What Happens in Purgatory? Tim Staples

Clete

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That would take several weeks of dedicated Bible study that doesn't fit in a single post on a forum. You'd be better off just reading Bob Enyart's The Plot.

Or, just read the entire Old Testament.



Correct. Because of what Christ did on the cross.



No.

We are no longer identified as slaves of sin.

Our identity is in Christ.



Your straw man not withstanding, no. Try reading the following passage free of your a priori beliefs.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:1-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:1-25&version=NKJV

Paul is telling us that even though we are saved, we still remain at war with the flesh, because we are not rid of it.



Never said there was.



Christians have their identity in Christ.

We are no longer sinners. That is not saying that we don't sin, nor does it mean that we are now incapable of sin.

It means that our identity is no longer that of "sinner," but rather "saved," and by Christ's shed blood.



"Love God" and "love your neighbor" are commands, law. For the people of the law, this is to be expected, for as Christ explained:

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 22:37-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew22:37-40&version=NKJV

That's quite different from what Paul said:

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians5:14&version=NKJV

See the difference?

One is a command that must be followed.
The other is something you do without needing to be told.



The promises God made to Israel were only for Israel. If a Gentile, prior to Acts 9, wanted to partake in Israels corporate relationship with God, they had to circumcise and become a proselyte Jew. (Circumcision is a symbol of the law.)

On the other hand, after Paul's conversion (remember, he was a Jew), anyone who wanted to enter into a relationship with God did not (and even could not, since the New Covenant was put on hold) could do so without having to circumcise, meaning they did not have to place themselves under Israel's laws.



False.



And? How does that in any way negate what I asked?

Again, in what way does God doing something different with different people at different times make it unfair for those who come later?



You still aren't getting it.

In the Body of Christ, THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE!

Under the New covenant, the distinction exists!



For someone who preaches that they are incapable of sinning anymore, it's hilarious that you bring this up.

"Remission" doesn't mean something is completely gone.

It means that it's reduced!

If someone has cancer, and through treatment it starts to go into remission, it doesn't mean that the cancer leaves their body, it just means that they are no longer in danger of it taking over their body, the doctor still has to check on them for many years, to make sure it doesn't come back.

Spoiler
Understanding the Difference Between Cure and Remission

Cure means that there are no traces of your cancer after treatment and the cancer will never come back.

Remission means that the signs and symptoms of your cancer are reduced. Remission can be partial or complete. In a complete remission, all signs and symptoms of cancer have disappeared.

If you remain in complete remission for 5 years or more, some doctors may say that you are cured. Still, some cancer cells can remain in your body for many years after treatment. These cells may cause the cancer to come back one day. For cancers that return, most do so within the first 5 years after treatment. But, there is a chance that cancer will come back later. For this reason, doctors cannot say for sure that you are cured. The most they can say is that there are no signs of cancer at this time.

Because of the chance that cancer can come back, your doctor will monitor you for many years and do tests to look for signs of cancer’s return. They will also look for signs of late side effects from the cancer treatments you received.



In the same way, "remission of sins" doesn't mean that sin is eliminated, it means that the effects of sin are reduced, it means that one won't sin as often.



Both of the above "requirements" were 1) part of the law, and 2) stated in the context of this verse:

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” - Matthew 15:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:24&version=NKJV



The "original message" was that Israel would have a kingdom ruled by Christ, with the Twelve Apostles sitting on Twelve thrones ruling over the Twelve tribes of Israel, a nation.

But the mystery revealed by Paul is that of an organism, one with many members, a new creature.

Things that are different are not the same.



You're still conflating the New Covenant with the gospel of grace.

Again: In the New Covenant, there is Jew and Gentile, and the distinction is important, so important that the entire nation's history (and the world's, for that matter) revolves around the difference! However, under the dispensation of the grace of God, in the Body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. As Paul says:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:26-29&version=NKJV



That won't happen until we're in heaven.



That's the entire point I've been making, Hoping!

Christians WON'T "bring sin along with them"! THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE GOSPEL OF GRACE! THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF CHRIST GOING TO THE CROSS! When we as Christians sin, it's STILL covered by how gracious God is! No matter how many times we sin while in a relationship with Him, God has STILL FORGIVEN, PAST TENSE, US of ALL our sins!

It's what I mean by saying "our identity is in Christ!" We are no longer identified as sinners, but as saints!



And I'm just supposed to take your word for it?!

On the contrary!

Jesus constantly told Israel that they must adhere to the law to the end of their lives.

But He, through Paul, tells us in the Body of Christ that we are already forgiven, that there's nothing we need to do to obtain salvation.

That's EXTREMELY different, AND VERY MUCH SO related to salvation!



That's ironic, given what you say next!

Rather, the "Jewish faithful and unfaithful" have nothing to do with the Body of Christ, but rather the New Covenant.

Those "Jewish faithful" were so because they believed Christ was their Messiah, that He was to be their King, even and especially after being crucified, then rising again on the third day, even to the end of their lives. These Jews are known as the "Remnant."

The "Jewish unfaithful" rejected Him, and because Israel as a whole rejected Him, the unbelieving portion of the nation
of Israel was cut off, to be grafted back on again whenever she returns to her Messiah.



You're conflating believing Jews under the New Covenant with believers who are neither Jew nor Gentile in the Body of Christ. Paul, in that verse, was talking about the latter, not the former.



They're not "founders of the faith."

They are the TWELVE Apostles who will rule on TWELVE thrones over the TWELVE tribes of Israel. Their salvation is of the New Covenant, not the gospel of grace.

Those who entered into a covenant relationship with God under the New Covenant didn't need to enter into a second relationship with Him through the gospel of grace, and were told to remain faithful to the end under the New Covenant.

Also, Paul warned those in the Body of Christ that if they put themselves under the law then they would become cursed to keep that law.



Appeal to the stone.



Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy2:15&version=NKJV

That's what I'm doing.

You, on the other hand, are just mashing everything up in the Bible and saying it's all the same



Yup.



That much is obvious.



No, you're not. You need to humble yourself and ask God for forgiveness, and place your trust in Him and his righteousness, and not yourself and your own righteousness.



No, I simply rightly divide scripture.

Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? - 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians1:12-13&version=NKJV



You worship yourself, putting yourself on Christ's pedestal.



Lying is a sin. Stop lying.



Bearing false witness is a sin. Stop bearing false witness against me.



I still have not received a glorified body, and thus I still sin.

But as someone in Christ, I am no longer identified as a sinner, but as saved.



If that's what you think, then you've completely misunderstood Romans 6, and the entire gospel he preached.



It's not.

Again:

Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:9-11&version=NKJV



Says the one claiming there is Jew and Greek in the Body of Christ...



Supra.



Jew, and Greek (Gentile)

That should have been obvious.



There's nothing here that says anything about tribes, even figuratively.

It wasn't tribes that were cut off of the natural fig tree, it was the unbelieving portion of Israel.

Try again.



Did you forget that there's still only twelve tribes in the Bible?

Funny how despite you claiming that you're part of some 13th tribe, that the Bible never calls the Body of Christ a tribe, nor mentions one.



Wrong.

We are joined to Christ, not to Israel.

Many people misunderstand and think that the gentiles are grafted into Israel, but that's not what the analogy Paul uses describes.

Israel are the branches on the olive tree, not the trunk. The wild branch (believers in the Body of Christ) wasn't grafted onto another branch, it was grafted onto the trunk, who is Christ!



In what way do I abhor them?



Says the man who binds himself in chains.



AMEN!



Was it your baptism that saved you?



I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:21-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:21-25&version=NKJV



Ad hominem.



Again, it doesn't make any sense to tell someone who is incapable of sin to not sin.



Duh.



Begging the question. You have not established that faith can keep one free from sinning.



Even the best runners stumble and fall.



My victory is in Christ who has already achieved victory, not my own feeble attempts at perfection.



I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:21-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:21-25&version=NKJV



Duh.



Not mine.



Not quite.

If we are in Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us. We are MADE righteous, justified, not because we ourselves are righteous (our righteousness is as filthy rags), but because Christ is righteous.



This was written to the twelve tribes scattered abroad.

Not to the Body of Christ.



Supra.



Paul is writing to believers, the same people whom you claim are incapable of sinning. My point stands.



Loaded question.



Nope.

That's one of the litmus tests for seeing who



No, as per my position, freedom from SERVING sin is for the Jews under the New Covenant.

Remember, the law given to Israel accounted for the fact that people were going to sin, and had ways for people who DID break the law, to become right with God, through sacrifices and rituals.

Under the New Covenant, Christ WAS the sacrifice.



Under the New Covenant, yes, hence why if a Gentile wanted to be free, he had to circumcise and keep the law.

But we're not under the New Covenant. We're under grace, not law, no circumcision required.



No.

It's saying that God's grace and love for us is greater than our sin, that He met the demands for justice by dying on the cross FOR US!:

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5:6-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:6-11&version=NKJV

Christ took our place.



Liar.
Your posts are so worth reading!

Hoping is hopeless unless and until someone can cause him to see his own sin. His own sinless perfection delusion is THE bedrock foundation of his worldview. If it cracks, his entire world crumbles to dust. This is why he instictively refuses to clearly define what it means to sin.

People who think they're swimming will accept the efforts of the life guard as an attack and, you can throw all the life preservers at a drowning man you want but if he thinks he's walking on the water, he'll ignore them all and look at you like you're crazy for throwing them.

Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Define the difference between freedom from serving sin and freedom from sin.
Judge Rightly is right, to do this justice would require a book length treatise but, in a sentence, I'd say it boils down to the fact that Christ bore the consequences of sin so that we don't have to. It is the nature and extent of those consequences that requires a book length treatise because its quite a lot more than just not going to Hell when you die.

The Law itself, for example, is a consequence of sin. The law is, in fact, the result of Adam having eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is, in effect, the fruit of that tree. Christ nailed the law to the cross and undid the curse at Calvary.

Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

Thus, just as Adam, before the Fall, was told not to partake of the Tree, we who are in Christ are told not to partake of the law, for just as the Tree had a ministry of death, so also does the law.

Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”​
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,​

And just as Paul teaches in multiple places, it isn't that we do not do things that we shouldn't while in the flesh, it's that Christ has not only bore the penalty for those sins but removed the law which convicts us in the first place, for where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.​

Those who are in Christ have died with Him and the law cannot kill you twice!
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​

Therefore....

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.​
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.​
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
So then, the answer to your question comes down to whether you identify with your flesh or with the Spirit. Is it about your acts of righteousness or Christ's righteousness being imputed to you? How much righteousness can a dead man perform? How much sin can the dead man be convicted of? What more can the law do to the man who it has crucified?

Romans 5:13b ...but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

The answer, of course, is NOTHING! Thus, those who are in Christ are free from sin!

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,​
Romans 4:24b It [righteousness] shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,​


Now, Hoping, you need to understand that what I've just presented to you is the very gospel itself. If you reject it as false, you are, in fact, an unbeliever, by definition. It is 100% about whether your righteousness is by faith or by effort. You can try to live as though you're some sort of Messianic Jew but it will profit you nothing. The dispensation of law was ended when God cut off Israel (Romans 9) and that program no longer has any ability to place you in relationship with God. God will return to it eventually but for now its grace through faith alone or nothing at all.

Clete
 

Hoping

Well-known member
That would take several weeks of dedicated Bible study that doesn't fit in a single post on a forum. You'd be better off just reading Bob Enyart's The Plot.
Or, just read the entire Old Testament.
Or, just see it as it is and say..."Nothing is different."
Correct. Because of what Christ did on the cross.



No.

We are no longer identified as slaves of sin.

Our identity is in Christ.



Your straw man not withstanding, no. Try reading the following passage free of your a priori beliefs.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:1-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:1-25&version=NKJV

Paul is telling us that even though we are saved, we still remain at war with the flesh, because we are not rid of it.



Never said there was.



Christians have their identity in Christ.

We are no longer sinners. That is not saying that we don't sin, nor does it mean that we are now incapable of sin.

It means that our identity is no longer that of "sinner," but rather "saved," and by Christ's shed blood.



"Love God" and "love your neighbor" are commands, law. For the people of the law, this is to be expected, for as Christ explained:

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 22:37-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew22:37-40&version=NKJV

That's quite different from what Paul said:

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians5:14&version=NKJV

See the difference?

One is a command that must be followed.
The other is something you do without needing to be told.



The promises God made to Israel were only for Israel. If a Gentile, prior to Acts 9, wanted to partake in Israels corporate relationship with God, they had to circumcise and become a proselyte Jew. (Circumcision is a symbol of the law.)

On the other hand, after Paul's conversion (remember, he was a Jew), anyone who wanted to enter into a relationship with God did not (and even could not, since the New Covenant was put on hold) could do so without having to circumcise, meaning they did not have to place themselves under Israel's laws.



False.



And? How does that in any way negate what I asked?

Again, in what way does God doing something different with different people at different times make it unfair for those who come later?



You still aren't getting it.

In the Body of Christ, THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE!

Under the New covenant, the distinction exists!



For someone who preaches that they are incapable of sinning anymore, it's hilarious that you bring this up.

"Remission" doesn't mean something is completely gone.

It means that it's reduced!

If someone has cancer, and through treatment it starts to go into remission, it doesn't mean that the cancer leaves their body, it just means that they are no longer in danger of it taking over their body, the doctor still has to check on them for many years, to make sure it doesn't come back.

Spoiler
Understanding the Difference Between Cure and Remission

Cure means that there are no traces of your cancer after treatment and the cancer will never come back.

Remission means that the signs and symptoms of your cancer are reduced. Remission can be partial or complete. In a complete remission, all signs and symptoms of cancer have disappeared.

If you remain in complete remission for 5 years or more, some doctors may say that you are cured. Still, some cancer cells can remain in your body for many years after treatment. These cells may cause the cancer to come back one day. For cancers that return, most do so within the first 5 years after treatment. But, there is a chance that cancer will come back later. For this reason, doctors cannot say for sure that you are cured. The most they can say is that there are no signs of cancer at this time.

Because of the chance that cancer can come back, your doctor will monitor you for many years and do tests to look for signs of cancer’s return. They will also look for signs of late side effects from the cancer treatments you received.



In the same way, "remission of sins" doesn't mean that sin is eliminated, it means that the effects of sin are reduced, it means that one won't sin as often.



Both of the above "requirements" were 1) part of the law, and 2) stated in the context of this verse:

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” - Matthew 15:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:24&version=NKJV



The "original message" was that Israel would have a kingdom ruled by Christ, with the Twelve Apostles sitting on Twelve thrones ruling over the Twelve tribes of Israel, a nation.

But the mystery revealed by Paul is that of an organism, one with many members, a new creature.

Things that are different are not the same.



You're still conflating the New Covenant with the gospel of grace.

Again: In the New Covenant, there is Jew and Gentile, and the distinction is important, so important that the entire nation's history (and the world's, for that matter) revolves around the difference! However, under the dispensation of the grace of God, in the Body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. As Paul says:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:26-29&version=NKJV



That won't happen until we're in heaven.



That's the entire point I've been making, Hoping!

Christians WON'T "bring sin along with them"! THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE GOSPEL OF GRACE! THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF CHRIST GOING TO THE CROSS! When we as Christians sin, it's STILL covered by how gracious God is! No matter how many times we sin while in a relationship with Him, God has STILL FORGIVEN, PAST TENSE, US of ALL our sins!

It's what I mean by saying "our identity is in Christ!" We are no longer identified as sinners, but as saints!



And I'm just supposed to take your word for it?!

On the contrary!

Jesus constantly told Israerl that they must adhere to the law to the end of their lives.

But He, through Paul, tells us in the Body of Christ that we are already forgiven, that there's nothing we need to do to obtain salvation.

That's EXTREMELY different, AND VERY MUCH SO related to salvation!



That's ironic, given what you say next!

Rather, the "Jewish faithful and unfaithful" have nothing to do with the Body of Christ, but rather the New Covenant.

Those "Jewish faithful" were so because they believed Christ was their Messiah, that He was to be their King, even and especially after being crucified, then rising again on the third day, even to the end of their lives. These Jews are known as the "Remnant."

The "Jewish unfaithful" rejected Him, and because Israel as a whole rejected Him, the unbelieving portion of the nation
of Israel was cut off, to be grafted back on again whenever she returns to her Messiah.



You're conflating believing Jews under the New Covenant with believers who are neither Jew nor Gentile in the Body of Christ. Paul, in that verse, was talking about the latter, not the former.



They're not "founders of the faith."

They are the TWELVE Apostles who will rule on TWELVE thrones over the TWELVE tribes of Israel. Their salvation is of the New Covenant, not the gospel of grace.

Those who entered into a covenant relationship with God under the New Covenant didn't need to enter into a second relationship with Him through the gospel of grace, and were told to remain faithful to the end under the New Covenant.

Also, Paul warned those in the Body of Christ that if they put themselves under the law then they would become cursed to keep that law.



Appeal to the stone.



Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy2:15&version=NKJV

That's what I'm doing.

You, on the other hand, are just mashing everything up in the Bible and saying it's all the same



Yup.



That much is obvious.



No, you're not. You need to humble yourself and ask God for forgiveness, and place your trust in Him and his righteousness, and not yourself and your own righteousness.



No, I simply rightly divide scripture.

Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? - 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians1:12-13&version=NKJV



You worship yourself, putting yourself on Christ's pedestal.



Lying is a sin. Stop lying.



Bearing false witness is a sin. Stop bearing false witness against me.



I still have not received a glorified body, and thus I still sin.

But as someone in Christ, I am no longer identified as a sinner, but as saved.



If that's what you think, then you've completely misunderstood Romans 6, and the entire gospel he preached.



It's not.

Again:

Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:9-11&version=NKJV



Says the one claiming there is Jew and Greek in the Body of Christ...



Supra.



Jew, and Greek (Gentile)

That should have been obvious.



There's nothing here that says anything about tribes, even figuratively.

It wasn't tribes that were cut off of the natural fig tree, it was the unbelieving portion of Israel.

Try again.



Did you forget that there's still only twelve tribes in the Bible?

Funny how despite you claiming that you're part of some 13th tribe, that the Bible never calls the Body of Christ a tribe, nor mentions one.



Wrong.

We are joined to Christ, not to Israel.

Many people misunderstand and think that the gentiles are grafted into Israel, but that's not what the analogy Paul uses describes.

Israel are the branches on the olive tree, not the trunk. The wild branch (believers in the Body of Christ) wasn't grafted onto another branch, it was grafted onto the trunk, who is Christ!



In what way do I abhor them?



Says the man who binds himself in chains.



AMEN!



Was it your baptism that saved you?



I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:21-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:21-25&version=NKJV



Ad hominem.



Again, it doesn't make any sense to tell someone who is incapable of sin to not sin.



Duh.



Begging the question. You have not established that faith can keep one free from sinning.



Even the best runners stumble and fall.



My victory is in Christ who has already achieved victory, not my own feeble attempts at perfection.



I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:21-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:21-25&version=NKJV



Duh.



Not mine.



Not quite.

If we are in Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us. We are MADE righteous, justified, not because we ourselves are righteous (our righteousness is as filthy rags), but because Christ is righteous.



This was written to the twelve tribes scattered abroad.

Not to the Body of Christ.



Supra.



Paul is writing to believers, the same people whom you claim are incapable of sinning. My point stands.



Loaded question.



Nope.

That's one of the litmus tests for seeing who



No, as per my position, freedom from SERVING sin is for the Jews under the New Covenant.

Remember, the law given to Israel accounted for the fact that people were going to sin, and had ways for people who DID break the law, to become right with God, through sacrifices and rituals.

Under the New Covenant, Christ WAS the sacrifice.



Under the New Covenant, yes, hence why if a Gentile wanted to be free, he had to circumcise and keep the law.

But we're not under the New Covenant. We're under grace, not law, no circumcision required.



No.

It's saying that God's grace and love for us is greater than our sin, that He met the demands for justice by dying on the cross FOR US!:

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5:6-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:6-11&version=NKJV

Christ took our place.



Liar.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Judge Rightly is right, to do this justice would require a book length treatise but, in a sentence, I'd say it boils down to the fact that Christ bore the consequences of sin so that we don't have to. It is the nature and extent of those consequences that requires a book length treatise because its quite a lot more than just not going to Hell when you die.

The Law itself, for example, is a consequence of sin. The law is, in fact, the result of Adam having eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is, in effect, the fruit of that tree. Christ nailed the law to the cross and undid the curse at Calvary.

Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

Thus, just as Adam, before the Fall, was told not to partake of the Tree, we who are in Christ are told not to partake of the law, for just as the Tree had a ministry of death, so also does the law.

Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”​
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,​

And just as Paul teaches in multiple places, it isn't that we do not do things that we shouldn't while in the flesh, it's that Christ has not only bore the penalty for those sins but removed the law which convicts us in the first place, for where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.​

Those who are in Christ have died with Him and the law cannot kill you twice!
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​

Therefore....

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.​
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.​
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
So then, the answer to your question comes down to whether you identify with your flesh or with the Spirit. Is it about your acts of righteousness or Christ's righteousness being imputed to you? How much righteousness can a dead man perform? How much sin can the dead man be convicted of? What more can the law do to the man who it has crucified?

Romans 5:13b ...but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

The answer, of course, is NOTHING! Thus, those who are in Christ are free from sin!

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,​
Romans 4:24b It [righteousness] shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,​


Now, Hoping, you need to understand that what I've just presented to you is the very gospel itself. If you reject it as false, you are, in fact, an unbeliever, by definition. It is 100% about whether your righteousness is by faith or by effort. You can try to live as though you're some sort of Messianic Jew but it will profit you nothing. The dispensation of law was ended when God cut off Israel (Romans 9) and that program no longer has any ability to place you in relationship with God. God will return to it eventually but for now its grace through faith alone or nothing at all.

Clete
I can't identify with the flesh, because it is dead.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
No flesh(ly mind), no vile affections, no lusts; ends up with no sinning.
Thanks be to God.
BTW...The real gospel is...Jesus died for our sins, and was raised from the dead.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
I can't identify with the flesh, because it is dead.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
No flesh(ly mind), no vile affections, no lusts; ends up with no sinning.
Thanks be to God.
BTW...The real gospel is...Jesus died for our sins, and was raised from the dead.
Once again, not a thimble full of substance in response to a post that took two hours to write.

If you aren't interested in even challenging yourself to substantively defend your own beliefs, never mind entertaining the notion that you might learn something you didn't already know, then what is the purpose of spending the time that this kind of interaction requires? Where's the benefit?

Tell me something, had you ever even noticed, before I just told you, that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law were the only two things in scripture that had/have a ministry of death? Had it ever occurred to you that the two where in any way linked at all? No, of course, you'd never heard anything similar to it your entire life but you don't even care! You just gloss over a point that, if true, is one of the most profoundly important doctrinal teachings that you will ever hear as though I said nothing at all. You didn't question it, you didn't challenge it, you didn't ask for clarification or more details. You simply blew it off as though it was nothing and couldn't be anything else other than nothing. Instead you present what is clearly intended to be a rebuttal to all that, the fact that Jesus died and rose from the dead as though that somehow not only contradicts but negates what I said when that's what makes it all possible! It's like telling me that color is actually just different frequencies of light in refutation of my have said the sky was blue! Can you think at all?

I'd be embarrassed out of my mind if childishly shallow sound bites and utterly meaningless truisms were all I could muster in defense of something as profoundly important as claiming to have attained sinlessness, of all things, and/or I showed up here with as little curiosity about why others believe what they believe as you've demonstrated in this thread all while boasting about being arrogant enough to announce to everyone here that they too could be sinless if all they did was love God the way you do!

Clete
 
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Hoping

Well-known member
Once again, not a thimble full of substance in response to a post that took two hours to write.
OK.
If you aren't interested in even challenging yourself to substantively defend your own beliefs, never mind entertaining the notion that you might learn something you didn't already know, then what is the purpose of spending the time that this kind of interaction requires? Where's the benefit?
"MY" beliefs are Paul's beliefs.
Tell me something, had you ever even noticed, before I just told you, that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law were the only two things in scripture that had/have a ministry of death? Had it ever occurred to you that the two where in any way linked at all? No, of course, you'd never heard anything similar to it your entire life but you don't even care! You just gloss over a point that, if true, is one of the most profoundly important doctrinal teachings that you will ever hear as though I said nothing at all. You didn't question it, you didn't challenge it, you didn't ask for clarification or more details. You simply blew it off as though it was nothing and couldn't be anything else other than nothing. Instead you present what is clearly intended to be a rebuttal to all that, the fact that Jesus died and rose from the dead as though that somehow not only contradicts but negates what I said when that's what makes it all possible! It's like telling me that color is actually just different frequencies of light in refutation of my have said the sky was blue! Can you think at all?
Why should tales of death peek my interest when I am alive in Christ?
Those in Christ have been paid the wages of their sin with death.
Those that have repented of sin and been water baptized into Christ's death and burial have been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
I am now a new creature.
Death is a topic for those still walking after the flesh.
I'd be embarrassed out of my mind if childishly shallow sound bites and utterly meaningless truisms were all I could muster in defense of something as profoundly important as claiming to have attained sinlessness, of all things, and/or I showed up here with as little curiosity about why others believe what they believe as you've demonstrated in this thread all while boasting about being arrogant enough to announce to everyone here that they too could be sinless if all they did was love God the way you do!
Clete
I have no curiosity in the defense of sinning.
Sinners hate God, according to Jesus.
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other...." (Matt 6:24)
BTW, sinners are still under the Law, and their sins shows that Jesus' righteousness is nowhere near them.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
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What Happens in Purgatory?
Tim Staples on Catholic Answers Live

Purgatory is a state of purification before heaven. But what exactly goes on there? We can't know every detail about it in this life, but the Bible does give us clues

There is no such place. It is mentioned no where in the Bible, the authorized canon of Scripture
 

JudgeRightly

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How can being obedient to God be wrong?

So no answer to the rest of what I said, @Hoping ?

That would take several weeks of dedicated Bible study that doesn't fit in a single post on a forum. You'd be better off just reading Bob Enyart's The Plot.

Or, just read the entire Old Testament.



Correct. Because of what Christ did on the cross.



No.

We are no longer identified as slaves of sin.

Our identity is in Christ.



Your straw man not withstanding, no. Try reading the following passage free of your a priori beliefs.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:1-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:1-25&version=NKJV

Paul is telling us that even though we are saved, we still remain at war with the flesh, because we are not rid of it.



Never said there was.



Christians have their identity in Christ.

We are no longer sinners. That is not saying that we don't sin, nor does it mean that we are now incapable of sin.

It means that our identity is no longer that of "sinner," but rather "saved," and by Christ's shed blood.



"Love God" and "love your neighbor" are commands, law. For the people of the law, this is to be expected, for as Christ explained:

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 22:37-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew22:37-40&version=NKJV

That's quite different from what Paul said:

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians5:14&version=NKJV

See the difference?

One is a command that must be followed.
The other is something you do without needing to be told.



The promises God made to Israel were only for Israel. If a Gentile, prior to Acts 9, wanted to partake in Israels corporate relationship with God, they had to circumcise and become a proselyte Jew. (Circumcision is a symbol of the law.)

On the other hand, after Paul's conversion (remember, he was a Jew), anyone who wanted to enter into a relationship with God did not (and even could not, since the New Covenant was put on hold) could do so without having to circumcise, meaning they did not have to place themselves under Israel's laws.



False.



And? How does that in any way negate what I asked?

Again, in what way does God doing something different with different people at different times make it unfair for those who come later?



You still aren't getting it.

In the Body of Christ, THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE!

Under the New covenant, the distinction exists!



For someone who preaches that they are incapable of sinning anymore, it's hilarious that you bring this up.

"Remission" doesn't mean something is completely gone.

It means that it's reduced!

If someone has cancer, and through treatment it starts to go into remission, it doesn't mean that the cancer leaves their body, it just means that they are no longer in danger of it taking over their body, the doctor still has to check on them for many years, to make sure it doesn't come back.

Spoiler
Understanding the Difference Between Cure and Remission

Cure means that there are no traces of your cancer after treatment and the cancer will never come back.

Remission means that the signs and symptoms of your cancer are reduced. Remission can be partial or complete. In a complete remission, all signs and symptoms of cancer have disappeared.

If you remain in complete remission for 5 years or more, some doctors may say that you are cured. Still, some cancer cells can remain in your body for many years after treatment. These cells may cause the cancer to come back one day. For cancers that return, most do so within the first 5 years after treatment. But, there is a chance that cancer will come back later. For this reason, doctors cannot say for sure that you are cured. The most they can say is that there are no signs of cancer at this time.

Because of the chance that cancer can come back, your doctor will monitor you for many years and do tests to look for signs of cancer’s return. They will also look for signs of late side effects from the cancer treatments you received.



In the same way, "remission of sins" doesn't mean that sin is eliminated, it means that the effects of sin are reduced, it means that one won't sin as often.



Both of the above "requirements" were 1) part of the law, and 2) stated in the context of this verse:

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” - Matthew 15:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:24&version=NKJV



The "original message" was that Israel would have a kingdom ruled by Christ, with the Twelve Apostles sitting on Twelve thrones ruling over the Twelve tribes of Israel, a nation.

But the mystery revealed by Paul is that of an organism, one with many members, a new creature.

Things that are different are not the same.



You're still conflating the New Covenant with the gospel of grace.

Again: In the New Covenant, there is Jew and Gentile, and the distinction is important, so important that the entire nation's history (and the world's, for that matter) revolves around the difference! However, under the dispensation of the grace of God, in the Body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. As Paul says:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:26-29&version=NKJV



That won't happen until we're in heaven.



That's the entire point I've been making, Hoping!

Christians WON'T "bring sin along with them"! THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE GOSPEL OF GRACE! THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF CHRIST GOING TO THE CROSS! When we as Christians sin, it's STILL covered by how gracious God is! No matter how many times we sin while in a relationship with Him, God has STILL FORGIVEN, PAST TENSE, US of ALL our sins!

It's what I mean by saying "our identity is in Christ!" We are no longer identified as sinners, but as saints!



And I'm just supposed to take your word for it?!

On the contrary!

Jesus constantly told Israel that they must adhere to the law to the end of their lives.

But He, through Paul, tells us in the Body of Christ that we are already forgiven, that there's nothing we need to do to obtain salvation.

That's EXTREMELY different, AND VERY MUCH SO related to salvation!



That's ironic, given what you say next!

Rather, the "Jewish faithful and unfaithful" have nothing to do with the Body of Christ, but rather the New Covenant.

Those "Jewish faithful" were so because they believed Christ was their Messiah, that He was to be their King, even and especially after being crucified, then rising again on the third day, even to the end of their lives. These Jews are known as the "Remnant."

The "Jewish unfaithful" rejected Him, and because Israel as a whole rejected Him, the unbelieving portion of the nation
of Israel was cut off, to be grafted back on again whenever she returns to her Messiah.



You're conflating believing Jews under the New Covenant with believers who are neither Jew nor Gentile in the Body of Christ. Paul, in that verse, was talking about the latter, not the former.



They're not "founders of the faith."

They are the TWELVE Apostles who will rule on TWELVE thrones over the TWELVE tribes of Israel. Their salvation is of the New Covenant, not the gospel of grace.

Those who entered into a covenant relationship with God under the New Covenant didn't need to enter into a second relationship with Him through the gospel of grace, and were told to remain faithful to the end under the New Covenant.

Also, Paul warned those in the Body of Christ that if they put themselves under the law then they would become cursed to keep that law.



Appeal to the stone.



Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy2:15&version=NKJV

That's what I'm doing.

You, on the other hand, are just mashing everything up in the Bible and saying it's all the same



Yup.



That much is obvious.



No, you're not. You need to humble yourself and ask God for forgiveness, and place your trust in Him and his righteousness, and not yourself and your own righteousness.



No, I simply rightly divide scripture.

Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? - 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians1:12-13&version=NKJV



You worship yourself, putting yourself on Christ's pedestal.



Lying is a sin. Stop lying.



Bearing false witness is a sin. Stop bearing false witness against me.



I still have not received a glorified body, and thus I still sin.

But as someone in Christ, I am no longer identified as a sinner, but as saved.



If that's what you think, then you've completely misunderstood Romans 6, and the entire gospel he preached.



It's not.

Again:

Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:9-11&version=NKJV



Says the one claiming there is Jew and Greek in the Body of Christ...



Supra.



Jew, and Greek (Gentile)

That should have been obvious.



There's nothing here that says anything about tribes, even figuratively.

It wasn't tribes that were cut off of the natural fig tree, it was the unbelieving portion of Israel.

Try again.



Did you forget that there's still only twelve tribes in the Bible?

Funny how despite you claiming that you're part of some 13th tribe, that the Bible never calls the Body of Christ a tribe, nor mentions one.



Wrong.

We are joined to Christ, not to Israel.

Many people misunderstand and think that the gentiles are grafted into Israel, but that's not what the analogy Paul uses describes.

Israel are the branches on the olive tree, not the trunk. The wild branch (believers in the Body of Christ) wasn't grafted onto another branch, it was grafted onto the trunk, who is Christ!



In what way do I abhor them?



Says the man who binds himself in chains.



AMEN!



Was it your baptism that saved you?



I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:21-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:21-25&version=NKJV



Ad hominem.



Again, it doesn't make any sense to tell someone who is incapable of sin to not sin.



Duh.



Begging the question. You have not established that faith can keep one free from sinning.



Even the best runners stumble and fall.



My victory is in Christ who has already achieved victory, not my own feeble attempts at perfection.



I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:21-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:21-25&version=NKJV



Duh.



Not mine.



Not quite.

If we are in Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us. We are MADE righteous, justified, not because we ourselves are righteous (our righteousness is as filthy rags), but because Christ is righteous.



This was written to the twelve tribes scattered abroad.

Not to the Body of Christ.



Supra.



Paul is writing to believers, the same people whom you claim are incapable of sinning. My point stands.



Loaded question.



Nope.

That's one of the litmus tests for seeing who actually preaches the gospel! If you aren't being accused of telling people it's fine to sin, that grace may abound, then you're not actually preaching what Paul taught, because it's almost like he's actually saying that! But he's not. He's saying that you shouldn't sin, but if you do, it's already been forgiven.



No, as per my position, freedom from SERVING sin is for the Jews under the New Covenant.

Remember, the law given to Israel accounted for the fact that people were going to sin, and had ways for people who DID break the law, to become right with God, through sacrifices and rituals.

Under the New Covenant, Christ WAS the sacrifice.



Under the New Covenant, yes, hence why if a Gentile wanted to be free, he had to circumcise and keep the law.

But we're not under the New Covenant. We're under grace, not law, no circumcision required.



No.

It's saying that God's grace and love for us is greater than our sin, that He met the demands for justice by dying on the cross FOR US!:

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5:6-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:6-11&version=NKJV

Christ took our place.



Liar.
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
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"MY" beliefs are Paul's beliefs.
Saying it doesn't make it so.

I've been demonstrating to you otherwise and you literally have nothing AT ALL but a claim to the contrary. I literally do not understand how anyone could be willing to live with that.
Why should tales of death peek my interest when I am alive in Christ?
Only because its a major part of the plot line in the book that God wrote!

Those in Christ have been paid the wages of their sin with death.
No, we haven't been paid anything. It is He who holds the debt that gets paid, not the debtor.

Those that have repented of sin and been water baptized into Christ's death and burial have been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Water baptism, along with a list of other baptisms, was a religious ritual that was part of the law and required of Israel. While it is a common Christian practice for very understandable reasons, it is not required nor does it have any salvific effect. The error you make here is so ubiquitous throughout Christianity that I never recommend that anyone get water baptized because by doing so its all but impossible to keep from tascitly attempting to be justified by law. Water baptism, in the minds of most Christians, is just circumcision light.

I am now a new creature.
I very much doubt it.

Death is a topic for those still walking after the flesh.
The more truisms you spout the stupider you prove yourself to be. How can you claim to love God so much that you no longer sin at all and yet have exactly zero curiosity about the details of His word?

I have no curiosity in the defense of sinning.
Translation: I will not entertain the idea that I've made an error and that my doctrine is wrong.

As I told Judge Rightly, you are quite entirely a hopeless case - for now.
One day, hopefully, you'll do something bad enough that it'll be impossible for you to convince yourself that it wasn't a sin. Until then, you're a drowning man who thinks he's walking on water. HOPELESS!!

Sinners hate God, according to Jesus.
By that standard, EVERYONE hates God!

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,​

Didn't you just get through claiming that your beliefs are Paul's beliefs?

It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other...." (Matt 6:24)
This verse does not teach sinless perfection, Hoping!

You don't get to read your doctrine into the text! Any doctrine you want to conjure up can be defended biblically if using scripture in this manner is valid! This sort of thing is how you defend the idea that its God's will that four year old children get raped and murdered by their own father and that God predestined several teen-aged boys to get raped, tortured and eaten by Jeffery Dahmer. In fact, this sort of use of God's word is how people defend the belief that every sin that has happened and all the sins that will ever happen were predestined by God before time began and that He did it for NO REASON other than it pleased Himself to do so.

Just because I love God and despise my flesh, doesn't mean that my flesh magically disappears into non-existence. Quite the contrary, it is an on going war between the two.

BTW, sinners are still under the Law, and their sins shows that Jesus' righteousness is nowhere near them.
In a manner of speaking, yes, but no one is under the law of Moses right now - no one - period.

Gentiles never have been under the Law of Moses and never will be.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to MY gospel.
There will never be a gentile, from any era, judged as guilty of sin because he wasn't circumcised or water baptized or because he failed to give a tenth of this income to the church, etc.

Such confusion is a symptom of your half inch deep understanding of God's word. You couldn't tell me the difference between a law having to do with a religious rite vs a moral law if your life depended on it. As a result, you believe that Italians that die without Christ will be judged for not having taken Saturday's off work.

Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
How can being obedient to God be wrong?
This sentence is proof that you aren't even trying to have an honest discussion.

That is a form of lying, Hoping. Seriously!

No one has even implied that being obedient to God could even possibly be wrong and yet, you, the man who NEVER SINS AT ALL, shows up here with little gem of stupidity that you knew was false when you typed it!

Hmm! 🤔
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Citing scripture does make it so.
I've been demonstrating to you otherwise and you literally have nothing AT ALL but a claim to the contrary. I literally do not understand how anyone could be willing to live with that.
I'll agree with Paul instead of your interpretation of Paul.
Only because its a major part of the plot line in the book that God wrote!
It is indeed a part of God's "plot line" but it is a part that is in my past.
No, we haven't been paid anything. It is He who holds the debt that gets paid, not the debtor.
It is written..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
My sins have been opened, and I received my "wage".
It is written..."For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23)
Water baptism, along with a list of other baptisms, was a religious ritual that was part of the law and required of Israel. While it is a common Christian practice for very understandable reasons, it is not required nor does it have any salvific effect. The error you make here is so ubiquitous throughout Christianity that I never recommend that anyone get water baptized because by doing so its all but impossible to keep from tascitly attempting to be justified by law. Water baptism, in the minds of most Christians, is just circumcision light.
I wanted my sins remitted and a good conscience before God. (Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21)
Water baptism was the way.
I found out afterwards that it is also the way the old man, (me), can be killed and a new creature raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Oh, and it is the circumcision done without hands, in putting off the body of sins by the circumcision of Christ. (Col 2:11-13)
I very much doubt it.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
As my water baptism accomplished my "immersion" into Christ, (Rom 6:3) the result was the new creature of 2 Cor 5:17.
The more truisms you spout the stupider you prove yourself to be. How can you claim to love God so much that you no longer sin at all and yet have exactly zero curiosity about the details of His word?
The details of His word have provided me the path to eternal life.
Your doctrine precludes you from those first, and last, steps. ie... Repentance from sin, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and ultimately, abiding faithfully until the end of time.
Translation: I will not entertain the idea that I've made an error and that my doctrine is wrong.
If a wrong doctrine allows a man to live free from sin, can it really be from the devil? (Please be careful not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit here)
As I told Judge Rightly, you are quite entirely a hopeless case - for now.
One day, hopefully, you'll do something bad enough that it'll be impossible for you to convince yourself that it wasn't a sin. Until then, you're a drowning man who thinks he's walking on water. HOPELESS!!
I thankfully pray in the name of Jesus Christ, knowing that your words are based on your own beliefs, and you are not personally hoping I commit some devilish sin.
By that standard, EVERYONE hates God!
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,​
Nope, just the sinners.
Instead of forsaking sin, they have found doctrines that accommodate sin.
If Paul's citing were actually still true, then Jesus too, was a sinner.
You don't believe He was, do you?
This verse does not teach sinless perfection, Hoping!
Jesus does teach that men cannot serve God and serve sin at the same time.
You don't get to read your doctrine into the text! Any doctrine you want to conjure up can be defended biblically if using scripture in this manner is valid!
We can only judge doctrines by their fruit.
What is the result?
This sort of thing is how you defend the idea that its God's will that four year old children get raped and murdered by their own father and that God predestined several teen-aged boys to get raped, tortured and eaten by Jeffery Dahmer. In fact, this sort of use of God's word is how people defend the belief that every sin that has happened and all the sins that will ever happen were predestined by God before time began and that He did it for NO REASON other than it pleased Himself to do so.
I don't blame God for the sins of other, or for my own past sins.
It is the devil's handy work through haters of God.
Just because I love God and despise my flesh, doesn't mean that my flesh magically disappears into non-existence. Quite the contrary, it is an on going war between the two.
If you really hated your "flesh", you would leap to the doctrines I present concerning the death of the old man/flesh.
I did, and I didn't even know about "hating the flesh"; or knowing that being in Christ could subjugate my worst enemy...me.
In a manner of speaking, yes, but no one is under the law of Moses right now - no one - period.
Gentiles never have been under the Law of Moses and never will be.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to MY gospel.
There will never be a gentile, from any era, judged as guilty of sin because he wasn't circumcised or water baptized or because he failed to give a tenth of this income to the church, etc.
Such confusion is a symptom of your half inch deep understanding of God's word. You couldn't tell me the difference between a law having to do with a religious rite vs a moral law if your life depended on it. As a result, you believe that Italians that die without Christ will be judged for not having taken Saturday's off work.
Having said that, how will Gentiles be judged?
By their consciences.
Can you tell me if stealing or adultery would offend your conscience?
If so, won't the thief and adulterer be judged as a breaker of one of God's Laws, even though they were not a Jew?
Who did Paul say the Law was for?
It is written..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Tim 1:9)
The Law was made for those still not free of sin.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
This sentence is proof that you aren't even trying to have an honest discussion.

That is a form of lying, Hoping. Seriously!

No one has even implied that being obedient to God could even possibly be wrong and yet, you, the man who NEVER SINS AT ALL, shows up here with little gem of stupidity that you knew was false when you typed it!

Hmm! 🤔
That isn't much of an answer.
Your POV is that men cannot be free from sin.
Mine is that men can be free from sin.
Which POV do you suppose is created God?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Citing scripture does make it so.
YOU DIDN'T CITE ANY SCRIPTURE! You simply made the bald claim that your beliefs are Paul's beliefs as though your making the claim is equivalent to making an argument!

But, of course, YOU KNEW THAT WHEN YOU TYPED THAT!!!!!

Is there no end to you arrogance and lies?
I'll agree with Paul instead of your interpretation of Paul.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Hoping. I haven't interpreted anything, I merely quote the passage and let it say what it seems to say. You are the one who reads the doctrine into the text, as I have already pointed out!

It is indeed a part of God's "plot line" but it is a part that is in my past.
What are you even talking about?

The fact that the law and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil both have a ministry of death has nothing to do with YOUR past!

The fact that you don't know hardly anything at all and don't care to learn anything about God's word is a fact of your present!
It is written..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
My sins have been opened, and I received my "wage".
It is written..."For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23)
It is God who demands the payment, not you! The reason the "wage" figure of speech works is because you owe God your life not because God owes you a death. Death is a negation of life, not the other way around. You do have to spend some bit of effort to stay on the same page that God is on when reading the bible.

Seriously, Hoping! Have you not spent even half an hour actually thinking through the things you claim to believe? Don't you care at all whether or not the things you claim to be true make any sense?

I wanted my sins remitted and a good conscience before God. (Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21)
Neither passage was written to nor about the Body of Christ.

No, I haven't nor will I establish that claim.

Pearls before swine and all that.
Water baptism was the way.
For Jews.

I found out afterwards that it is also the way the old man, (me), can be killed and a new creature raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Romans 6:3-7 is not referring to water baptism. You're reading your doctrine into the text again.

Oh, and it is the circumcision done without hands, in putting off the body of sins by the circumcision of Christ. (Col 2:11-13)
You think that water baptism is the circumcision done without hands?

Who was the idiot that taught you that?

It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
As my water baptism accomplished my "immersion" into Christ, (Rom 6:3) the result was the new creature of 2 Cor 5:17.
Again, you're simply reading your doctrine into the text.

The details of His word have provided me the path to eternal life.
No it isn't! Eternal life can be attained by a third grade level understanding of the bible! Salvation is literally the babies milk of the scripture and you haven't gotten that much right! You're still relying on religious rituals to get you saved!

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Your doctrine precludes you from those first, and last, steps. ie... Repentance from sin, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and ultimately, abiding faithfully until the end of time.
You're practicing Messianic Judaism and not even doing that well!

If a wrong doctrine allows a man to live free from sin, can it really be from the devil? (Please be careful not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit here)
You are definitely the most arrogant jerk I have ever met!

Every single time you claim to "live free from sin" you tell another lie. And that idiotic delusion is the very bedrock of your entire theological worldview! Your whole religion is based on a lie THAT YOU KNOW IS FALSE!!!!
I thankfully pray in the name of Jesus Christ, knowing that your words are based on your own beliefs, and you are not personally hoping I commit some devilish sin.
I don't have to hope. Your every post is a sin! Every single post you make here racks up another sin for you to account for on Judgement Day and that you're trusting a bucket of water to wash from your soul.

Given the depth of your delusion, a "devilish sin" (as if there were some other kind) that you can no longer delude yourself into thinking doesn't exist, is your best hope!

What kind of twisted, upside down, insane sort of doctrine gets someone into such a state as that! WOW!

Nope, just the sinners.
Instead of forsaking sin, they have found doctrines that accommodate sin.
If Paul's citing were actually still true, then Jesus too, was a sinner.
You don't believe He was, do you?
Which of us needs a warning about blasphemy? SHEESH!

Jesus does teach that men cannot serve God and serve sin at the same time.
Not in the way your mind twists it, He doesn't.

We can only judge doctrines by their fruit.
What is the result?
That's false, it isn't the only way but for the sake of argument...

Has anyone else besides me lost count of the number of lies Hoping has told on this thread alone?
I don't blame God for the sins of other, or for my own past sins.
It is the devil's handy work through haters of God.
Unresponsive. Did you lose track of what you were reading and the point thereof?

The point is that you use scripture the EXACT same way that Calvinists do when they defend their belief that God predestined some children to get raped. They are just as convinced that their doctrine is right as you are of yours and for the same reason. It's different verses but the same technique.

If you really hated your "flesh", you would leap to the doctrines I present concerning the death of the old man/flesh.
Liar!

That was an INTENTIONAL lie!
I did, and I didn't even know about "hating the flesh"; or knowing that being in Christ could subjugate my worst enemy...me.
Because of the loaded nature of your use of these words, this statement is simply delusional nonsense!

Having said that, how will Gentiles be judged?
What Gentiles?

There are no Gentiles any longer, except in the ethnic sense of the word and even that is merely a negation. Anyone who is not an ethnic Jew is an ethnic Gentile, by definition, but that isn't what the bible is talking about when it makes the distinction because there was such a thing as a proselyte Jew and, regardless of his ethnicity, once one became a Jew he was no longer a Gentile. But none of that applies today...

Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

By their consciences.
This isn't entirely false but it's so pathetically shallow and incomplete! It isn't merely their conscience but the whole of God Himself and His creation that testifies against the unbeliever (Romans 1). Not to mention the fact that a great deal of the judging of unbelievers will be done by believers!

1 Corinthians 6:2a Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

By what standard? The same standard that anyone is judgement by! And, no, it isn't the law! Thinking so is a reflection of some piece of that fruit eaten in the early chapters of God's book. But that's more of those details that you don't care to know anything about!

Can you tell me if stealing or adultery would offend your conscience?
If so, won't the thief and adulterer be judged as a breaker of one of God's Laws, even though they were not a Jew?
Stealing and adultery offends everyone's conscience, even the hardest of murderous criminals. Don't believe me? Go steal something from any random thief on the streets of Chicago and see what happens. Go up to Pablo Escobar's girlfriend and kiss her right on the lips with Pablo standing there and see how long it takes the bullet to pierce both your ears.

Who did Paul say the Law was for?
It is written..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Tim 1:9)
The Law was made for those still not free of sin.
You really do read your doctrine into ever passage you read, don't you?!

I'm not kidding. If the manner in which you handle scripture was valid, ANY doctrine at all could be argued from the bible. You might as well just go believe whatever the hell you want and call it Christianity. Someone will come along and teach you how to defend it biblically and, other than your own personal opinions and doctrinal preferences, you'd have no basis upon which to do anything other than to buy it hook line and sinker.

Clete
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
That isn't much of an answer.
Of course it is.

Your POV is that men cannot be free from sin.
That's stupidity. This was yet another INTENTIONAL lie! You absolutely knew that was NOT my "POV" when you wrote that sentence!

Do you understand what a lie is?

Is lying not a sin in your "POV"?

Mine is that men can be free from sin.
They absolutely can be, just not in the way you mean it. So long as their flesh persists in this fallen world saved men who have been washed in Christ's blood will war with that flesh and will serve the law of God with their mind, but with the flesh the law of sin. So says the Spirit of God Himself through His servant Paul! (Romans 7:25)

Which POV do you suppose is created God?
Oh, definitely mine!
 

Hoping

Well-known member
YOU DIDN'T CITE ANY SCRIPTURE! You simply made the bald claim that your beliefs are Paul's beliefs as though your making the claim is equivalent to making an argument!

But, of course, YOU KNEW THAT WHEN YOU TYPED THAT!!!!!

Is there no end to you arrogance and lies?

Saying it doesn't make it so, Hoping. I haven't interpreted anything, I merely quote the passage and let it say what it seems to say. You are the one who reads the doctrine into the text, as I have already pointed out!


What are you even talking about?

The fact that the law and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil both have a ministry of death has nothing to do with YOUR past!

The fact that you don't know hardly anything at all and don't care to learn anything about God's word is a fact of your present!

It is God who demands the payment, not you! The reason the "wage" figure of speech works is because you owe God your life not because God owes you a death. Death is a negation of life, not the other way around. You do have to spend some bit of effort to stay on the same page that God is on when reading the bible.

Seriously, Hoping! Have you not spent even half an hour actually thinking through the things you claim to believe? Don't you care at all whether or not the things you claim to be true make any sense?


Neither passage was written to nor about the Body of Christ.

No, I haven't nor will I establish that claim.

Pearls before swine and all that.

For Jews.


Romans 6:3-7 is not referring to water baptism. You're reading your doctrine into the text again.


You think that water baptism is the circumcision done without hands?

Who was the idiot that taught you that?


Again, you're simply reading your doctrine into the text.


No it isn't! Eternal life can be attained by a third grade level understanding of the bible! Salvation is literally the babies milk of the scripture and you haven't gotten that much right! You're still relying on religious rituals to get you saved!

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.


You're practicing Messianic Judaism and not even doing that well!


You are definitely the most arrogant jerk I have ever met!

Every single time you claim to "live free from sin" you tell another lie. And that idiotic delusion is the very bedrock of your entire theological worldview! Your whole religion is based on a lie THAT YOU KNOW IS FALSE!!!!

I don't have to hope. Your every post is a sin! Every single post you make here racks up another sin for you to account for on Judgement Day and that you're trusting a bucket of water to wash from your soul.

Given the depth of your delusion, a "devilish sin" (as if there were some other kind) that you can no longer delude yourself into thinking doesn't exist, is your best hope!

What kind of twisted, upside down, insane sort of doctrine gets someone into such a state as that! WOW!


Which of us needs a warning about blasphemy? SHEESH!


Not in the way your mind twists it, He doesn't.


That's false, it isn't the only way but for the sake of argument...

Has anyone else besides me lost count of the number of lies Hoping has told on this thread alone?

Unresponsive. Did you lose track of what you were reading and the point thereof?

The point is that you use scripture the EXACT same way that Calvinists do when they defend their belief that God predestined some children to get raped. They are just as convinced that their doctrine is right as you are of yours and for the same reason. It's different verses but the same technique.


Liar!

That was an INTENTIONAL lie!

Because of the loaded nature of your use of these words, this statement is simply delusional nonsense!


What Gentiles?

There are no Gentiles any longer, except in the ethnic sense of the word and even that is merely a negation. Anyone who is not an ethnic Jew is an ethnic Gentile, by definition, but that isn't what the bible is talking about when it makes the distinction because there was such a thing as a proselyte Jew and, regardless of his ethnicity, once one became a Jew he was no longer a Gentile. But none of that applies today...

Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.


This isn't entirely false but it's so pathetically shallow and incomplete! It isn't merely their conscience but the whole of God Himself and His creation that testifies against the unbeliever (Romans 1). Not to mention the fact that a great deal of the judging of unbelievers will be done by believers!

1 Corinthians 6:2a Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

By what standard? The same standard that anyone is judgement by! And, no, it isn't the law! Thinking so is a reflection of some piece of that fruit eaten in the early chapters of God's book. But that's more of those details that you don't care to know anything about!


Stealing and adultery offends everyone's conscience, even the hardest of murderous criminals. Don't believe me? Go steal something from any random thief on the streets of Chicago and see what happens. Go up to Pablo Escobar's girlfriend and kiss her right on the lips with Pablo standing there and see how long it takes the bullet to pierce both your ears.


You really do read your doctrine into ever passage you read, don't you?!

I'm not kidding. If the manner in which you handle scripture was valid, ANY doctrine at all could be argued from the bible. You might as well just go believe whatever the hell you want and call it Christianity. Someone will come along and teach you how to defend it biblically and, other than your own personal opinions and doctrinal preferences, you'd have no basis upon which to do anything other than to buy it hook line and sinker.

Clete
Too bad we can't agree on these topics.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Of course it is.
That's stupidity. This was yet another INTENTIONAL lie! You absolutely knew that was NOT my "POV" when you wrote that sentence!
Do you understand what a lie is?
Is lying not a sin in your "POV"?
Can men be non-sinners?
They absolutely can be, just not in the way you mean it. So long as their flesh persists in this fallen world saved men who have been washed in Christ's blood will war with that flesh and will serve the law of God with their mind, but with the flesh the law of sin. So says the Spirit of God Himself through His servant Paul! (Romans 7:25)
Rom 7:24-25 were already answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Unfortunately, you don't feel that the means of that death is necessary for Gentiles.
Gal 5:24 strengthens my point..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No flesh(ly mind), no vile affections, and no evil lusts results in not sinning.
Thanks be to God !
Skin and bones don't do anything the mind isn't initializing and affirming.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Can men be non-sinners?
Not while in the flesh, no!

Otherwise, grace is not needed and the cross was unnecessary!

That, in fact, that is a major lesson God was teaching mankind during the dispensation of law. Seeking to be righteous in the flesh is legalism for the law has to do with the flesh. Just as circumcision is a cutting off of the physical flesh, so is the law a cutting off of fleshly desires. That's why circumcision is THE symbol of the law.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.​

But even the dispensation of law was undergirded by grace, for Abraham was counted as righteous before he was circumcised and the covenant God made with him was done while Abraham wasn't even unconscious and it was God alone who passed between the pieces of the sacrifice (Gen. 15). This was on purpose (obviously) because there's no way for any mere man to follow the law perfectly. One could try really hard and some would succeed better than others but regardless of how many doves, lambs, goats, calves and bulls were slaughtered there's just not any such thing as a perfect human being that has inherited the sin nature. But God prefers mercy over sacrifice and so, because God knew Calvary was coming, He could justly allow grace to fill in the gaps, for want of a better phrase.

For now, during this dispensation of grace, the law (i.e. our flesh) has nothing to do with it other than to convict us of sin and bring us to Christ. Once we believe and call upon Him then we are baptized (spiritually) into Him and His righteousness is imputed to us. Our righteousness is by faith and when we see Him face to face, then and only then will our faith will become sight.

Rom 7:24-25 were already answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Why do you repeat the same "argument" as though I haven't already refuted it?

Remember when I pointed out that Romans 6 comes BEFORE Romans 7? It does not come before and is not in answer to Romans 7.

Besides that, even if it were, it is not teaching what you suggest! You are reading your doctrine into the text! Just because we no longer live our lives in service to sin, does not mean we live perfectly sinless lives where we never do anything wrong!

Unfortunately, you don't feel that the means of that death is necessary for Gentiles.
There aren't any Gentiles, Hoping!

What ever saves one, the same saves everyone else.
Gal 5:24 strengthens my point..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
It only strengthens your point if you read your doctrine into the text just like the Calvinists do when they use the bible to defend the idea that the rape of babies was in God's plan all along!

No flesh(ly mind), no vile affections, and no evil lusts results in not sinning.
It is the concept of "by faith" that you are ignoring.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”​

If the way you interpret scripture is valid then why are we still physically alive given what this verse says? It blatantly says that "it is no longer I who live", does it not?

Fortunately, Paul makes it explicit in this passage that "the life which I now live in the flesh I live BY FAITH in the Son of God". It is by faith that these things are true, Hoping, not by the flesh! Paul spends his whole ministry tying the law and the flesh together. It is the law that is fleshly, not faith! Thus, he states emphatically that he does "not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, (i.e. through the flesh) then Christ died in vain.” Thus, if what you're here trying to sell us is true, then there's no need for grace at all and there wasn't ever any need for Christ to die!

Your doctrine literally turns Christianity upside down and shakes out all the parts of it that are important! There isn't any chance at all that you're saved!
Thanks be to God !
Skin and bones don't do anything the mind isn't initializing and affirming.
So you just don't believe that what Paul calls "the flesh" even exists then because the Spirit of God Himself taught the exact opposite of what you just claimed...

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.​

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.​
All of that was written in the PRESENT TENSE. If Paul taught what you are trying to sell here, he would have to have written, "For I know that what was in me (that was, in my flesh) nothing good dwelt; for to will was present with me, but how to perform what is good I could not find." But he didn't write that!

WHY?

Because the fact is that our flesh has not yet been redeemed, that's why. And so long as that remains the case, every man woman and child in Christ will read and identify with the things Paul says so clearly in Romans chapter 7 because that is the Christian life. An unbeliever would never have any reason for such thoughts to occur to him.

You Cannot Live the Christian Life


Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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