The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?

[Arial]

However, scripture does say that AFTER the 1000 years Satan will be released.
So the 1000 years it is speaking of cannot mean "all" of time.
It is speaking of Satan being released after 1000 years, so if it's not a literal 1000 years then how long is it after the reign of Christ does it happen?

A great curiosity to be sure, Satan being released a 1000 years after Christ's return and one of the things that has always puzzled me, and scared me a bit, frankly. That scripture, "If you think you stand be careful lest you fall," always comes to mind. Thank heavens I can trust God and not myself in that regard. I don't have time to look into it and post tonight but I am eager to do so in the morning. I think it has something to do with the 1000 year reign of Christ not being literal but representing an undetermined long period of time---this age--- but I haven't put it together yet. Otherwise we have a literal thousand years with Christ ruling and possibly the saved during what is called the Tribulation being the only ones on earth, while the dead in Christ are in heaven---and then after that another time period when Satan is released----and then the new heaven and the new earth. (This is why for a time I stayed out of Revelation. It has to be understood as something other than chronologically as a series of events. It is fascinating, this new look we are taking. P.S. I was just reading Ps 50 in my daily communion with God time. And even that I can connect to some of the principles we see in Revelation.

I don't buy into the "adoption" theory, but I leave my options open.

And where I depart from mainstream dispensationalist is that I do not believe Peter, James, and John were teaching another gospel.
Mainly because Paul says that if anyone teaches another gospel than the one he teaches it should be anathema.
I find it very difficult to believe that Paul would say that of the gospel Peter, James, and John were teaching.

I suppose that all depends on how a person is looking at adoption. What I mean when I say it, and what is my understanding of it, it simply means that as Israel was adopted by God, so are we. We are all aliens to His kingdom and His household because of our sin, and cannot dwell with Him. Anyone who comes into His kingdom does so through adoption---a legal term. So when the Bible tells us that the believing Gentile is adopted into Israel it is simply saying that God adopted us as His people and He would be our God, just as He adopted Israel as His people and was their God. He is our God and we are His people. That legal transaction of adoption is accomplished and sealed by the person and work of Jesus.

I agree. There is only one gospel. The same gospel for Jew and Gentile alike. And I know from scripture that Peter, James and John also preached the gospel to more than just Jews. They preached to whoever was there. Peter went to Cornelius and his household. But they did not travel as Paul did, spreading the gospel to the Gentiles. I think that had to do with what each was most suited to, and not any kind of separation between Jew and Gentile, and of course, by the direction of God. And in Revelation, John is writing to seven churches in Asia, man if not all, that Paul either established or visited on his travels.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree. There is only one gospel. The same gospel for Jew and Gentile alike. And I know from scripture that Peter, James and John also preached the gospel to more than just Jews. They preached to whoever was there. Peter went to Cornelius and his household.

I'm seeing the Gospel of the Kingdom being preached that requires faith and commandment observance (works). That isn't Paul's Gospel.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Matt. 23:
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Matthew 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

But they did not travel as Paul did, spreading the gospel to the Gentiles. I think that had to do with what each was most suited to, and not any kind of separation between Jew and Gentile, and of course, by the direction of God. And in Revelation, John is writing to seven churches in Asia, man if not all, that Paul either established or visited on his travels.

Those seven churches with works?

 

[Clete]

Nineveh didn't when God spared them.

Namaan didn't when God healed him.

Wow! Two one liners in one post! The substance and depth you bring to the discussion is truly breath taking!

So what is your point here exactly?

Do you believe that there was salvation for gentiles apart from Israel? Was Paul wrong when he told the Ephesians....

Ephesians 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.​

Clete

 

[chrysostom]

However, scripture does say that AFTER the 1000 years Satan will be released.
So the 1000 years it is speaking of cannot mean "all" of time.
It is speaking of Satan being released after 1000 years, so if it's not a literal 1000 years then how long is it after the reign of Christ does it happen?

Great question
-except-
it doesn't say "reign of Christ"

 

[Arial]

I'm seeing the Gospel of the Kingdom being preached that requires faith and commandment observance (works). That isn't Paul's Gospel.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Matt. 23:
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Matthew 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If there was one way of salvation (gospel) for the Jews and another for Gentiles, it would cause utter confusion as to how to be saved or whether one was, within a book that was given to bring salvation to all nations, and tribes, and tongues, and peoples. Not only that if what you say is true, one would expect that scripture would be absolutely clear on that, perhaps with a section "The Way of Salvation for Jews" and another "The Way of Salvation for Gentiles." And it is not. That belief only comes out of a particular way of interpreting scripture----a view that clear scriptures refute. Gentiles like Jews are to keep the commandments. Paul is constantly instructing and teaching Gentiles this in the same way that John and Peter and James are. Paul was just as Jewish as they were. Not all of John's, Peter's, and Jame's hearers were Jewish, not all of Paul's were Gentile, and keep in mind we are included those who hear. Therefore, if J, P and J are giving a different gospel for the Jews, how is it useful for those who are not Jewish and the same with Paul. Obedience (works) is required of all, but is the fruit of salvation, not the way to salvation.

Those seven churches with works?

Works are whatever we do. There are works in everyone's day to day existence. There are works----things being done---in every church. Some of the works those churches were doing Jesus was saying "Good job" to. It appears that here, in order to make it align with what you already believe, you use an extremely narrow meaning of "works" that is in no way justified or supported by scripture. It says nowhere in those passages about the churches that the works saved them. Their salvation can be assumed by us by the fact they are called by Jesus churches. The purpose of the direct instruction and warnings to them was to strengthen and encourage them to endure with confidence what was and what was to come.

 

[Tambora]

Wow! Two one liners in one post! The substance and depth you bring to the discussion is truly breath taking!

Yak yak yak.

So what is your point here exactly?

Do you believe that there was salvation for gentiles apart from Israel? Was Paul wrong when he told the Ephesians....

Ephesians 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.​

Clete

Do you believe Namaan was in God's favor?
I do.
And he was in God's favor even though he was not told he had to join Israel, was not told he had to be circumcised, and was not told to observe all the Torah laws.
He simply had faith that YHWH was the Most High God and returned to his country with that faith.
And Jesus uses Namaan as an example of being in God's favor.

 

[Tambora]

Great question
-except-
it doesn't say "reign of Christ"

Revelation 20:4.

 

[chrysostom]

Revelation 20:4.

it doesn't say "reign of Christ"

 

[Arial]

it doesn't say "reign of Christ"

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
7.When the thousand years or over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth---Gog and Magog---and gather them for battle.

Here we have two issues that I will address in detail in another post so as not to make this so long. But the issues are, off the top of my head and just looking at this scripture : what exactly does the binding of Satan mean and his being released and why do we have a literal thousand year reign of Christ and then a final battle that we have already seen in Rev 19?

 

[Arial]

There are four interpretive schools concerning Revelation.
Preterism (fulfillment of most of the visions occurred, from our perspective, in the past.)
Futurism (the visions of chs 6-18 will occur in a period of final crisis just before the second coming and lead up to the history consummating events of chs. 19-22.)
Historicism ( chs 6:1-!8:24 offerers a chronological outline of the course of church history from the first century (6:1) until the second coming (19:11) with the sequence of the visions and cycles of visions correlating directly to the order of the events or eras they symbolize..
Idealism (the visions of Revelation represent trends and forces, often spiritual and invisible that are engaged in the ongoing warfare of the kingdom of God with the devil's kingdom of darkness that continues between the victory won at the cross and His resurrection and His return.)

Within these are varying interpretations of the thousand year reign.
Premillennialism (the thousand years follow the second coming).
Amillennialism (understands the millennium to be a picture of the present reign of Christ and the saints in heaven, initiated by the binding of Satan. More on that as we get to it.
Postmillennialism (the kingdom of Christ and the church will experience will increase on earth before the second coming, particular in the areas of social and political influence.)

In the four interpretive schools of thought, a combination of these views is most likely closest to the truth. Anyone who claims to have the book of Revelation all figured out and set in stone, is kidding themselves. Not everything has been revealed to us by God, but everything we need to have revealed in order for us to understand what He is telling us and giving to us, and for His purpose, is revealed. That is also true with the book of Revelation.
@Tambora
In the following post I will be mostly focused on the amillennial/ idealism viewpoint and contrasting it somewhat to premillennialism/futurist view.

 

[Clete]

Yak yak yak.


Do you believe Namaan was in God's favor?
I do.
And he was in God's favor even though he was not told he had to join Israel, was not told he had to be circumcised, and was not told to observe all the Torah laws.
He simply had faith that YHWH was the Most High God and returned to his country with that faith.
And Jesus uses Namaan as an example of being in God's favor.

Answer the question, Tambora....

Do you believe that there was salvation for gentiles apart from Israel? Was Paul wrong when he told the Ephesians....

Ephesians 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

 

[chrysostom]

There are four interpretive schools concerning Revelation.

There is a good book on this:
Four Views

 

[glorydaz]

Yak yak yak.


Do you believe Namaan was in God's favor?
I do.
And he was in God's favor even though he was not told he had to join Israel, was not told he had to be circumcised, and was not told to observe all the Torah laws.
He simply had faith that YHWH was the Most High God and returned to his country with that faith.
And Jesus uses Namaan as an example of being in God's favor.

These verses come to mind.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

 

[JudgeRightly]

Rev1:4 John, to the seven churches in Asia.

Look into those seven churches in Asia that John is writing this letter to (this can be found within scripture) and then tell me it is written strictly to Jewish believers.

You realize that those seven churches are in what is modern day Turkey, right, called "Asia minor," right?

From a brief, cursory Google search, I found references to JEWISH settlements in AT LEAST FIVE of those cities. I'm sure if I did more digging (pardon the pun), I'd find references to the remaining two.

 

[glorydaz]

If there was one way of salvation (gospel) for the Jews and another for Gentiles, it would cause utter confusion as to how to be saved or whether one was, within a book that was given to bring salvation to all nations, and tribes, and tongues, and peoples. Not only that if what you say is true, one would expect that scripture would be absolutely clear on that, perhaps with a section "The Way of Salvation for Jews" and another "The Way of Salvation for Gentiles." And it is not.

There is one Gospel of Salvation...by grace through faith for Jews and Gentiles....during this church age, this age of Grace.

But that isn't the Gospel Jesus was preaching. He and the apostles were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom....which was God's Kingdom on earth where Jesus would rule on the throne. He was rejected and crucified instead.

Thank the Lord the Bible does not do what you suggest, because then man could make the Bible say whatever he wanted it to. This way we have to study and let the Holy Spirit give us insight.

The Jews were given the Law and were expected to follow it.
In fact the law was the schoolmaster that led people to Christ.
Now we are led by the Spirit and not bound by the commandments....that could only condemn us to death.

 

[Arial]

The millennial reign of Christ as presented in Revelation has produced much debate. Is it literal, and if so does it begin and what happens after? If the thousand years is representative of a period to time, when is it and what comes after?

Rev 20 is where we see this millennial reign mentioned. We see in verses 1 and 2 an angel coming down from heaven, seizing the dragon, that ancient serpent who is Satan (the dragon identified, the serpent identified, as used in scripture) and Satan being bound for a thousand years, so that he cannot deceive the nations any longer, and at the end of this thousand years, he will be released for a little while. Then we see dead martyrs and those who had not worshiped the beast come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years. We see that the rest of the dead come to life after the thousand years. We see this called the first resurrection and we see another term in this same brief discourse---the second death. And the statement that those who the second death has no power will be priests of God and Christ and will---reign with Him for a thousand years.

We come to the end of this thousand years and see Satan released and will again come out to deceive the nations. He comes to gather the nations at the four corners of the earth, referred to as Gog and Magog, to battle. After the battle, then Satan along with the false prophet are thrown into the pit, tho defeated forever. Which places this final battle after the thousand year reign of Christ and the saints IF the thousand years is literal.

The things then we need to look into then are: the millennium itself, the first and second resurrections, the first and second death, what it means that Satan was bound and released, what is God and Magog. I will present the view of the idealist/amillennialist, and contrast it where necessary with that of futurist/premillennialist.

From the premillennialist view the thousand years is a literal thousand years. From the amillennialist understanding, it is the time between Christ's resurrection and His second coming. Therefore the churches John was writing to were in that time period, as are we. The visions all depict ongoing trials and tribulations that the church faces, rather than a separate series of judgments or cycles. They parallel each other in many ways and each leads to the Second Coming. They are also echo the plagues of Egypt. They are each presented from a specific perspective, including the perspective within the spiritual realm Christ is reigning in the hearts of believers on earth and those in heaven are reigning with Him.

There is ample Biblical support for this view. First there is the use of the number one thousand. Numbers in the Bible are meaningful, just as every word is, and it is within scripture itself that we find their meaning. They can, when understood, bring a new depth in the handiwork of God. We see it used for example in Psalm 90:4; 2 Pet 3:8; Deut 7:9; John 23:10; Ps 84:10, when it is obviously not literal but . It can mean a great multitude or a predetermined time or period of time that God chooses.

Then we have those scriptures that only and always present two "periods of time." This age, (now) and the age to come, (the new heaven and the new earth.) The last days, (the time between His resurrection and His second coming) and the last day, (the day of His appearance.)
Acts 2:17 And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will por out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy---
Hebrews 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom also He made the universe.
1 Cor 15:22-24 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruit, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Thess 4 13-18 paying attention to "that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord.

@Tambora


This is getting too long so will cover the binding and releasing of Satan and the rest in another post.

 

[Arial]

You realize that those seven churches are in what is modern day Turkey, right,

Why yes, Yes I do. ??????

From a brief, cursory Google search, I found references to JEWISH settlements in AT LEAST FIVE of those cities. I'm sure if I did more digging (pardon the pun), I'd find references to the remaining two.

You can actually get most of that information from the Bible by reading, particularly Acts and the travels of Paul. Also my study Bible gives me that information in book preludes and verse notes. Which may not be as reliable as google but it works for me. I am quite sure there were Jewish believers in those churches, and I never said there weren't. I simply said they weren't exclusively Jewish which is the claim that was made.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Why yes, Yes I do. ??????

You can actually get most of that information from the Bible by reading, particularly Acts and the travels of Paul. Also my study Bible gives me that information in book preludes and verse notes. Which may not be as reliable as google but it works for me. I am quite sure there were Jewish believers in those churches, and I never said there weren't. I simply said they weren't exclusively Jewish which is the claim that was made.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song: "Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Revelation 10:10
So I took the small scroll from the angel's hand and ate it; and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned bitter.

King James Bible
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

 

[Clete]

Why yes, Yes I do. ??????

You can actually get most of that information from the Bible by reading, particularly Acts and the travels of Paul. Also my study Bible gives me that information in book preludes and verse notes. Which may not be as reliable as google but it works for me. I am quite sure there were Jewish believers in those churches, and I never said there weren't. I simply said they weren't exclusively Jewish which is the claim that was made.

Actually that claim was not made. The claim that was made is that the letters to those churches were to members of the Kingdom (i.e. those who came to Christ during the previous dispensation). Had Jesus wanted to address Paul's converts, He'd have sent the letters through Paul.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I am quite sure there were Jewish believers in those churches, and I never said there weren't. I simply said they weren't exclusively Jewish which is the claim that was made.

The problem is, again, as Clete has pointed out, that John, the author of Revelation, along with Peter and James, agreed to go ONLY the Circumcision (Israel), while Paul went to the uncircumcision (Gentiles).

Thus, the literal opposite of what you said is more likely, which is that there may have been some gentiles in the churches, but they would have been primarily Jews/Jewish believers.

In short, scripture contradicts your claim. History contradicts your claim.

That's two witnesses. Scripture says two or three witnesses to establish a matter.