toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Shasta
Well-known member
John 3:16 says God gave His son so that we should not "perish." The word "perish" in Greek does not mean "to be annihilated" so that it "ceases to exist" but rather to "come to ruin." I could say that in my last wreck my car was "annihilated" but it would be true only in a general colloquial sense. Actually my car still exists and is sitting, fully recognizable, in my front driveway. It has, however, been ruined and beyond my means to repair it. Because there are funds to pay for its repair it my car has remained immobilized in the demolished state it entered at the time of its destruction.
It MAY be that it is only in a state of pain that fallen people can ultimately retain the knowledge of the truth. I am thinking here of people who through suffering come to an awareness that they are irreparable sinners and cannot help themselves but then, but as soon as "the burner" is turned off they immediately revert back to self-deception.
Perhaps hell continually keeps the inner delusional kingdom of the Old Self in check, so pressing home the truth that it is forced to remain in a state of devastation. Perhaps without that continual input the "kingdom" of Self would repair its walls, and once again wrap itself in illusion and hoist the flag of rebellion. Nowhere in the universe should that be allowed not even in the imaginations of beings who have been sequestered and quarantined in a place where they can do no harm.
I am thinking about the example of Edom, a nation known for its pride and arrogance (Obadiah 1:3). Even after they were brought to ruin Edom still dreamed of rising again. The Lord said that he was set against them and would never allow that to happen (Mal 1:4). God resists pride James 4:5 which is the essence of Satan's own nature.
Hello.
What makes you think that the word that is translated "perish" in John 3:16 doesn't mean "perish"? I can read Greek and I assure you that ἀπόληται (apoletai) really does mean "perish", just as it is translated in every Bible translation.
Here is John 3:16 in the original Greek:
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
ἀπόληται is a form of the word ἀπόλλυμι which means to utterly destroy. If this were not enough, in John 3:16 perish is contrasted with "having eternal life". Someone who doesn't have eternal life will perish, their life will end because their life is not eternal.
Here's more proof from Psalm 9 that the wicked perish and are no more instead of being tortured forever in Hell as some people claim:
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.
This is very clear, the wicked are destroyed and are no more.
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.
This is very clear, the wicked are destroyed and are no more.
awesome job timmy! :first:
Most of you guys are looking in the wrong direction for the answer. The reason Hell is eternal is because our spirits are eternal, so wherever we end up is where we will be for all eternity.
"Heaven" is union with God.
"Hell" is separation from God.
Out spirits will live forever, so we will forever either be in union with God or separated from God.
"Heaven" is union with God.
"Hell" is separation from God.
Out spirits will live forever, so we will forever either be in union with God or separated from God.
"Our spirits will live forever", do you have a scripture reference for that? Can you show me where the bible says that the spirits of the wicked will life forever?
Have you read Ezekiel 18:4 "the soul who sins shall die"? They don't live forever?
Do you have something that you want to say to me?
Do you have any evidence that proves what I am saying is wrong?
Do you just want to make these childish remarks?
Why don't you post something that supports your position? I know that you don't agree with me, so either post some proof for your side, or go away.
zippy2006
New member
I believe in Hell.
C.S. Lewis did not support annihilationism. He believed in Hell, he believed the doors of Hell were locked from the inside, and he wrote a book called "The Great Divorce" that is central to the topic.
| 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. 617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12. |
C.S. Lewis did not support annihilationism. He believed in Hell, he believed the doors of Hell were locked from the inside, and he wrote a book called "The Great Divorce" that is central to the topic.
Shasta
Well-known member
I have met some sadistic hateful people but I do not recall meeting a person who is a Christian who relished the prospect of seeing unbelievers tortured in hell. If they did I would wonder about their relationship with God. Most Christians I have met who believe in hell take it very seriously and do what they can to prevent others from going. Perhaps they believe in eternal punishment not because they want it to be true but because they sincerely believe that is what the word teaches. Turn the argument around, do you look forward to the time when God will exterminate souls of sinners, dissolving their essences into nothingness (or however you imagine He disposes of them)? God does not delight in the death of the wicked no matter what their fate and neither should we.
People do not choose to believe things because they want it to be true or at least they should not. Truth is reality. It just IS no matter what anyone desires it to be. The word is truth but Solomon says we search for wisdom as for hidden treasure. Truth has to be mined by sound patient exegesis otherwise why study at all? Why not just determine from the outset that whatever the word says will be the closest approximation of my imagined wishes and then go with my gut feeling?
I am surprised that you have engaged in this sort of ad hominem attacks. You should know what it is like being on the receiving end having been attacked so many times yourself.
Shasta said:
I've met a sadist on this forum who claims to be a Christian, and he said that he will relish the prospect of seeing someone he thinks is an unbeliever being burned alive in hell.
I think the key to this is the scriptures.
I've shown verse after verse that shows that the penalty for sin is death, and the wicked will perish and be no more. Nobody yet has shown me a verse or any scriptural evidence that the wicked will go hell when they die where they will be tortured or tormented alive forever as long as they live while they are dead.
If the wicked really will be tortured alive forever in Hell when they die, why is the Bible so silent on this issue? Why didn't even one of the prophets or apostles say anything about it? It just doesn't make any sense that God would set up a place of eternal torture, and then not directly tell anyone about it. And if the penalty for sin is eternal life in hell being tortured, why does the Bible call that "death", "destruction", "perishing", "being no more", and "being burnt to ash and scattered in the wind".
I've shown verse after verse that shows that the penalty for sin is death, and the wicked will perish and be no more. Nobody yet has shown me a verse or any scriptural evidence that the wicked will go hell when they die where they will be tortured or tormented alive forever as long as they live while they are dead.
If the wicked really will be tortured alive forever in Hell when they die, why is the Bible so silent on this issue? Why didn't even one of the prophets or apostles say anything about it? It just doesn't make any sense that God would set up a place of eternal torture, and then not directly tell anyone about it. And if the penalty for sin is eternal life in hell being tortured, why does the Bible call that "death", "destruction", "perishing", "being no more", and "being burnt to ash and scattered in the wind".
awesome timmy!
They don't give prizes for sadism or you would win:
Since you are a Sadist, I really don't care what you think.
Why don't you go bother someone else?
if you "really don't care what (i) think", why are you bothered by me?
I am bothered by you because you are trying to be annoying, but I do not care what you think at all, because I have no respect for you at all. The reason for this is your sadism.
If you had anything worthwhile to say, you would have said it by now. You are only trying to be disruptive.
resurrected said:
If you had anything worthwhile to say, you would have said it by now. You are only trying to be disruptive.
Whatever.
I believe what the Bible says instead of your sadism:
Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.
1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.
2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.
3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.
4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."
Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).
5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.
6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.
7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.
8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.
9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.
11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.
13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.
15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.
16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.
17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.
18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?
19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).
24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.
25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.
26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.
27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.
30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.
31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.
33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.
34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.
35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!
36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.
37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,
38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed
40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed
41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.
42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.
43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.
44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)
47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.
48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.
49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.
50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.
51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.
52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6
53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.