toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

[TruthSetsFree]

i believe Hell is forever

that's not to say it is EASY for me to believe that...

But it stands to reason that... If you spend your life defying (hating) God

you will not be with him in the next life...

and life without God

is ... hard to imagine...

no sunny summer days anymore

no joy of human freindship (not that i would know anything about that)

no espresso with cream and honey

But i guess i shouldn't make light of this....

 

[Timotheos]

That is weasel

The punishment is not eternal if it has an end.....the wicked are not punished for what they do but for what they are, why shouldn't they be? why should the wicked not be punished for being evil?

How is it "weasel"? If they are burnt to ash, how are they not punished?
They are punished by being burnt to ash.
Malachi, Chapter 4

Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.

But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves.

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”



Totten, Please explain to me why it is that you believe that being totally destroyed as a punishment is actually not a punishment. If being totally destroyed is not a punishment, what is it? A festival?

 

[chrysostom]

here is the question to ask these long suffering people

does God want them to suffer eternally
or
is there nothing God can do about it?

the answer is they want you to suffer eternally

 

[Totton Linnet]

Why do you think that the life we have is not the life we receive from Jesus Christ?

Why do you think that man is born dead? Where I come from babies are born alive. If they were dead, they wouldn't grow up to be men.

I agree that death is a state of being. It is specifically the state of being dead. It is not the state of being alive. Do you think that death means eternal life?

The verdict of death that comes upon the guilty happens at the last judgment. That is when those who have rejected Christ perish and never live again.

The life we have in our flesh the natural life is not the life we recieve when we are born again.

That man is born dead is biological fact, baby must be made to breathe... a smack on the bottom will suffice.

The point about death being an eternal state is what we are disputing. If what you say is true then why would the wicked be resurrected? and they are resurrected the bible says to everlasting contempt. They would just be left dead. If eternal does not mean forever in the case of the punishment then eternal would not mean forever in the case of life.

Those upon who the judgement is passed do not fall dead, they depart into everlasting punishment.

 

[Totton Linnet]

here is the question to ask these long suffering people

does God want them to suffer eternally
or
is there nothing God can do about it?

the answer is they want you to suffer eternally

It was the Lord who warned, did He do anything about it? I think He did plenty....but his message to the child murderer is not "go in peace, it will be well with you" live in debauchery and murder while children starve...there is no recompence.

Your "love" way empowers sin including abortion.

The honest way to stop people in their headlong rush is to warn.

 

[Angel4Truth]

That man is born dead is biological fact, baby must be made to breathe... a smack on the bottom will suffice.

Some of us need a lot of smacks

 

[Totton Linnet]

How is it "weasel"? If they are burnt to ash, how are they not punished?
They are punished by being burnt to ash.
Malachi, Chapter 4

Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.

But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves.

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”



Totten, Please explain to me why it is that you believe that being totally destroyed as a punishment is actually not a punishment. If being totally destroyed is not a punishment, what is it? A festival?

I think you have a light view of sin, I think I deserve to be punished, but God is merciful.

I think NOBODY can really evaluate the depth of what sin is.....what evil is it in a man in the fulness of his strength and vigour to brutalise and kill a child? when you think of the innocence and trusting of a little child to whom an adult is incredibly big...a child's whole nature is to trusting.

I can't even begin to understand it...I can't bear to read those stories, I weep unashamedly....the story of Anne Frank changed my life forever. But you say such cruelties will go unpunished. Your message will embolden people to sin for if all they have coming is to die...they will shrug their shoulders, their lives are awful anyway, death for them is almost a reward.

I am no hell-fire preacher...but we must tell the truth to men, we must aquit ourselves. And we must not lean to our own understanding.

I have certainly come to the conclusion that God is fully justified and He will be SEEN to be justified in eternal punishment. Wicked souls are no good for anything else...just LOOK and SEE what sin does to peoples souls....people become like hate machines.

 

[Timotheos]

Totten, why do you think I am saying that sin will not be punished? I am absolutely Not Saying That. Do you understand me? Sin will be punished with the most severe punishment possible, the very life of the sinner. Why are you continuing to say that you believe that I believe that sin will go unpunished? Aren't you reading my posts?
Sin will be punished by death for everyone who rejects the forgiveness Christ offers. Please repeat that last sentence back to me so I know that you read it.

 

[meshak]

here is the question to ask these long suffering people

does God want them to suffer eternally
or
is there nothing God can do about it?

the answer is they want you to suffer eternally

Who is "they"?

If you don't accept God, you will perish. don't put word more than what God says.

when you perish you don't live in lake of fire eternally. think about it how you guys have been so illogical.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Totten, why do you think I am saying that sin will not be punished? I am absolutely Not Saying That. Do you understand me? Sin will be punished with the most severe punishment possible, the very life of the sinner. Why are you continuing to say that you believe that I believe that sin will go unpunished? Aren't you reading my posts?
Sin will be punished by death for everyone who rejects the forgiveness Christ offers. Please repeat that last sentence back to me so I know that you read it.

The reason you are wrong is that [I am sure of this] people that commit gross atrocities have convinced themselves that there is no God, no calling to account. So your message to them is a confirmation that when they die they are buried and that is it.

There is a remedy for this unbelief, it is the power of the word of God which is the sword of the Spirit. Philosophy does not have the Holy Ghost watching over it to back it up...nor does a lie. When God's word is spoken in the power of the Holy Spirit He will back it up.

That's the old fashioned way of soul winning, I am not a hell-fire and damnation preacher....but I was confronted by a Glasgow razor boy once, he was waiting trial for slashing somebody's face...I heard him laughing about how a person's face had fallen apart. When he heard me speaking he said "You believe that book Judy [in Glasgow all females are Judy]...I told him I did, he said "ye believe in hell then?" I told him solemnly that I do.

His face drained and he leapt out of his seat, but instead of going for me..."Judy" is not a brave person, he fled out of the door. He found a christian brother and begged to be shown how to be saved. And he became a BEAUTIFUL christian. That's the Holy Ghost.

But what you are doing is telling a lie...God will never back it up.

 

[Lighthouse]

If only there were some instance in the Biblical record where a fire burned but did not consume...:think:...:idea:

Or something like Isaiah 66:24 or Mark 9:43-48

 

[Timotheos]

If only there were some instance in the Biblical record where a fire burned but did not consume...:think:...:idea:

So you believe that since that bush was not consumed, that nothing is consumed by fire? If only there were some way to determine whether sinners are completely consumed by the fire. Some scripture passage which tells what is left after the sinner is burnt by the fire. :think:...:idea: How about Malachi 4:1? “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them."
Hmmm, not a root of branch will be left. And you say that this fire fire which doesn't leave a root or a branch is just like the fire that left an entire bush unconsumed?

Or something like Isaiah 66:24 or Mark 9:43-48

If only there were some way of telling whether what was consumed by fire in Isaiah 66:24 was alive and conscious or dead...:think:...:idea:
We could read Isaiah 66:24!
And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

So the bodies that are burnt and eaten by worms are DEAD Bodies. :think:... :idea: So they are not alive in Hell! Wow! Maybe the Bible is right when it says "For the wages of sin is death".

 

[Timotheos]

The reason you are wrong is that [I am sure of this] people that commit gross atrocities have convinced themselves that there is no God, no calling to account. So your message to them is a confirmation that when they die they are buried and that is it.

Just so I understand, you believe that the wages of sin is not death but eternal torment in hell, because some people don't believe in God?

There is a remedy for this unbelief, it is the power of the word of God which is the sword of the Spirit. Philosophy does not have the Holy Ghost watching over it to back it up...nor does a lie. When God's word is spoken in the power of the Holy Spirit He will back it up.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gist of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Is the power of the word of God reaching you? Do you believe that the wages of sin is death, or do you still believe that the penalty for sin is eternal torture?

That's the old fashioned way of soul winning, I am not a hell-fire and damnation preacher....but I was confronted by a Glasgow razor boy once, he was waiting trial for slashing somebody's face...I heard him laughing about how a person's face had fallen apart. When he heard me speaking he said "You believe that book Judy [in Glasgow all females are Judy]...I told him I did, he said "ye believe in hell then?" I told him solemnly that I do.

His face drained and he leapt out of his seat, but instead of going for me..."Judy" is not a brave person, he fled out of the door. He found a christian brother and begged to be shown how to be saved. And he became a BEAUTIFUL christian. That's the Holy Ghost.

That is a beautiful story. Are you telling me that I should believe that God tortures people in hell forever because this person believes that God tortures people in Hell forever?
According to the Bible, The wicked will perish and will be no more.
Psalm 37:20 and Psalm 37:10

But what you are doing is telling a lie...God will never back it up.

No, I am telling you what the Bible says. If the Bible says that people go to Hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever, please give me the verse or verses that say this. In the meantime, think about this, the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. That is why I believe that the wages of sin is death. That's why I believe that the penalty for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life for those who accept Jesus Christ's death on the cross in their place.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Your definition of death is wrong that is what everybody tells you. There is the death of the body but the soul does not cease to exist. Man is spiritually dead because of sin and this will be the cause of his physical death....so your oft harping on those scriptures will not do.

The parable of Lazarus shows that the body dies but the soul of the wicked man goes to one place and the soul of the righteous goes to another place.

Jesus said that this is what Moses taught and all the prophets, He Himself taught it.....I'm not going to wrangle endlessly, if you won't be told you won't be told. God is well able to correct you.

 

[Timotheos]

Your definition of death is wrong that is what everybody tells you. There is the death of the body but the soul does not cease to exist. Man is spiritually dead because of sin and this will be the cause of his physical death....so your oft harping on those scriptures will not do.

The parable of Lazarus shows that the body dies but the soul of the wicked man goes to one place and the soul of the righteous goes to another place.

Jesus said that this is what Moses taught and all the prophets, He Himself taught it.....I'm not going to wrangle endlessly, if you won't be told you won't be told. God is well able to correct you.

No Totton, My definition of death is not wrong.
The soul does not remain alive forever in hell. Read Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die".

So your side's oft harping that the body dies, but the soul remains alive is not true. The Bible says that the soul dies. Jesus Himself said that the soul will be destroyed in hell (Gehenna).

You don't have to wrangle endlessly, just believe what Jesus said "The way is wide that leads to destruction (not eternal torture in hell)" and "Fear the one who can destroy (not eternally torture) body AND SOUL in Gehenna.

I'm sorry that this discussion is going the way you had planned, but your reasons for believing that sinners go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever are not biblical. First you told me that sinners are tormented in hell because death is not a punishment (when it clearly is), then you told me that the punishment for sin is eternal torment because some people don't believe in God.

Don't accept what people SAY the Bible says. Read it for yourself. If it says that the wicked will go to hell where they will remain forever being tortured, then that is true. If it DOESN'T say that, then it is not true. The Bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more. That wouldn't be true if the wicked remain forever in hell being tortured alive. Read Psalm 37:20 and Psalm 37:10

 

[resurrected]

If only there were some way of telling whether what was consumed by fire in Isaiah 66:24 was alive and conscious or dead...:think:...:idea:
We could read Isaiah 66:24!
And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

So the bodies that are burnt and eaten by worms are DEAD Bodies. :think:... :idea: So they are not alive in Hell! Wow! Maybe the Bible is right when it says "For the wages of sin is death".

i don't get it


where'd the fireproof worms come from? :idunno:

how come they don't die?

 

[resurrected]

and what's the point of having the dead bodies eaten by worms and consumed by fire for all eternity if they're unaware that it's happening? :idunno:

 

[resurrected]

and what kind of dead bodies are these that don't get consumed by the worms or the fire?

 

[Totton Linnet]

God is able to confirm the truth of His word, our job is to testify.

 

[Timotheos]

God is able to confirm the truth of His word, our job is to testify.

Here is more testimony from the word of God that the wicked are destroyed and not locked up in hell and kept alive being pointlessly and endlessly tortured alive:
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

My task is to repeat what the Bible says, not to convince anyone. God is able to confirm the truth of His Words, as you say.