The Transcendental Argument for God

7djengo7

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Basing that presupposition on a declaration in the Bible is no different than basing one's life on the presupposition of Lord Voldemort in Harry Potter
You show yourself to be a self-defeating idiot by asking for evidence that the Bible is true WHILE, out the other side of your mouth, saying that the Bible is fiction. Rationally-thinking people don't ask for evidence that things they believe are fiction are true. Are you so stupid that you would go around saying "Do you have evidence that the novel, Harry Potter, is true?"

Bringing up works of fiction is never analogous to -- and is rarely, if ever, relevant to -- talking about the Bible. But, please, Professor, do tell us: to what "proposition" are you referring by your silly phrase "the presupposition of Lord Voldemort"? If you're not referring to any proposition -- a thing that is either true or false -- then you're not referring to any presupposition.
 

7djengo7

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Why do you always seem so angry?
Do you believe I'm angry, or are you just saying that? If you believe I'm angry, on what "evidence" is your belief that I'm angry "supported"? Or, are you just presupposing that I'm angry?

Do you believe I'm angry? Yes or No? If No, then what motivates you to say to me things like "Why do you always seem so angry?"

Saying "You seem angry" to someone in a text-based internet forum is kind of akin to saying to them "You seem to have a nice singing voice" or "You seem obese".
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
@Avajs,

There is another, just as compelling, reason to reject atheism as false.

Atheists almost always embrace naturalism. Meaning that they believe that everything that exists can be explained solely by natural causes and laws, without any supernatural influence; that all reality is ultimately physical and that things like consciousness, morality, and reason emerge from material processes rather than from anything beyond nature.

Based on our previous exchanges, it's a pretty safe assumption to say that you are no exception; that you are a whole hearted naturalist and reject the notion of anything super-natural. If so, I invite you to consider the following...

If naturalism is true, then every thought we have is just the result of physical processes, nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain shaped by evolution. But if that’s the case, then our reasoning isn’t based on truth, but rather on just whatever physical causes happen to produce. That includes the belief in naturalism itself.

A belief isn’t valid just because something caused it. It has to be grounded in reason, as you yourself have stated. If all thoughts are determined by prior physical states, then conclusions are not discovered through logic but are merely produced by physical causal forces. That doesn’t just make reasoning unreliable, it destroys the very concept of rational thought altogether. Rationality itself disappears, and with it, any claim that the atheist has to a rational worldview.

If naturalism were true, we would have no reason to trust our own thinking. But we do trust our thinking! We recognize truth. We reason. But reason isn’t just a series of events, it’s a process of recognizing truth, independent of what physical causes may have produced in our brains. If our conclusions are determined by blind forces rather than grounded in actual truth, and there's no basis upon which they can they be accepted as true, which means naturalism itself collapses under its own weight. Naturalism cannot be true, because the very thing we use to evaluate truth, reason itself, could not exist if naturalism were correct.

Naturalism saws off the very branch it sits on. If we can reason at all, we must look beyond nature for an explanation. An explanation that the atheist has no means to even begin to look for because any attempt on their part to look for such an explanation would openly contradict their own worldview.

Now, Avajs, that’s two separate ways I’ve shown you that your worldview collapses completely. How many more will it take before you start to wonder if you’ve made a mistake?"

Clete


P.S. The above argument is my attempt to articulate what C. S. Lewis spent the first five chapters of his book, "Miracles" explaining.
 
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Avajs

Active member
@Clete Correct, I have seen no evidence of anything supernatural. other than the lion the witch and the wardrobe, I don't care what CS Lewis. wrote. The basis for everything is physics and chemistry, not some invisible god.
Perhaps you are right, our reasoning can lead us to accept things that are not true--case in point your insistence that you are correct in basing your life on the Bible and your god.
You are articulate but misguided.
 

Right Divider

Body part
@Clete Correct, I have seen no evidence of anything supernatural.
Yes, I understand that your eyes and mind are closed.
The basis for everything is physics and chemistry, not some invisible god.
Clete already explained to you why that does not work. You cannot reason without the laws of logic which are NOT physical.
Perhaps you are right, our reasoning can lead us to accept things that are not true--case in point
... YOU.
your insistence that you are correct in basing your life on the Bible and your god.
We don't "have a god". We simply acknowledge the one true God.
You are articulate but misguided.
You are hilariously misguided and not so articulate.
 

Avajs

Active member
Yes, I understand that your eyes and mind are closed.

Clete already explained to you why that does not work. You cannot reason without the laws of logic which are NOT physical.

... YOU.

We don't "have a god". We simply acknowledge the one true God.

You are hilariously misguided and not so articulate.
aww thanks for the feed back. you reason with your brain which is physical. And yeah, if i work at it i can be more articulate
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
@Clete Correct, I have seen no evidence of anything supernatural.
Yes, I knew that already.

other than the lion the witch and the wardrobe, I don't care what CS Lewis. wrote.
Neither do I, except that I don't want to be perceived as taking credit for someone else's ideas. It's the ideas that matter, not who wrote them. Do you care about ideas?

The basis for everything is physics and chemistry, not some invisible god.
This sentence does not connect with what came before or after it.

Still, you showing up to state it doesn't even begin to refute the argument that I've presented which proves it false. This claim of yours is now at the level of wishful thinking on your part. It's nothing more than blind belief, the very thing you think is true of Christians!

Perhaps you are right, our reasoning can lead us to accept things that are not true--case in point your insistence that you are correct in basing your life on the Bible and your god.
Stupidity! Vapid, shallow, nonsensical, idiotic, foolishness!

If all you're going to do is waste my time then just say so and I'll ignore you and save us both the time.

You are articulate but misguided.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Avajs!

This translates to:"You make a great argument, Clete! An argument that I neither have no answer for nor care that I have no answer for!"

The next time you tell someone that you base your life on reason and evidence, just remember that you're lying. You lie every time you make that claim, whether to someone else or to yourself. When you're laying in bed and your mind gets quiet and there's no one there to convince but your own self, know that your life is built on nothing but blind belief; that the very thing that you think is true and that you hate about Christians and Christianity is actually true of you! And just one, only moderately smart and practically anonymous Christian on the internet, is all it took to expose the fact that you have never actually based your life on reason and evidence, but only on the illusion of it. You sneer at faith while blindly trusting your own assumptions, your own authorities, your own unexamined biases. You claim to follow the truth wherever it leads, but the moment it threatens your comfortable illusions, you retreat, turn off your mind and descend into mealy-mouthed stupidity. And now, here you are, unmasked, cornered and exposed, not by some towering intellect, not by a team of scholars, but by one ordinary Christian who simply refused to let you hide behind empty rhetoric. The very thing you despise in others is the foundation of your own life, and deep down, you know it.
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
which part of your body reasons, what does the work?
Your answer would be the brain but the argument I've already presented proves that there's more to it. You ignoring the argument doesn't count as a rebuttal. Do you claim to base your life on reason or don't you, Avajs? If so, then on what basis do you ignore rational arguments that pertain specifically to the issues you are trying to argue?

The answer is that you do not base your life on reason but only pretend to do so.
 

Avajs

Active member
Your answer would be the brain but the argument I've already presented proves that there's more to it. You ignoring the argument doesn't count as a rebuttal. Do you claim to base your life on reason or don't you, Avajs? If so, then on what basis do you ignore rational arguments that pertain specifically to the issues you are trying to argue?

The answer is that you do not base your life on reason but only pretend to do so.
Well, thanks, have a nice life. Spend your time calling someone else a liar. Ignore the evidence all around you that your belief system is based on nothing. You do not have the courage to look at the real world but hide in the unseen.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Spend your time calling someone else a liar.
If you don't like being called a liar, then stop lying... it's pretty straightforward.
Ignore the evidence all around you that your belief system is based on nothing.
The irony is off the charts!

You are a total hypocrite!
You do not have the courage to look at the real world but hide in the unseen.
LOL... said by the one that is hiding FROM the unseen.
 

Avajs

Active member
Your answer would be the brain but the argument I've already presented proves that there's more to it. You ignoring the argument doesn't count as a rebuttal. Do you claim to base your life on reason or don't you, Avajs? If so, then on what basis do you ignore rational arguments that pertain specifically to the issues you are trying to argue?

The answer is that you do not base your life on reason but only pretend to do so.
What more than the chemistry and physics going on in your brain allows for you to think logically. Evidence please.
 
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