toldailytopic: At what point is a revolution justified? (what is the moral criteria)

[TomO]

Fixed that for you...lain:

Quite lain:

 

[Nick M]

At present there's absolutely no justification for a revolution asgainst the Obama administration. The tea partiers are just a bunch of pathetically ignorant, gullible and deluded people who have been mislead into believing that Obama is a communist dictator who is going to turn America into another communist dictatorship, which is ludicrous.
But there's about as much chance of this happening under Obama as Osama Bin Laden converting to Judaism and settling in Israel.
Mass hysteria against Obama has been fostered by conservative pundits such as Limbaugh,Hannity,Levin, Malkin, Beck and others .
And if such a revolution were to happen, it would merely create a right-wing totalitarian dictatorship little better than a communist one.

Whether there is rule by commitee or by one doesn't make it right or wrong, so stop with the nonsense. Neg rep for general stupidity and bearing false witness against right wingers.

 

[Nick M]

Effectual? Yes. Generally used wisely or well? No.

But I think that so long as the people have the power to "overthrow" the government through the voting process, armed rebellion just isn't justifiable. I could even argue that if the people haven't the will or the wisdom to wield their voting power effectively in the first place then they can't be trusted to revolt either.

Said another way, as long as the voters leagalize the making of Africans into property, then we should not go to war over such things.

 

[Katie]

give me liberty or give me death

did someone already say that?

Well, he wrote it. The mind behind this saying was truly one of the better extortionists too.

"Give me liberty or give me death" is like saying "Give me life or give me death." Either you have life or you do not exist to care anyway.

"Liberty identifies the condition in which an individual has the right to act according to his or her own will." Always there is choice except in death. Where there is choice, there is liberty. That most do not see this truth is because they have yet to liberate their own mind <--- and that can only be done one way. Psalm 19:7-11 KJV.

The founding fathers liberated their own mind so as to set them on a course that would result in the constitution of the US (truly Divinely inspired) ... and all this based on their own observation of the Law of God.

 

[MaryContrary]

Sounds like someone invented democracy to keep the revolutionaries pre-occupied. :chuckle:

Oh, I don't think that was accidental. They were revolutionaries themselves, after all.

Said another way, as long as the voters leagalize the making of Africans into property, then we should not go to war over such things.

This is a very good point.

 

[The Berean]

Consider Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King, Jr. They all advocated non-violent resistance to governmental malfeasance and immoral practices. They suffered personally and became role models for their followers. They put those in power and authority to shame. Eventually they effected significant changes for the better. peace, bybee

Huh? Mandela was a "terrorist". He commited many acts of violence against the South African. Madela was the leader of the Umkonto we Sizwe, the miltary branch of the African National Congress. This group was declared a terrorist organization bit the South African and American governments. Madela planned and led many bomb attacks againt th South African. Here is part of his opening statement he made at his 1964 trial.

Firstly, we believed that as a result of Government policy, violence by the African people had become inevitable, and that unless responsible leadership was given to canalize and control the feelings of our people, there would be outbreaks of terrorism which would produce an intensity of bitterness and hostility between the various races of this country which is not produced even by war. Secondly, we felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or to defy the Government. We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer violence with violence.

We can argue wheter Madenla was a "terrorist" or a "revolutionary" but he chose violence because he realized that non-violent resistance was not going to give black South Americans feedom. He fought and he was willing to die for his beliefs.

During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to the struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

It's interesting how Mandela went from "terrorist" to prisoner to "hero" to the President of South Africa over the course of his lifetime. He was captured in 1962 because the CIA tipped off the South African government to his whereabouts. Now if Mendala walks arounf in Americans he's hailed as a hero. Here is a quote from Newsweek

Mandela rightly occupies an untouched place in the South African imagination. He's the national liberator, the savior, its Washington and Lincoln rolled into one.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Said another way, as long as the voters leagalize the making of Africans into property, then we should not go to war over such things.

Got that backwards Nick, it was the slavers that rebelled.
It was peaceful legislation that started the process of limiting
and eventually abolishing slavery. That legislation was introduced
by a President that a majority of American's voted for, based on
the platform of limiting slavery, and a minority said "didn't represent
the people."

 

[The Berean]

Whether there is rule by commitee or by one doesn't make it right or wrong, so stop with the nonsense. Neg rep for general stupidity and bearing false witness against right wingers.

If I had a dime every time Nick neg repped Horn for general stupidity how wealthy would I be? :think:

 

[MaryContrary]

If I had a dime every time Nick neg repped Horn for general stupidity how wealthy would I be? :think:

I agree. Horn really needs to stop being so stupid. :nono:

But until then, I'll take some of that action! :thumb:

 

[Persephone66]

At what point is a revolution justified?

As Ronan Harris put it -

"When does enough become enough? When does 'No' have meaning?"

 

[bybee]

Okay

Okay

Huh? Mandela was a "terrorist". He commited many acts of violence against the South African. Madela was the leader of the Umkonto we Sizwe, the miltary branch of the African National Congress. This group was declared a terrorist organization bit the South African and American governments. Madela planned and led many bomb attacks againt th South African. Here is part of his opening statement he made at his 1964 trial.



We can argue wheter Madenla was a "terrorist" or a "revolutionary" but he chose violence because he realized that non-violent resistance was not going to give black South Americans feedom. He fought and he was willing to die for his beliefs.



It's interesting how Mandela went from "terrorist" to prisoner to "hero" to the President of South Africa over the course of his lifetime. He was captured in 1962 because the CIA tipped off the South African government to his whereabouts. Now if Mendala walks arounf in Americans he's hailed as a hero. Here is a quote from Newsweek

I am more interested in what happened after he was released from a 30 year prison sentence. Instead of resorting to violent vengeance he advocated non-violent protest to gain equality for African Tribal peoples who had originally possessed the land. And He was elected President by a majority of the people. This had to include significant numbers of white persons. bybee

 

[bybee]

What!

What!

Said another way, as long as the voters leagalize the making of Africans into property, then we should not go to war over such things.

I can't believe you said that Nick. If the government makes late term abortion legal should we not fight against it with all of our might? bybee

 

[MaryContrary]

I can't believe you said that Nick. If the government makes late term abortion legal should we not fight against it with all of our might? bybee

Nick was just arguing my position, not actually taking this position.

At least...I think. :shocked:

 

[bybee]

Thanks

Thanks

Nick was just arguing my position, not actually taking this position.

At least...I think. :shocked:

I was pretty sure that was the case because Nick is pretty clear about where he stands on things. And he is a bit sassy at times! And I like sassy...at times! peace, bybee

 

[serpentdove]

When does 'No' have meaning?...

This is why pitchforks were invented.

 

[serpentdove]

...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Christians should occupy positions in government (Gen. 42:6), pay taxes (Matt. 22:18–21), pray (1 Tim. 2:1–3), and obey (Rom. 13:1–7) but obey God first (Acts 5:29). Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1995). Nelson's quick reference topical Bible index. Nelson's Quick reference (262). Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

"Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." Benjamin Franklin :FrankiE:

 

[vnctblzn]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for April 16th, 2010 09:50 AM

toldailytopic: At what point is a revolution justified? (what is the moral criteria)

the answer to this question may be contingent upon whether you own a personal stockpile of nuclear weaponry in excess of that owned by the nation in which you reside.

 

[Persephone66]

This is why pitchforks were invented.

No, it's why the gun was invented. Preferably high calibre, fully automatic and belt-fed.

Pitchfork are for farming.

Christians should occupy positions in government (Gen. 42:6), pay taxes (Matt. 22:18–21), pray (1 Tim. 2:1–3), and obey (Rom. 13:1–7) but obey God first (Acts 5:29). Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1995). Nelson's quick reference topical Bible index. Nelson's Quick reference (262). Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

"Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." Benjamin Franklin :FrankiE:

I don't know about you, but I live in a country that has fredom of religion. That being said, it should not matter what the religion is of those occupying government. They should obey the wills and needs of the people first.

 

[serpentdove]

"No, it's why the gun was invented. Preferably high caliber, fully automatic and belt-fed. Pitchfork are for farming."

That's what I meant, farming. lain: My point is, the Tea Party movement is getting noticed. People have every right to peacefully protest. They'd like to throw the bums out at this point. Unfortunately, there are many bums right behind them.

"I don't know about you, but I live in a country that has freedom of religion."

You have that right because Christians founded this country. You are an atheist (against God). Others here identify themselves as agnostic (against knowledge). Fine. You have been given a free country by the blood, sweat and tears of others. I'm sure they would have preferred to die for the godly; but, so be it.

"[]I]t should not matter what the religion is of those occupying government."

Christians are fit to lead. They know God's heart. They ensure that his will is sought for our nation. We see what happens when the godless take over (Prov 29:2).

"They should obey the wills and needs of the people first."

We should seek God's will (Ex 23:2). When we don't, we head downward--which is where we are now.

 

[Lighthouse]

Unfortunately, there are many bums right behind them.

Isn't your bum always right behind you?