The Separation of Church and State Begins Within

[PureX]

I happened upon this comment on Facebook, today, from someone I don't know, but thought it both insightful and true … and apropos to some members of TOL.

"The reason religious fundamentalists have so much trouble understanding separation of church and state is simple: they cannot separate secular and religious activities in their own lives.

Whereas a religious moderate understands that church is a religious activity while football (for example) is not, the religious fundamentalist makes no such distinction. For him, every waking activity from dawn till dusk is religious.

I even knew a religious fundamentalist once who said he would lay hands on his car and ask for God's protection to make it run better.

This is a fine example of a person who does not know how to separate the secular (auto maintenance) from the religious. Personally, I think it makes more sense to stick to a regular preventive automotive maintenance schedule, but that's just because I'm not insane. If you ever spend real time with a really hard-core religious fundamentalists, you'll pick up on this right away: there is no religious downtime for them. There is no part of their lives where they put down the Bible and act like everyone else. If someone cannot understand separation of secular and religious activities in his own personal life, how could he ever understand it in politics?" -Michael Wong

I think this fellow makes a significant observation. And I have seen examples of this obsession with religion often here on TOL: it is reported in the news that some famous person has died, and immediately a debate begins about whether or not they went to hell. Someone asks a question about some contemporary political event or issue, and immediately receives a slew of Bible quotes. Someone asks a question involving physical or mental health, and immediately receives a slew of Bible quotes. And so on, as though the Bible were the only book ever written, containing the only information any person would ever need to resolve any possible problem they could ever possibly have.

It is quite absurd, and quite insane. And I don't recall anyone ever bringing it up, before. So I am.

Let the Bible quotes begin! :chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

This is why it is very important that the first impression of a believer to unbelievers is that he is thoroughly rational. Grounded in reason. When he is going to talk about same sex marriage it is because, all things being equal, it truly is because it is better for a child to grow up with both gender parents. It is not just because there are Bible verses by themselves.

Dr. Middelmann, of L'Abri Fellowship, put it this way in PRO-EXISTENCE (which btw is not about abortion; at least I don't recall that being one of the subjects):

“My perception stands in a system of coordinates (including the Bible in his ‘list’)… All of these are controls on each other, so that together they provide me with a view of reality that is more accurate than any one of them or than my perception of any one alone.”
--U. Middelmann, Pro-Existence, 1974
(M. Sanford emphasis)




His list included the Bible, wide experience, history, experience from a wide range of people, etc.

The talk host Dennis Prager (.com) is excellent on this question. He does not quote passages to explain something, but totally practical arguments. If you just look into 3 of his 5 minute videos at his "university" you'll see the same emphasis by guest speakers.

 

[Interplanner]

At the same time, the poster must realize one of the sharpest-edged quotes of the signers of the Constitution: "This document requires that the populace be reverent or godly; in fact, it may actually be destructive if they are not."

 

[Zeke]

I happened upon this comment on Facebook, today, from someone I don't know, but thought it both insightful and true … and apropos to some members of TOL.



I think this fellow makes a significant observation. And I have seen examples of this obsession with religion often here on TOL: it is reported in the news that some famous person has died, and immediately a debate begins about whether or not they went to hell. Someone asks a question about some contemporary political event or issue, and immediately receives a slew of Bible quotes. Someone asks a question involving physical or mental health, and immediately receives a slew of Bible quotes. And so on, as though the Bible were the only book ever written, containing the only information any person would ever need to resolve any possible problem they could ever possibly have.

It is quite absurd, and quite insane. And I don't recall anyone ever bringing it up, before. So I am.

Let the Bible quotes begin! :chuckle:

Yet I would bet you can't leave home without your ID/slave certified citizenship floating in the sea of commerce, mentally programmed just like the fundy in your own way, and a property/stock of Caesar's system.

 

[PureX]

This is why it is very important that the first impression of a believer to unbelievers is that he is thoroughly rational. Grounded in reason. When he is going to talk about same sex marriage it is because, all things being equal, it truly is because it is better for a child to grow up with both gender parents. It is not just because there are Bible verses by themselves.

Dr. Middelmann, of L'Abri Fellowship, put it this way in PRO-EXISTENCE (which btw is not about abortion; at least I don't recall that being one of the subjects):

“My perception stands in a system of coordinates (including the Bible in his ‘list’)… All of these are controls on each other, so that together they provide me with a view of reality that is more accurate than any one of them or than my perception of any one alone.”
--U. Middelmann, Pro-Existence, 1974
(M. Sanford emphasis)

His list included the Bible, wide experience, history, experience from a wide range of people, etc.

I agree that it's wise to test information against other information, which means we would need a broad range of information to determine the greater accuracy and usefulness of the information we hold true. Unfortunately, however, religion often becomes the tool of authoritarianism, which then seeks to eliminate and discredit any and all contrary or non-supporting information. And thus promotes the deliberate ignorance of such as "faith". The result of which is that the adherents to these authoritarian religions become very 'stunted' in terms of the breadth and depth of their understanding of anything but their own religious dogma, while they become antagonistic toward anyone who 'dares' to be curious about new information or skeptical of the adherent's religious dogma.

All in all they become very ignorant, unpleasant people; blinded by their own unquestioned self-righteousness.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

...Let the Bible quotes begin! :chuckle:

Matthew 17

24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? 25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? 26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.​

We live in the world, but we are not of the world.

Luke 16

8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. 9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.​

Amen.


DJ

1.0
​

 

[PureX]

Yet I would bet you can't leave home without your ID/slave certified citizenship floating in the sea of commerce, mentally programmed just like the fundy in your own way, and a property/stock of Caesar's system.

How do you perceive this as relating to the subject of the thread?

 

[PureX]

We live in the world, but we are not of the world.

What does that even mean?

 

[HisServant]

What does that even mean?

It means that we endure the rules and regulations and economic hardships that any government imposes on us. We also endure the media and popular culture. But these things do not define us.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

We live in the world, but we are not of the world.

What does that even mean?

It means that we endure the rules and regulations and economic hardships that any government imposes on us. We also endure the media and popular culture. But these things do not define us.

More or less.

The world can be thought of as idolizing money/gold. Sometime's, in order to get along in the world, you have to deal with money, even as a Christian. Dealing with money in and of itself, all other thing's being equal, is neither "Christian" or anything else, for the vast majority of circumstance's and scenario's. When they're is a conflict between what an idolater of money would do, and what a Christian would do, we should choose to do what a Christian would do.


DJ

1.0
​

 

[TracerBullet]

When he is going to talk about same sex marriage it is because, all things being equal, it truly is because it is better for a child to grow up with both gender parents.

Someone grounded in reason would recognize that this is an unsupported claim.

 

[HisServant]

Someone grounded in reason would recognize that this is an unsupported claim.

Reason would dictate that is the norm but does not apply in all cases.

 

[PureX]

It means that we endure the rules and regulations and economic hardships that any government imposes on us. We also endure the media and popular culture. But these things do not define us.

We all endure these things. Who do you think is being defined by them?

 

[HisServant]

We all endure these things. Who do you think is being defined by them?

Idealists on both sides... define themselves by their political party and economic status.

 

[PureX]

More or less.

The world can be thought of as idolizing money/gold. Sometime's, in order to get along in the world, you have to deal with money, even as a Christian. Dealing with money in and of itself, all other thing's being equal, is neither "Christian" or anything else, for the vast majority of circumstance's and scenario's. When they're is a conflict between what an idolater of money would do, and what a Christian would do, we should choose to do what a Christian would do.

Do you really think everyone who is not a Christian is an idolator of money, or power, or sex, or violence, or fame, or whatever? And that no Christians are? If so, your bias has completely usurped your honesty, and your reason.

 

[PureX]

Idealists on both sides... define themselves by their political party and economic status.

A few do. But do they define their whole world by what they believe? Because that's what this thread is about. It seems to me that it's only the religious zealots that do that. Also, be careful about who is doing the defining. It's easy to define other people through our own ignorance and bias.

 

[HisServant]

But do they define their whole world by what they believe? Because that's what this thread is about. It seems to me that it's only the religious zealots that do that.

The liberal left are just as much zealots as the religious right is... except the left is a lot more vocal and cruel about it and tries to shame the right instead of engage it.

It's why I am registered independent these days... both sides sicken me.

 

[Zeke]

How do you perceive this as relating to the subject of the thread?

Obsession being the point of pointing a finger at the fundy mentality that veils their mind, I just added another obsession that comes from the same systems mental programming you think you have imunity from.

 

[The Berean]

I happened upon this comment on Facebook, today, from someone I don't know, but thought it both insightful and true … and apropos to some members of TOL.



I think this fellow makes a significant observation. And I have seen examples of this obsession with religion often here on TOL: it is reported in the news that some famous person has died, and immediately a debate begins about whether or not they went to hell. Someone asks a question about some contemporary political event or issue, and immediately receives a slew of Bible quotes. Someone asks a question involving physical or mental health, and immediately receives a slew of Bible quotes. And so on, as though the Bible were the only book ever written, containing the only information any person would ever need to resolve any possible problem they could ever possibly have.

It is quite absurd, and quite insane. And I don't recall anyone ever bringing it up, before. So I am.

Let the Bible quotes begin! :chuckle:

This simply means that Michael Wong has no idea what it means to be a Christian or a true follower of Christ. We Christians believe that God exists and He created us. We worship Him because he is Holy. We beleive that God the Father sent Jesus Christ do die for our sins as a Holy sacrifice and that we have enternal salvation. We are guided by the Holy Spirit and the Bible is His revelation to us. Since we belong to God our lives are guided by him. It's not possible to be separated from Him. So this notion that we must leave out of our daily lives our "religion" or lead separare "religious" and secular lives out of our daily lives is just plain ignorance on the part of Michael Wong. Now, the bit about praying for a car is silly. But I think Michael Wong used an extreme example to make overgeneralizations. It's and old and obvious trick I see often. Ther is nothing in Michael Wong's post that is particularly thought provoking or insightful. He's just trying to use extreme example to rail against "religious fundamentalists", whoever they are.

 

[PureX]

The liberal left are just as much zealots as the religious right is... except the left is a lot more vocal and cruel about it and tries to shame the right instead of engage it.

It's why I am registered independent these days... both sides sicken me.

I wouldn't say I'm "sickened" by it, but I do believe it's a kind of sickness.