist in time. It tells us what God’s experience of time is “like.”

Quote:
God created everything from nothing:… i.e. spoke it into existence

I agree.

Quote:
Time is directly related to the movements of the earth and moon.

You’re talking about the measurement of time, here, not the creation of time.

You cannot measure something if the basis for measurement does not exist.
Quote:
In that sense He created time and gave man the knowledge to measure it.

No, it doesn’t say He created time. God measured time for our benefit.

He created ALL things.
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God is eternal without beginning or end.

I agree.

Quote:
and exists in a different realm then His created universe.

Well, He is spirit.

And there is no time in the spirit realm.
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This attribute or perfection of God expresses His complete transcendence (above or independent of) His creation including in respect to time.

He is totally transcendent to His creation. But time isn’t a creation. It’s simply a word that describes the reality that existence is sequential.

God's existence is not sequential. He has no beginning or end. He just is.


Quote:
Haven't you trusted Jesus alone for the healing of your children and wife to death's door as part of Holy Spirit training in faith which is normal Christianity?

I don’t understand your question. I trust God alone for everything. That doesn’t mean I don’t wake up and eat food for nutrition to sustain my body. Do you eat?

If you do drugs and the medical system you have not trusted God alone for the life of a family member in a life threatening illness.
Please do not be obtuse.

 

[surrender]

Please give scripture for what you refer to by "the complete breadth and depth of the promises of Acts 2 will be realized".

There is no direct Scripture for it. There’s only historical evidence and the Apostle Paul’s explanation for the reality of Israel not receiving the promises in the first century. Since Acts 2 (i.e. Joel 2:28-29) was not realized as written and hoped for, one must conclude this conditional promise will be realized at another time in the future (unless one believes God will not follow through with His promises). Paul gives further insight when he proclaims that Israel has been hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Enoch and Elijah

So, just because they experienced a unique situation, you think that means believers today are experiencing similar situations? Who do you know that has not died and has been taken to God?

The "news" has no interest in going to where these things are happening.

Where are these things happening to a “greater” degree than in the first century?

I know when Jesus raised our still born daughter and the other similar experiences our family has had the media was the furthest thought from our minds.

Praise God! But if these “things” are happening to such a degree, it would be in the news at some point.

They have seen every part of the human healed or recreated and several hundred dead raised.

Where’s that? Can I get in contact with them? You can send me a private message, if you wish.

That relationship produces a testimony of Hebrews 11 faith, holiness and the death of the self life.

I agree.

If this is where you stand we really have no more to discuss on bible issues.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. You tell me. What did Paul mean by telling Timothy to drink wine for his stomach issues?

 

[lesjude]

Until you answer my direct questions I have no more to say on these issues.
http://www.freedom-ministries.us/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

 

[surrender]

Until you answer my direct questions I no more to say on these issues.
http://www.freedom-ministries.us/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

Wow, what a surprise. Shame on you.

 

[surrender]

One friend of ours has a ministry to over 350,000 Indians in local assemblies in remote areas of a nation. They have seen every part of the human healed or recreated and several hundred dead raised. In some of these areas the indigenous leadership require those chosen as elders to have raised the dead.
They also see similar healings and miracles as they minister on several continents.

After relating this to my family, my entire family would love to know what this ministry to Indians is. Perhaps my local Church would like to support this ministry, as well. What’s the name and contact info. of the ministry?

 

[Lighthouse]

The Body of Christ has always been planned. We know that. We don't know that he always planned people live outside the law. In fact, it is real hard to find that outside of Paul. So they can't be the same.

I've considered a similar view for some time.

That no one obeys their conscience perfectly does not prove the law of God is not written in our conscience. Even Pharoah knew it was wrong to commit adultery with Abraham's wife. Right and wrong has been known by man from the beginning.

I'm not saying that, at all. Of course we know the difference between right and wrong, at least on major issues, but only because we learn them; because they are taught us. we are not born with that knowledge, we must learn it. Preferably the easy way.

Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

And?

Those who believe have entered into God's Rest...."another day" was spoken of for that very reason. This obviously includes the gentiles...because of FAITH. "We which have BELIEVED "do enter into rest...."

1. The Lord is our rest.
2. There is no Sabbath commanded for those outside of Israel.

Heb. 4:2-3
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews was written to whom?

 

[lesjude]

Wow, what a surprise. Shame on you.

?