Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B?

Ben Masada

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Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Gal 4:28, Oh can we enter into Sarah's womb and be born again physically like Isaac is thought to be? seems like a odd statement that believers are like Isaac if this means a physical birth!! oh well tradition trumps reason and the allegorical method that scripture is meant to be interpreted by.

I find no correlation of this text with the birth of Judah from Sarah. Gal. 4:28 is about the life contention born between Ishmael and Isaac which has had no end to this very day, and Paul used the case to exonerate Isaac from being of Sarah and replace him with Christians which by doing so, the Jews were relegated to the condition of Ishmael as Christians were concerned. The bottom line is that the whole text of Gal. 4:21-31 is the climax of Replacement Theology.
 

Ben Masada

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Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

I am afraid you did that. These are your assessments and conclusions.

Matthew 12:34b
For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Stop adding to the text. You better check yourself before you wreck yourself.

As I have said before, I believe 20% of the NT as worth learning something from. The other 80% is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. About the anointing of Jesus by Mary which is reported by all four gospels, one can be accepted as a fact and all the other three cases are only parts of the 80% of attempts at vandalizing the Judaism of Israel.
 
I believe the Bible is 100% worth learning from.

2Ti 3:16 — 2Ti 3:17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Very good WS! You have left me with only one way out. That the Simon the leper who was a Pharisee was not Lazarus since at that time lepers in Israel was a very common sight and, the shock at the anointing was about the value of the perfume that could be sold and the money used to help the poor. (John 12:3-11) True that Judas alone spoke but the shock was in the faces of all who were ready with a difference reason in cased asked.

Then, there is something else: To delete the case to have happened as a fact but of a later pious forgery interpolated to degrade the role of the Pharisees in Israel. That was very common among the Fathers of the Church when the Canon of the NT was organized.
Well, let's do a little textual criticism, and find out who was telling the truth, and who was edited after the fact.

Code:
Book           Who              What            Where                  Angry

Matthew      A woman       His head       Bethany, the        Jesus'
                                                           house of Simon    disciples
                                                           the leper

Mark           A woman       His head       Bethany, the        Some
                                                           house of Simon    people
                                                           the leper              (unspec)

Luke           A woman       His feet         The house of       Simon
                  who was a                          Simon, a
                  sinner                                Pharisee

John            Mary             His feet         Bethany,              Judas
                                                           and Martha
                                                           served

Mark is generally regarded as the earliest written gospel, and thought to omit many proper names for the purpose of not making those still living in Judea targets for retribution. Consistent with that expectation, very few names are given, with only "Simon the leper" being singled out.

Perhaps Simon wasn't a target. He was part of the Pharisee establishment, it seems. It also seems possible that the negative appellation "leper" could be a codeword denoting that he was not of the faithful, but rather a Pharisee.

Matthew is known to use the same source as Mark, but appears to be written to a Jewish audience, largely for the purpose of substantiating Jesus claim to being Messiah.

Anointing Jesus head (as opposed to feet) seems relevant here in light of Exodus 29:7. Remembering that Messiah means 'anointed,' it seems possible that this story was included in all 4 gospels, because it is meant to be the point at which Jesus was, in fact, anointed.

Luke was written later, by Paul's disciple, a Greek-Jew physician who fills in details (especially names) that the earlier gospels leave out. Here, Simon the leper has become Simon the Pharisee. Perhaps for Luke the title Pharisee was not as stigamatic?

Mary is not named in this account, and some critics have suggested that Paul's disciple Luke omitted her name from accounts out of jealousy or misogyny.

Lazarus is likewise absent from this account, and he appears in this gospel only in a parable.

We finally have a name for the person who was outraged - and it is Simon. This doesn't really add up.

Mark and Matthew appear to have hidden the outraged person's identity in their accounts. But they both named Simon elsewhere in their accounts.

John seems to be telling a completely different story from the others. He is the only one to name Mary, Martha, Judas, or Lazarus.

Lazarus in particular is displayed prominently, as being both from the area, and being "at the table" with the others. He is portrayed as an object of wonderment - "the boy who lived" - and we are told that the establishment planned to kill him along with Jesus. How would they know this? That seems like a gloss added later.

The outraged party is now Judas, who nobody had any reason to protect earlier, since he was purportedly dead.

Mary is named only here in John, and John does so several times, even adding it as an aside in other stories. John also portrays himself in his gospel as Mary's "son" and caretaker, so perhaps they shared some connection that compelled John to give her credit due but withheld in earlier accounts.

So, then... what is the true story? Who was Mark protecting? How much of this story is parable, or codewords?

Jarrod
 

Ben Masada

New member
Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Well, let's do a little textual criticism, and find out who was telling the truth, and who was edited after the fact.

Code:
Book           Who              What            Where                  Angry

Matthew      A woman       His head       Bethany, the        Jesus'
                                                           house of Simon    disciples
                                                           the leper

Mark           A woman       His head       Bethany, the        Some
                                                           house of Simon    people
                                                           the leper              (unspec)

Luke           A woman       His feet         The house of       Simon
                  who was a                          Simon, a
                  sinner                                Pharisee

John            Mary             His feet         Bethany,              Judas
                                                           and Martha
                                                           served

Mark is generally regarded as the earliest written gospel, and thought to omit many proper names for the purpose of not making those still living in Judea targets for retribution. Consistent with that expectation, very few names are given, with only "Simon the leper" being singled out.

Perhaps Simon wasn't a target. He was part of the Pharisee establishment, it seems. It also seems possible that the negative appellation "leper" could be a codeword denoting that he was not of the faithful, but rather a Pharisee.

Matthew is known to use the same source as Mark, but appears to be written to a Jewish audience, largely for the purpose of substantiating Jesus claim to being Messiah.

Anointing Jesus head (as opposed to feet) seems relevant here in light of Exodus 29:7. Remembering that Messiah means 'anointed,' it seems possible that this story was included in all 4 gospels, because it is meant to be the point at which Jesus was, in fact, anointed.

Luke was written later, by Paul's disciple, a Greek-Jew physician who fills in details (especially names) that the earlier gospels leave out. Here, Simon the leper has become Simon the Pharisee. Perhaps for Luke the title Pharisee was not as stigamatic?

Mary is not named in this account, and some critics have suggested that Paul's disciple Luke omitted her name from accounts out of jealousy or misogyny.

Lazarus is likewise absent from this account, and he appears in this gospel only in a parable.

We finally have a name for the person who was outraged - and it is Simon. This doesn't really add up.

Mark and Matthew appear to have hidden the outraged person's identity in their accounts. But they both named Simon elsewhere in their accounts.

John seems to be telling a completely different story from the others. He is the only one to name Mary, Martha, Judas, or Lazarus.

Lazarus in particular is displayed prominently, as being both from the area, and being "at the table" with the others. He is portrayed as an object of wonderment - "the boy who lived" - and we are told that the establishment planned to kill him along with Jesus. How would they know this? That seems like a gloss added later.

The outraged party is now Judas, who nobody had any reason to protect earlier, since he was purportedly dead.

Mary is named only here in John, and John does so several times, even adding it as an aside in other stories. John also portrays himself in his gospel as Mary's "son" and caretaker, so perhaps they shared some connection that compelled John to give her credit due but withheld in earlier accounts.

So, then... what is the true story? Who was Mark protecting? How much of this story is parable, or codewords?

Jarrod

IMHO, if there is some truth in this story, it might be with the guy who wrote the gospel of John. He identifies the woman with being Mary Magdalene, the sister of Martha and Lazarus up to her presence in the Calvary before the cross with her mother-in-law Mary and all the evidences of having been married to Jesus. Since Jesus was an Orthodox Jew, and for that could not be courted by more than his wife, the other translations were simply interpolations with the intent to demolish the credibility of the Pharisees. Hence, not worth credibility.

But, Jarrod, honestly, I pay homage to you for your work to produce this research so well organized with this post. Keep the good work.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

I believe the Bible is 100% worth learning from.

2Ti 3:16 — 2Ti 3:17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Me too. Only that we don't use the same Bible.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Doesn't sound like you use the Bible at all.

Why do you say so, because you find a hard time to refute me or because all you know of the Bible is from hear-say? At least I quote the evidences of my assertions. Have you checked them up? I don't think so since you only very seldom get back for some clarification.
 
Why do you say so, because you find a hard time to refute me or because all you know of the Bible is from hear-say? At least I quote the evidences of my assertions. Have you checked them up? I don't think so since you only very seldom get back for some clarification.
I say so because you have an undermined view of the authority of the Bible as evidenced by your 20% trustworthy rating of it.

So which cult are you following? Or are you a lone avenger?

Which version of the Bible do you advocate?
 

Ben Masada

New member
Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

I say so because you have an undermined view of the authority of the Bible as evidenced by your 20% trustworthy rating of it.

So which cult are you following? Or are you a lone avenger?

Which version of the Bible do you advocate?

Neopatriarch, I am a Jewish man and no other real Jew would agree with saying of the NT that 20% is worth believing as I do. Jews in general don't even allow a NT in their house, let alone to confess as much as I do. To me 80% of the NT is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. I don't follow cults. My way is the same as that of Jesus whose Faith was Judaism and that's not a cult but a major religion. As being a cult is concerned, rather Christianity is more akin to one. Judaism comes from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Christianity comes from Paul. (Acts 11:26) And for the version of the Bible, I advocate the whole of the Tanach. And, as the NT is concerned, only what is not anti-Jewish.
 
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Lots of Jewish men believe the Bible 100%. Dr. Michael Brown for example, the author of Jewish Objections to Jesus, and many others.

As I suspected you are not a Christian. If I only believed 20% of the Law, some might say I was writing my own Torah. I think you improperly characterize Paul's ministry. Your presuppositions will make it hard to see anything else.
Neopatriarch, I am a Jewish man and no other real Jew would agree with 20% being worth believing than I do. Jews in general don't even allow a NT in their house, let alone to confess as much as I do. To me 80% of the NT is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. I don't follow cults. My way is the same as that of Jesus whose Faith was Judaism and that's not a cult but a major religion. As being a cult is concerned, rather Christianity is more akin to one. Judaism comes from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Christianity comes from Paul. (Acts 11:26) And for the version of the Bible, I advocate the whole of the Tanach. And, as the NT is concerned, only what is not anti-Jewish.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Lots of Jewish men believe the Bible 100%. Dr. Michael Brown for example, the author of Jewish Objections to Jesus, and many others.

As I suspected you are not a Christian. If I only believed 20% of the Law, some might say I was writing my own Torah. I think you improperly characterize Paul's ministry. Your presuppositions will make it hard to see anything else.

Show me one and I'll tell you of how Christian he or she is. Dr. Michael Brown ceased being a Jew when he became a Christian. There is more than one way to quit being a Jew. That's when he or she decides to belong to a different religion. If you read I kings 18:21, the Jews who halted between Baal and HaShem, Elijah arrested 850 from the prophets of Baal among the Jews and executed them in the brook of Kishon. (I kings 18:19) It means that there is no hyphenated Jews. One is rather a Jew or a Christian.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Show me one and I'll tell you of how Christian he or she is. Dr. Michael Brown ceased being a Jew when he became a Christian. There is more than one way to quit being a Jew. That's when he or she decides to belong to a different religion. If you read I kings 18:21, the Jews who halted between Baal and HaShem, Elijah arrested 850 from the prophets of Baal among the Jews and executed them in the brook of Kishon. (I kings 18:19) It means that there is no hyphenated Jews. One is rather a Jew or a Christian.
Given only the two choices Jew or Christian, I will choose....secret option number 3!

Let's call me an Israelite! Born a Gentile, adopted to Abraham, but no son of Judah, and more a disciple of Jesus than Paul.

Jarrod (waiting for Ben's head to explode)
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
No. If they were the same why would there be two different inferences made in the scripture.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Given only the two choices Jew or Christian, I will choose....secret option number 3!

Let's call me an Israelite! Born a Gentile, adopted to Abraham, but no son of Judah, and more a disciple of Jesus than Paul.

Jarrod (waiting for Ben's head to explode)

And you came out a Christian after choosing the secret option #3. And now go as ask what you are talking about because I have no idea.
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

We are talking about Mary of Magdala and Mary of Bethany, who were known respectively as Mary Magdalene and Mary, the sister of Martha.

After the wedding in Cana of Galilee, Jesus had become much more than just a guest in Bethany. According to John 12, when Jesus returned to Bethany from perhaps some of his missionary trips with his disciples, he was hungry and they made him a supper. They who? Mary, Martha and Lazarus.

Since the supper was at their house, Lazarus would sit at the table with Jesus and his disciples, and Martha would serve the table. At the appropriate time, Mary brought a pound of costly perfume and started anointing Jesus' feet and wiping his feet with her hair. (John 12:1-3) Needless to say, it was quite romantic.

We all know that Jesus was an Orthodox religious Jew, and every Jewish woman knew and knows that she cannot approach a religious Jew, and is not even supposed to talk to him, let alone to touch or anoint him in such a romantic manner if she is not his wife.

I believe we have proved that Jesus was married to the sister of Martha and Lazarus. Now, was she the same as Mary Magdalene? Let's ask Luke. (Luke 7:36-40)

Luke adds a guest who perhaps was not familiar with Jesus' wife to criticize him for allowing a prostitute to touch and kiss him that way while she would anoint him with such a costly perfume. She had been a prostitute because that 's the name with which Luke calls her "a woman known in the town to be a sinner." (Luke 7:37)

Why would the Pharisee, a religious Jew criticize Jesus for allowing such a display of inappropriate behaviour? Because Jesus was also a religious Jew. Obviously, the Pharisee was not familiar with Mary's connections to Jesus.

Mark says in Mark 14:3 that she would anoint Jesus starting from his head. There is no way a religious Jew would allow such a thing if the woman was not his wife. And the anointing was made in the same place and Mark calls the host by the name of Simon, the leper. That's Lazarus by another name, since Lazarus was a leper.

Matthew also reports the same place at the house of this Simon the leper who is Lazarus. And Mary anoints Jesus starting with his head.

Conclusion: 1. Mary Magdalene and Mary, the sister of Martha were one and the same woman; 2. Jesus was a religious Jew who, to allow such an anointing by a woman, it's only obvious that they were married; 3. Now, to insist that Jesus was not married is to affirm that he was not Jewish, and much less a Rabbi. And to claim that all cases of anointing are four different cases with the purpose to safeguard the gospel writers from being charged with contradiction, it will be tantamount to expose Jesus to negative credibility charges for behaving as a "Don Juan." Therefore, it's much more to his sacred reputation that he was a married man to the sister of Martha, who was known as Mary Magdalene.
Your idea seems to me to be way too allegorical for a gospel account of Jesus's words and deeds.

I have trouble accepting your point, but let's understand that I am not attacking you or calling you stupid or heretical.

We all have a right to our own opinions--except maybe in a climate of literalism and fear of others.

We are different--that's all. Let's celebrate all the different interpretations on TOL. Every one of them enlarges the pool of human meaning and community.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

Was Mary M. the Same as Mary B.?

There are no contradictions in the scriptures. It is all verifiably truth.

Are you sure? Solve this one: In the same day of Jesus' immersion in the Jordan River by John the Baptist, he was taken to the wildness for 40 days where he was tempted by the devil to transform stones into bread, if you read the first three gospels.

Now, if you read the 4th gospel, on the 3rd day after leaving the Jordan, Jesus was getting married in Cana of the Galilee and being tempted to turn water into wine. Now, go ahead and explain the contradiction. (John 2:1)
 

Bright Raven

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Are you sure? Solve this one: In the same day of Jesus' immersion in the Jordan River by John the Baptist, he was taken to the wildness for 40 days where he was tempted by the devil to transform stones into bread, if you read the first three gospels.

Now, if you read the 4th gospel, on the 3rd day after leaving the Jordan, Jesus was getting married in Cana of the Galilee and being tempted to turn water into wine. Now, go ahead and explain the contradiction. (John 2:1)

Your premise is ridiculous. Granted, Jesus went to a wedding at Cana but not his own. Jesus was invited to the wedding as was his mother (See John 2:1-2).
 
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