toldailytopic: Large Hadron Collider: cool experiment or doomsday machine?

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koban

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Some fear this machine will cause an unstoppable reaction (like a black hole) that will eventually swallow up the earth and end reality as we know it.

Most people go to work and know that if they mess up they might get fired. These guys go to work knowing that if they mess up they might destroy the world.



Similar fears existed when scientists first split the atom - there was a very real fear that the first atomic bomb would ignite the atmosphere.

In fact, period newspaper accounts of the first automobiles approaching sixty miles an hour (and then again at 100 mph) had people expressing fears that dogs would lie down with cats, the end of the world would come and women would get the vote.

I guess one out of three ain't too bad. :darwinsm:
 

Flipper

New member
So, what exactly are these scientists trying to do with this thing?

Can anyone help me understand the purpose of the Hadron machine?

It will provide a critical milestone in our understanding of the fundamental nature of the universe as well as a confirmation of our understanding of subatomic structure for a couple of reasons:

1) It will confirm what we think we know about the nature of mass and where it comes from.

2) If found it will confirm the standard model of particle physics. So far, the standard model is extremely successful in describing the subatomic world and three of the four fundamental forces that underlie our universe. As it developed, various forces and particles were predicted and in every case, those particles and forces were eventually discovered as particle accelerators grew more powerful and detectors and analytical techniques grew more effective.

The only particle which has a fundamental place in the Standard Model and has so far not been detected is the Higgs Boson; it's the Standard Model's last big test and is a chance to confirm how well we really understand the fundamental structure of matter and the three fundamental forces covered by the Standard Model.

3) If they don't find it, it will be just as exciting from a physics perspective. It may require an extensive modification to parts of the standard model and what we think we know, and will provide some interesting new theoretical and research questions. For example, it may imply there are other fundamental particles we don't know about. At the very least, if it turns out that the Higgs Boson is only detectable at higher energies than CERN can turn out, it will require a some theoretical changes.

4) If they find it, it will be more evidence that gravity will probably never be reconciled with the Standard Model. The hypothesized graviton particle isn't part of the Standard Model and because it is massless, tiny, and incredibly weak in its interactions, there's no way it could ever be realistically detected. But gravitons are required in most versions of string theory, so it would make an interesting research area.

But it's a weakly interacting and heavy particle that decays incredibly quickly, so it requires a lot of energy to make enough powerful collisions to detect them in a statistically relevant way.

5) It might create mini black holes. Dude. Black holes are awesome.

stripe said:
That'd be an indivisible piece of matter, would it?

An "atom", as the term was originally intended.

As far as we know, that is.

Particle physics has a way of making the indivisible, divisible. Also, if these elemental particles are truly point particles, then gravity is not going be reconcilable with the Standard Model, even though a number of different theories separately predict or imply the existence of a graviton particle.

It's one of the questions that String Theory (if it turns out to be true) would tackle, based on the mathematical model that all of the current fundamental particles known or predicted by the standard model are made up of these hypothetical strings.

It's an interesting idea and would explain some of the more counter-intuitive ideas in particle physics (i.e. it makes sense that a particle can have mass but it doesn't really make sense that a particle imparts mass to everything else).
 

allsmiles

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I read something about scientists wanting to recreate conditions just after the big bang. I don't know anything about that really, but I did want to put it in the record that I'm rooting for a galaxy swallowing black hole :crackup:
 

Flipper

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Don't black holes expand as they suck in light and matter? How can they contain it?

Black holes grow in two possible ways - colliding with other black holes, and by slowing accreting mass from matter that is drawn in.

Light doesn't have mass, so any photons pulled into a subatomic black hole wouldn't increase its radius as black holes are primarily gravitational events.

The putative black holes that the CERN experiment won't create would be subatomic in size and therefore would have fantastically weak gravity and would also be highly unstable.

Most theoretical physicists who have expressed an opinion say that black holes will not be created at CERN.

Of those who think it is possible, the majority opinion seems to be that these tiny black holes would evaporate harmlessly in microseconds and in a burst of particles that would likely have a very unique signature in the detector. Black hole creation could only happen if some fairly tentative hypotheses were to be true, so it would be a very exciting event and important event, but not a damaging one.

There was one paper that suggested the evaporation could be very dramatic - dramatic to the tune of a 2-3 megaton explosion that is. But that won't end the world, it will just redefine a small part of the Swiss border.

Most physicists point out that particle collisions occur all the time in our upper atmosphere at energies far exceeding those of CERN, and we have yet to detect any nuclear airbursts.

So I'm not really all that fussed by the prospect of death by black hole.
 

Thunder's Muse

Well-known member
Black holes grow in two possible ways - colliding with other black holes, and by slowing accreting mass from matter that is drawn in.

Light doesn't have mass, so any photons pulled into a subatomic black hole wouldn't increase its radius as black holes are primarily gravitational events.

The putative black holes that the CERN experiment won't create would be subatomic in size and therefore would have fantastically weak gravity and would also be highly unstable.

Most theoretical physicists who have expressed an opinion say that black holes will not be created at CERN.

Of those who think it is possible, the majority opinion seems to be that these tiny black holes would evaporate harmlessly in microseconds and in a burst of particles that would likely have a very unique signature in the detector. Black hole creation could only happen if some fairly tentative hypotheses were to be true, so it would be a very exciting event and important event, but not a damaging one.

There was one paper that suggested the evaporation could be very dramatic - dramatic to the tune of a 2-3 megaton explosion that is. But that won't end the world, it will just redefine a small part of the Swiss border.

Most physicists point out that particle collisions occur all the time in our upper atmosphere at energies far exceeding those of CERN, and we have yet to detect any nuclear airbursts.

So I'm not really all that fussed by the prospect of death by black hole.



Wow! I'm impressed. Not only do you know your stuff but you can explain it simply enough that I can understand. Thanks Flipper! :D
 

The Berean

Well-known member
I read something about scientists wanting to recreate conditions just after the big bang. I don't know anything about that really, but I did want to put it in the record that I'm rooting for a galaxy swallowing black hole :crackup:

Some of TOL's more pontificating posters do that already don't they? :think:
 

Flipper

New member
I hope they start selling Black Hole key rings. Just think... a fully functional black hole in a little glass bubble in your pocket!

That would be pretty awesome although you might have some problems lifting your keys.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Black holes grow in two possible ways - colliding with other black holes, and by slowing accreting mass from matter that is drawn in.

Light doesn't have mass, so any photons pulled into a subatomic black hole wouldn't increase its radius as black holes are primarily gravitational events.

The putative black holes that the CERN experiment won't create would be subatomic in size and therefore would have fantastically weak gravity and would also be highly unstable.

Most theoretical physicists who have expressed an opinion say that black holes will not be created at CERN.

Of those who think it is possible, the majority opinion seems to be that these tiny black holes would evaporate harmlessly in microseconds and in a burst of particles that would likely have a very unique signature in the detector. Black hole creation could only happen if some fairly tentative hypotheses were to be true, so it would be a very exciting event and important event, but not a damaging one.

There was one paper that suggested the evaporation could be very dramatic - dramatic to the tune of a 2-3 megaton explosion that is. But that won't end the world, it will just redefine a small part of the Swiss border.

Most physicists point out that particle collisions occur all the time in our upper atmosphere at energies far exceeding those of CERN, and we have yet to detect any nuclear airbursts.

So I'm not really all that fussed by the prospect of death by black hole.

Good stuff Flipper. :up: Are you a scientist by training?
 

Flipper

New member
Wow! I'm impressed. Not only do you know your stuff but you can explain it simply enough that I can understand. Thanks Flipper! :D

It is my pleasure.

You should be aware that I'm a science enthusiast, and not actually any sort of a scientist, though. I like to read all I can about these things and it's always fun to talk about them, but I'm no kind of an authority.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
It is my pleasure.

You should be aware that I'm a science enthusiast, and not actually any sort of a scientist, though. I like to read all I can about these things and it's always fun to talk about them, but I'm no kind of an authority.

So you're not a really a scientist but you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? :think:
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Flipper... is it theoretically possible that a machine like the Hadron Collider COULD create a reaction (like a larger black hole) that couldn't be stopped and end the world? (just for sake of si-fi discussion) :D
 
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