ECT Water baptism commanded for the BoC?

[Lazy afternoon]

Water baptisms were tied to God's purposes for Israel; they were established for Israel. Every water baptism seen in the book of Acts was done while Paul was still trying to provoke Jews to jealously. All of them are seen prior to the final dusting off seen in Acts 28. AFTER THAT POINT, in his letters, we find no command, no description, no instruction for water baptism (we don't even see such in his earlier letters, either). Just like the miraculous sign gifts for the conviction of unbelieving Israel (1 Cor 1:22; 1 Cor 14:22) faded and stopped (2 Tim 4:20), so too Israelite water rituals became meaningless as all were counted in unbelief and national distinctions became meaningless. Identification with Christ by grace though faith without works was, and is now, everything. To add any form of water ritual back on top of that, for any reason, is to preach a false gospel.

John baptized Jesus to fulfill all righteousness.

Do you know what that meant?

LA

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Water baptisms were tied to God's purposes for Israel; they were established for Israel. Every water baptism seen in the book of Acts was done while Paul was still trying to provoke Jews to jealously. All of them are seen prior to the final dusting off seen in Acts 28. AFTER THAT POINT, in his letters, we find no command, no description, no instruction for water baptism (we don't even see such in his earlier letters, either). Just like the miraculous sign gifts for the conviction of unbelieving Israel (1 Cor 1:22; 1 Cor 14:22) faded and stopped (2 Tim 4:20), so too Israelite water rituals became meaningless as all were counted in unbelief and national distinctions became meaningless. Identification with Christ by grace though faith without works was, and is now, everything. To add any form of water ritual back on top of that, for any reason, is to preach a false gospel.

Good post

 

[heir]

John baptized Jesus to fulfill all righteousness.

Do you know what that meant?

LA

I do.

 

[heir]

Thus vs 16 is stating that no matter how bad, no matter how 'evil' one has been , if God can show mercy to Paul, they can ALSO receive mercy...

I see both Nick and Lighthouse are fielding 1 Timothy 1:16 with you. I leave it to them.

actually there are many 'local' churches but there is only one Church, the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, to which all the local churches belong.

Don't be silly. I was speaking of there being more than one church in the Bible as it seems that people get the wrong impression/taught wrong that there was only one and misapply that which was meant for another to themselves when they do so. There are three churches in the Bible. Moses' church in the wilderness Acts 7:38 KJV

The Lord's "my church" (Matthew 16:18 KJV)

And the church, which is His Body (Ephesians 1:23-24 KJV), which Paul filled up the sufferings of the afflictions of Christ in his flesh for

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

And then He joined it: Acts 9:17-18

No, he wasted it

Galatians 1:13 KJV

All scripture is indeed inspired by God, but the KJV is not a great translation, not least because its language in now antiquated and grows more so as English continues to morph the meanings of its words. You may want to reconsider it as your 'standard'.

You shouldn't try and talk people out of believing they have the pure and preserved words of the Lord (Psalms 12:6-7 KJV). The language is not antiquated, but perfect English and necessary/crucial for study (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). Get yourself one!

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.



I see, so you are hinging your whole fallacy that the Church that Christ built on Peter and the apostles (including Paul!) was to be 'cut down' and replaced on the word 'established' here in the KJV?

I do not believe in replacement theology. It's criminal. I believe that Israel fell, diminished and was cast away by the close of the Acts period for a reason and for a season. There is still much to be fulfilled (future) after the Body of Christ is caught up.

Again, context, context, context.
It is clear from the preceding verses that the Church in Rome was ALREADY established in Faith, in fact a faith that was 'heralded throughout the world.' Thus the translation that reads 'strengthened' here is a more appropriate rendering of the greek text.

No, the KJB nails it!

The Romans had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world

Romans 1:7-8 KJV To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Paul longed to see them that he may impart to them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established

Romans 1:9-12 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; :12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

So these Romans had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world, but but it was not the mutual faith of both Paul and them. Paul longed to see them that he may impart unto them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established that he may be comforted together with them by the mutual faith both of them and him.

I believe the Roman' faith was this, the gospel of God, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord (the WHO of Jesus Christ) and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Romans 1:1-4 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; :4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The spiritual gift that Paul wanted to impart unto them that they may be was Paul's "my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..."

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

These Romans had never heard the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)!

Romans 1:15-17 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


I've every reason to believe that the Romans became members of the Body of Christ (as I believe God foreknew them (Romans 11:1-2 KJV). They were "called to be saints" (Romans 1:7 KJV). Paul was sent to find those being called at that time (Acts 13:26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV). These would have been those to whom Paul was first sent. Israel had fallen (Romans 11:11 KJV), but they had not been cast away. There was a remnant at that present time according to the election of grace which God foreknew would believe (Romans 11:1-5 KJV). Throughout the book of Acts we see Paul gathering them into the Body of Christ.

That Jesus Christ is the Messiah of Israel, The Son of God who suffered and died for us, and for our salvation, and rose again to new life. In HIM we have the hope of eternal life!

Here is how John puts it:

John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.'

John 3:16 is about Isaiah 9:6 KJV not about what Christ did. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth! Romans 1:16-17 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. It is the WHY of the cross/the WHAT Christ did for us and it was a mystery hidden in the scriptures before Paul (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) and the fact that it would save people like you and me (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) was a mystery hid in God (Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV)! The gospel of Christ is the gospel you believe to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), baptized by one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV, Romans 6:3 KJV which is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 that we are to endevour to keep and the topic of this thread) and sealed unto the day of redemption (a guarantee of our inheritance/ no chance of being cut off Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:30 KJV).

 

[heir]

The Angels proclaimed it at the birth of our Saviour: Peace on Earth, Goodwill to (all) men!

That's not the gospel that is the power of Go to save you! Make sure you pay close attention to what is from my last post to you concerning the good news.


And people get angry when I ask them, "What is the gospel of your salvation?". SMH

 

[PhilipJames]

​

Hello heir,

. There are three churches in the Bible. Moses' church in the wilderness Acts 7:38 KJV

The Lord's "my church" (Matthew 16:18 KJV)

And the church, which is His Body (Ephesians 1:23-24 KJV), which Paul filled up the sufferings of the afflictions of Christ in his flesh for

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Why do you think that the Body of Christ is a different Church than the Lord's 'my church' of Matt 16:18

No, he wasted it
Galatians 1:13 KJV

If you think that Paul is saying here that he completely destroyed the 'my Church' of Matt 16:18 you have a serious dilemma on your hands. What did Jesus say? 'the gates of hell will not prevail against it'. So then, if Saul, while he was yet an enemy of the church was able to completely destroy it, you show Jesus to be a false prophet.

But, of course, that is NOT what Paul was saying. Did Paul lay waste to the Church in Jerusalem? Certainly, it was one of the first (if not THE first organized persecution of the Church. In fact Saul was on his way to carry that persecution to other places (which he could hardly do if he had completely destroyed the Church) when the Lord intervened personally in Saul's life.

and did he then join the Church?

1Gal 1:23 'they only kept hearing that "the one who once was persecuting us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."


KJV: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.'

Paul is preaching the SAME faith.

You shouldn't try and talk people out of believing they have the pure and preserved words of the Lord (Psalms 12:6-7 KJV).

Is that not, in fact, what you do when you don't like the version others are using?

The language is not antiquated, but perfect English and necessary/crucial for study (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). Get yourself one!

The language is perfect English? What is perfect English? You can go to different places in the world that speak English and find words that have very different meanings from one place to another and one time to another... What then is 'perfect English'?

Further, by what (or who's) authority, is the KJV held up as the standard? Jerome's vulgate was the standard in the west for a thousand years. Was that the 'pure and preserved words of the Lord'?

just so we're clear, I am NOT saying that one cannot find the Truth in the KJV (or any other translation), but that one must be careful to understand the intent of the words as written, rather than project one's own understanding onto them.

I do not believe in replacement theology.

What do you mean by 'replacement theology'

No, the KJB nails it!

The KJB says it just as I said it, assuming one knows how to read in context and so understand the 'perfect English' that you find there.

The Romans had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world

Indeed. and it is the same faith they had in Jerusalem that Saul once persecuted, and later preached.

Paul longed to see them that he may impart to them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established

established as in the sense of what? Begun? Obviously not, they had already been 'established'... no the proper sense here is that they may built up in their faith. (and that they to may build up Paul in his faith... 'be comforted together by the mutual faith)

So these Romans had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world, but but it was not the mutual faith of both Paul and them.

You clearly are trying to separate Paul from the Church, but you cannot because Paul is a member OF the Church. Of course Paul is talking about their mutual faith. Again you are reading something into the text that is, frankly, the opposite of what Paul is saying.

These Romans had never heard the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)!

That is a lie. And whoever taught you that, was propagating a lie, and whoever first suggested it. is a liar (and I know who that was).

Throughout the book of Acts we see Paul gathering them into the Body of Christ.

It not just Paul who is gathering into the Body of Christ, but all the apostles and those who were ALREADY together with them.

Why did Paul first go to see the other apostles?

John 3:16 is about Isaiah 9:6 KJV not about what Christ did.

You don't think God gave HIS only Son is about what Christ did? I see you understand John just as well as you understand Paul.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth! Romans 1:16-17 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. It is the WHY of the cross/the WHAT Christ did for us

and how is that different than 'he died for us and for our salvation in HIM we have the hope of eternal life'

the why.. for us and for our salvation, the hope of eternal life.' the what: died!

and it was a mystery hidden in the scriptures before Paul (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV)

Before Paul? Are you kidding? It is Jesus Himself who reveals that which has been hidden in the scriptures. It is to JESUS and to Faith IN Jesus that Paul is referring...

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 5: 39-40

How true this remains for so many today.

Peace!
PJ

 

[PhilipJames]

That's not the gospel that is the power of Go to save you! Make sure you pay close attention to what is from my last post to you concerning the good news.


And people get angry when I ask them, "What is the gospel of your salvation?". SMH

I am not angry... and the angels were indeed heralding the Gospel...

What does it mean 'goodwill to men' except that God was indeed reconciling the world to Himself ?

Peace!
PJ

 

[heir]

These posts are way too long to reply to, but here is what I did respond to.

Why do you think that the Body of Christ is a different Church than the Lord's 'my church' of Matt 16:18

That would be a long list. You have a lot of homework! Here's a good thread to start on things that are different. http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105573

If you think that Paul is saying here that he completely destroyed the 'my Church' of Matt 16:18 you have a serious dilemma on your hands. What did Jesus say? 'the gates of hell will not prevail against it'. So then, if Saul, while he was yet an enemy of the church was able to completely destroy it, you show Jesus to be a false prophet.

He persecuted those of "this way" unto the death and led the persecution even unto strange cities! They were scattered!

Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Acts 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Galatians 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

and did he then join the Church?

No, Paul's was saved for a different purpose (Acts 26:16 KJV) and he could not have been forgiven under the kingdom gospel and doctrine (Matthew 12:31-32 KJV).

KJV: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. Paul is preaching the SAME faith.

He preached the faith which once he destroyed: preached the who of Jesus Christ/the name Acts 9:4 KJV Acts 9:21-22 KJV, but that's not the gospel of Christ.

What do you mean by 'replacement theology'

I do not believe the Body of Christ replaced Israel. It is a travesty to think so, nor do I believe we are spiritual Israel . The Body is a distinct church as is our apostle (Romans 11:13 KJV, Colossians 1:24 KJV) distinct from that of the 12 apostles who will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (future Matthew 19:28 KJV)

The KJB says it just as I said it,

No, the KJ has it right. You have it wrong. "Context, Context, Context!" You have your religious blinders on. Take them off and read it believing it means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it and stop trying to retro fit everything into the passages!

Indeed. and it is the same faith they had in Jerusalem that Saul once persecuted, and later preached.

Agreed! And that "a faith" was in the gospel of God; the WHO of Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Romans 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

That's not the gospel of Christ; the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth! The gospel of Christ is the "some spiritual gift" thatPaul longed to see them to impart to them; to the end they may be established! You don't believe it, but that's what it says!

Romans 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
Romans 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Your posts are too long to respond to.That's why we have threads with specific topics.

 

[Randy2]

Why did all the Corinthians get Water Baptized in JESUS name?

 

[heir]

John baptized Jesus to fulfill all righteousness.

Do you know what that meant?

The Lord's one of a kind baptism certainly was NOT a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins like John's baptism (Mark 1:4 KJV) and that which Peter preached (Acts 2:38 KJV)!


The Lord Jesus Christ was water baptized to be made manifest to Israel:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

as the Lamb of God (sacrifices must be washed according to the law Exodus 29:17 KJV),


and as the great high priest Jesus Christ (Hebrews 6:20 KJV, Hebrews 8:1 KJV) must be washed as priests were washed according to the law Exodus 29:1-4 KJV, Exodus 29:9 KJV)!

And here it is!

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[PhilipJames]

These posts are way too long to reply to, but here is what I did respond to. That would be a long list. You have a lot of homework! Here's a good thread to start on things that are different.....

yes there are lots of threads here on TOL, many filled with misunderstandings, heresy and blatant untruths... but it is you, here, that I am discoursing with..

Your posts are too long to respond to.That's why we have threads with specific topics.

If you are going to speak about what is the church, what is the Gospel, through whom it was delivered etc... you must expect to be challenged on the arguments you make.

But for the sake of brevity, I will leave off discussing your misguided ideas in these matters and ask that you respond to this:

The language is perfect English? What is perfect English? You can go to different places in the world that speak English and find words that have very different meanings from one place to another and one time to another... What then is 'perfect English'?

Further, by what (or who's) authority, is the KJV held up as the standard? Jerome's vulgate was the standard in the west for a thousand years. Was that the 'pure and preserved words of the Lord'?

just so we're clear, I am NOT saying that one cannot find the Truth in the KJV (or any other translation), but that one must be careful to understand the intent of the words as written, rather than project one's own understanding onto them.

Peace
PJ

 

[heir]

yes

If you are going to speak about what is the church, what is the Gospel, through whom it was delivered etc... you must expect to be challenged on the arguments you make.

:yawn: I've responded. I see you haven't. Answer the OP.

 

[heir]

I am not angry... and the angels were indeed heralding the Gospel...

What does it mean 'goodwill to men' except that God was indeed reconciling the world to Himself ?

Peace!
PJ

The gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) was hidden in the scriptures until revealed to and through the apostle Paul. You act surprised.

Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.



You have to wonder just how many times you have to cite the same scripture before someone actually reads it and believes it.

 

[heir]

The Angels proclaimed it at the birth of our Saviour: Peace on Earth, Goodwill to (all) men!

Where's the preaching of the cross?

 

[Nick M]

Perverted? I think not.

Yes. Perverted is to twist to make evil.

as I said to heir.. CONTEXT, CONTEXT CONTEXT

1 Timothy 1

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

... the word translated 'first' in the KJV vs 16 is the same word translated as 'chief' in vs 15 and refers to the same thing!

Proto means first.

Paul is saying that he was the chief (or worst) of sinners

No, that isn't what it says. And it is obvious that is not what it says. You have been shown and reject it. I know where you are. You are a phony and a fraud.

1 Timothy 1

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

 

[PhilipJames]

:yawn: I've responded. I see you haven't. Answer the OP.

hello heir,

I believe I did, which is what led us down this path. Here it is again:

How about with the words of Jesus, Himself

John 3:5

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit

Peace!
PJ

 

[PhilipJames]

The gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) was hidden in the scriptures until revealed to and through the apostle Paul. You act surprised.

Hello heir,

The only thing that surprises me is that people seem to think that Gospel which Paul received from the Lord was somehow different than the one HE spent years teaching and living in front of the other apostles.

Why did Paul first go to the other apostles in Jerusalem?

Peace!
PJ

 

[PhilipJames]

Where's the preaching of the cross?

Right here>> 'goodwill to men'

Peace!
PJ

 

[PhilipJames]

Hello Nick,

Proto means first.

As in foremost, chief, top... etc yes... Paul identifies himself as the worst of sinners, to whom mercy was shown, an example (pattern if u wish) for others... He is saying that if he can receive mercy... anybody can... the context of his discourse immediately preceding that make it clear.

You have been shown and reject it. I know where you are. You are a phony and a fraud.

well thank you. much the same was said about my Master. May HE bless you exceedingly!

Peace!
PJ

p.s. perhaps you should take up a reading comprehension course.

 

[Lighthouse]

You've got the backwards, if it means chief (of the sinners) in vs 15 it also means chief (of the sinners) in vs 16

(Ugh this is why I dislike the KJV, the translation and wording is terrible)

Peace!
PJ

I can agree that if it means "chief" in 15 then it also means "chief" in 16; however, "...that in me chief..." doesn't make any sense, especially not in the context of the sentence.

Can you provide any substantive evidence to support the idea that Paul was calling himself the chief of sinners in v16?