What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?

[Derf]

I'm starting this thread to keep from clogging up another one (What is the Gospel? started by [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION]) with rabbit trails.

These are two responses I had to a post or two in the other thread, and I wanted to answer them without hijacking Sonnet's.

How do you know that?

Because the Scripture tells us. Hebrews 9:27 1 Peter 4:5

If the original death was the result of Adam's sin, and death was the penalty promised to Adam for such sin, why would he need to be resurrected, just to be judged again, and...what? more death?

Adam's death was physical. There remains the punishment element, and the bowing down to their Creator. Open admission of guilt perhaps.

And if every single one of Adam's progeny is also headed toward death, whether for their own sins or Adam's, because the wages of sin is death, why do we need a resurrection, just to be judged again, and...more death?

There is an alternative for those who believe, and that's LIFE. The unjust are raised to damnation, and the just to life.

But if Christ really does offer peace to mankind--reconciliation with God by taking our punishment, and if, after He dies and rises, every single one of Adam's progeny really is resurrected, can we put those two with that two and make four? Can we not say that Christ's resurrection actually defeated DEATH, and not just SOME DEATH, for Adam's race?

No, I don't think we can say that.

I acknowledge there is a "second death", but is it of the same type as the first death? Or is it a type that lasts forever--a deathless death? Mainstream Christianity says the latter. And the bible seems to back it up. I kind of want to know why.

Interesting topic, but way more than can fit in this thread, I'm thinking.

At this point, I'm trying to focus on the Gospel. And I have a dog nipping at my heels trying to tear me to shreds here already. Perhaps you could start a thread, Derf. I would love to get a better grasp of what you're thinking on this.

---

Hi GT. If I can jump in on Sonnet's and AMR's interchange, you can certainly comment on my post.

I didn't notice. Thanks!

(my bolding in your quote) I don't disagree that there is an aspect of the resurrection that manifests itself in our current lives. But the "first" resurrection as described by John in the following verses is clearly not that, unless you can chop off a spirit's head:

[Rev 20:4 KJV]
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[Rev 20:5 KJV]
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
[Rev 20:6 KJV]
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Look a little more carefully, it is a vision of what would happen.

The only way a person would not be part of the second death is if they were part of the first resurrection. The only way a person can get out of the second death is to be saved, and that must be the first resurrection. There just is no other way.

Since you acknowledge that the "first resurrection" participants are not harmed by the second death (from Rev 20:6), and you acknowledge that Rev 20 is talking about the first resurrection (from Rev 20:5), then you must either acknowledge (from Rev 20:4) that the "first resurrection" participants have physically died prior to their resurrection (thus the need for it), or you must acknowledge that there are a bunch of Christians running around without heads. I haven't noticed the latter, but perhaps I'm going to the wrong churches.

We die physically but our spirits live on to either be with Jesus or to go to prison/hell.

The beheaded is a vision of what would happen to those who love Jesus to the point of death. That is what happens to them physically, but their spirit lives on in heaven with Jesus after the death of their physical bodies.

Plus, if we are already resurrected "in spirit", but we still die physically (I don't think you will deny such), then we still need some kind of physical resurrection, unless our hope is in vain.

Of course, the physical resurrection is where we are given new physical bodies.
Some will be raised to eternal life with Jesus, and the rest will be raised to eternal condemnation in the lake of fire, the second death.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

That gospel chapter [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION] quoted numerous times is clear that we are being saved from death, and not from some other thing. Which I think we can all admit is good news. I would suggest it's the very best news, and worthy to be called "The Gospel".

We are being saved from a spiritual death in hell.

And if we need some kind of resurrection after the first resurrection, which you allocate to a spiritual one, what would it be called? Maybe "second resurrection"? Revelation doesn't name anything by that title, but ch 20 continues with a description of a second resurrection, putting the "first" in proper context.

You just said Revelation doesn't name anything as second resurrection, but then you acknowledge there is one. Could you clarify why you first said there was no second resurrection?

If, however, the first is a spiritual one, and a second one (physical one) is needed, then the participants of the first are being judged after the second, which is clearly a physical one, after they have "lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years", to see if they are in the book of life (Rev 20:15). Does that make sense to you?

Derf

Good question. Some will be judged who came out of prison/hell perhaps, and the saved will receive their inheritance, while the others are cast into the lake of fire.
I am glad for deep discussions on the Bible, so please elaborate on why you agree or do not.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Ephesians 6:8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

For now, I'm just starting the thread as a placeholder, without my own comments. I'll be back...

 

[jamie]

The second resurrection is for those the Father didn't call during their lifetime.

This is the main resurrection.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life." (Revelation 20:12)

The Greek for books is biblion from which we get the English word bible.

Those in the second resurrection are saved by grace through their faith.

Faith is active evidence of belief.

Those who reject Christ's salvation will die a second time.

 

[Derf]

How do you know that?

Because the Scripture tells us. Hebrews 9:27 1 Peter 4:5

Is it possible those scriptures only apply after Jesus became man? I don't know the answer, but I think the question is worth asking.

If the original death was the result of Adam's sin, and death was the penalty promised to Adam for such sin, why would he need to be resurrected, just to be judged again, and...what? more death?

Adam's death was physical. There remains the punishment element, and the bowing down to their Creator. Open admission of guilt perhaps.

And if every single one of Adam's progeny is also headed toward death, whether for their own sins or Adam's, because the wages of sin is death, why do we need a resurrection, just to be judged again, and...more death?

There is an alternative for those who believe, and that's LIFE. The unjust are raised to damnation, and the just to life.

Again, if the unjust have already died, then why raise them to kill them again, in a much more brutal fashion, no less. Certainly the LIFE alternative is preferred, and makes sense. But the damnation part needs to make sense, as well. And it doesn't without some other shenanigans, like envisioning two different kinds of life, one physical and one spiritual. That may indeed be the right answer, but it's worth a question or two.

But if Christ really does offer peace to mankind--reconciliation with God by taking our punishment, and if, after He dies and rises, every single one of Adam's progeny really is resurrected, can we put those two with that two and make four? Can we not say that Christ's resurrection actually defeated DEATH, and not just SOME DEATH, for Adam's race?

No, I don't think we can say that.

Why not? If all are raised, is "death" not "defeated"? And if "death" is now defeated, what remaineth for those that refuse life?

I acknowledge there is a "second death", but is it of the same type as the first death? Or is it a type that lasts forever--a deathless death? Mainstream Christianity says the latter. And the bible seems to back it up. I kind of want to know why.

Interesting topic, but way more than can fit in this thread, I'm thinking.

... Perhaps you could start a thread, Derf. I would love to get a better grasp of what you're thinking on this.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

 

[glorydaz]

Is it possible those scriptures only apply after Jesus became man? I don't know the answer, but I think the question is worth asking.

Again, if the unjust have already died, then why raise them to kill them again, in a much more brutal fashion, no less. Certainly the LIFE alternative is preferred, and makes sense. But the damnation part needs to make sense, as well. And it doesn't without some other shenanigans, like envisioning two different kinds of life, one physical and one spiritual. That may indeed be the right answer, but it's worth a question or two.

Why not? If all are raised, is "death" not "defeated"? And if "death" is now defeated, what remaineth for those that refuse life?
I'd be interested in your thoughts...

I think we have a text that tells us more about this subject than many realize.

Acts 17:29-31KJV
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

I often refer to the time before the Cross and the time after the Cross...and the fence in the middle. Some are stuck on the wrong side, and they will be judged according to their works. Is there a strict rule for that how that will take place? I don't see that there is. God, alone, can see into the hearts of men. Men have a conscience, and many have lived well according to that. I know people who love and trust the Lord who don't know much more than that. I'm sure it's true of others down through time from the beginning. I don't buy the idea that men's hearts are wicked continually....although verses can be taken out of context to say that. God always has cared more about the heart condition than the deeds of the flesh.

I think v. 29, above, is a reminder that God is not as we might imagine. He shall do right, but right in His own eyes....not in ours. There are many mansions, Derf, who are we to know?

 

[God's Truth]

Everyone is judged as condemned, until they come to Jesus to get saved.

We are judged before we are saved to get saved.

We are judged after we die and go to either prison/hell or with Jesus in heaven.

We will be judged at the resurrection. The saved will be judged to be raised to eternal life.

Those who are not saved will be judged to eternal damnation.

The saved will meet Jesus in the air and the damned will suffer God's wrath that is coming on the earth.

The damned will receive their final judgment and be thrown in the lake of fire.

The saved will receive their final judgment of eternal life on the new earth with God and Jesus.

 

[Derf]

I think we have a text that tells us more about this subject than many realize.

Acts 17:29-31KJV
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

I often refer to the time before the Cross and the time after the Cross...and the fence in the middle. Some are stuck on the wrong side, and they will be judged according to their works. Is there a strict rule for that how that will take place? I don't see that there is. God, alone, can see into the hearts of men. Men have a conscience, and many have lived well according to that. I know people who love and trust the Lord who don't know much more than that. I'm sure it's true of others down through time from the beginning. I don't buy the idea that men's hearts are wicked continually....although verses can be taken out of context to say that. God always has cared more about the heart condition than the deeds of the flesh.

I think v. 29, above, is a reminder that God is not as we might imagine. He shall do right, but right in His own eyes....not in ours. There are many mansions, Derf, who are we to know?

I'm not trying to determine who is damned and who is saved, whether before the cross or after. But I'm curious about how it looks to be saved before the cross vs after. Is the approach to judgment different? It seems like it isn't--those that are saved before the cross (and I think there are some) and those that are saved after are surely still saved by the blood of Jesus, and not their own works. And those that are not saved before the cross, as well as those that are not saved after, will be judged according to their works.

If God "winked" at the sins before the cross, but doesn't now, then it does seem like there is a divide, as you stated. What that divide consists of is up for discussion, as your Acts passage tells us very little, except that now there is more responsibility than before to do something (repent) with the information we've been given. I think that bolsters, slightly, my case for greater judgment for those that reject Christ rather than just for "normal" sins.


God may not be as we imagine, but He is as He tells us, if we can really understand it. And he will do right in His eyes, but He also wants us to be doing right as in His eyes. Thus we should know something about what right looks like in His eyes.

Just as we shouldn't be punished for sins that are not ours, we also shouldn't be punished beyond what He tells us. At the same time, there are definite federal headship issues that play out in this discussion. Adam's sin definitely brought death on his progeny, and Jesus' headship accounts His righteousness to us.

So, for justice's sake, is the physical death an adequate punishment? Is it what God told Adam and Eve would happen if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? If it is, then why does Revelation threaten us with a "second death"? If not, then how did it (physical death) come about?

Is our punishment for sin two events? A physical and a spiritual death, both encapsulated in the one threat?

What is spiritual death? Many believers think that we are dead spiritually before we are redeemed, but that terminology is confusing if the 2nd death is a spiritual death--then unbelievers actually have 2 spiritual deaths and one physical death to consider. Again, it seems like there is more punishment than was promised in the Garden. Isn't that unjust? Would God allow such injustice?

My thought is that God is 100% just, and therefore we don't understand even our own terminology, much less the bible's.

 

[jamie]

What is spiritual death?

Jesus died to pay the penalty for spiritual death.

Anyone can die physically, even newborn babies.

Physical death is temporary, it's referred to as sleep.

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. " (1 Thessalonians 4:13)

Our hope is a resurrection, of which there are two.

 

[Derf]

(my bolding in your quote) I don't disagree that there is an aspect of the resurrection that manifests itself in our current lives. But the "first" resurrection as described by John in the following verses is clearly not that, unless you can chop off a spirit's head:

[Rev 20:4 KJV]
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[Rev 20:5 KJV]
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
[Rev 20:6 KJV]
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Look a little more carefully, it is a vision of what would happen.

Could you explain what you mean? What "would" happen in a contingent fashion? If so, what is the contingency? If Ch 20 is just a continuation of the vision explained in Rev 4:1, then it is what "must" happen, and doesn't seem to be contingent.

The only way a person would not be part of the second death is if they were part of the first resurrection. The only way a person can get out of the second death is to be saved, and that must be the first resurrection. There just is no other way.

I'm not sure I agree with you fully here. Here's the other possibility: If the second resurrection includes everybody that didn't specifically believe in Christ (not those that "have the testimony of Jesus Christ", from Rev 19:10), including those who didn't have the opportunity (either from tribes that were unreached before they died or from before His incarnation), then it's possible that a final call to believe could be issued. This is pure speculation, and the text doesn't expressly support it. I don't think the text denies it, either, but I could be wrong (more on this later).

This is where I want to bring logic in and ask what the purpose of the (2nd) resurrection is for? If only to re-animate their bodies for a greater punishment (which is what it seems), why is the greater punishment necessary? Isn't "death" enough"? Where did we ever get told that a physical death is not enough punishment, and that unbelievers need an additional punishment?

If the second death is more of a spiritual death anyway, why re-animate their bodies at all? One possibility is to give them the chance to hear the gospel and accept it, possibly in the face of great torment being experienced by the devil, the beast, and the false prophet (Rev 20:10). But again, why couldn't that be done in some spiritual state? Why do they need bodies, unless this is the only way those people can have any cognizance--is to have their bodies re-animated? Is this evidence that a disembodied spiritual state does not exist?

Since you acknowledge that the "first resurrection" participants are not harmed by the second death (from Rev 20:6), and you acknowledge that Rev 20 is talking about the first resurrection (from Rev 20:5), then you must either acknowledge (from Rev 20:4) that the "first resurrection" participants have physically died prior to their resurrection (thus the need for it), or you must acknowledge that there are a bunch of Christians running around without heads. I haven't noticed the latter, but perhaps I'm going to the wrong churches.

We die physically but our spirits live on to either be with Jesus or to go to prison/hell.

The beheaded is a vision of what would happen to those who love Jesus to the point of death. That is what happens to them physically, but their spirit lives on in heaven with Jesus after the death of their physical bodies.

The language seems stronger than just a possibility of something that could happen. I think Rev 4:1 speaks against this interpretation, but I might have missed the thing you referenced above.

Plus, if we are already resurrected "in spirit", but we still die physically (I don't think you will deny such), then we still need some kind of physical resurrection, unless our hope is in vain.

Of course, the physical resurrection is where we are given new physical bodies.
Some will be raised to eternal life with Jesus, and the rest will be raised to eternal condemnation in the lake of fire, the second death.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Is vs 14, then, an example of wasted effort by God? To give "new" physical bodies to unbelievers just to have them thrown in the fire?

That gospel chapter [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION] quoted numerous times is clear that we are being saved from death, and not from some other thing. Which I think we can all admit is good news. I would suggest it's the very best news, and worthy to be called "The Gospel".

We are being saved from a spiritual death in hell.

So, to rehash a bit, you think hell is a "spiritual death". Why then do you think unbelievers are "resurrected" physically to be killed spiritually? This resurrection must not be a "spiritual" resurrection (if such is even possible), as the "spiritual death" hasn't occurred for them, yet--they weren't "spiritually dead" before the time they are cast into hell. Doesn't this mean their bodies are resurrected physically? Then they must be either dying physically a second time when cast into the fire, or they aren't dying physically--they stay alive forever, physically suffering, and we define this a "spiritual death".

I'm not against the idea that there is a new thing that is called "second death". If "death" is completely destroyed, then a "second death" afterward must be a new thing. Maybe, once each person is resurrected, the old type of death is no more available for punishment, and each person will live, physically, forever. And maybe that "spiritual death" is what happens to an eternal soul/body combo when its spirit is taken away from it. (Ecc 12:7)

And if we need some kind of resurrection after the first resurrection, which you allocate to a spiritual one, what would it be called? Maybe "second resurrection"? Revelation doesn't name anything by that title, but ch 20 continues with a description of a second resurrection, putting the "first" in proper context.

You just said Revelation doesn't name anything as second resurrection, but then you acknowledge there is one. Could you clarify why you first said there was no second resurrection?

Just because something is not named doesn't mean it isn't talked about (like the Trinity, for instance). But inferences abound, and a "second death" infers a "first death". A "first resurrection" infers a "second resurrection".

If, however, the first is a spiritual one, and a second one (physical one) is needed, then the participants of the first are being judged after the second, which is clearly a physical one, after they have "lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years", to see if they are in the book of life (Rev 20:15). Does that make sense to you?

Derf

Good question. Some will be judged who came out of prison/hell perhaps, and the saved will receive their inheritance, while the others are cast into the lake of fire.
I am glad for deep discussions on the Bible, so please elaborate on why you agree or do not.

I have two options I can think of, if the purpose is only to judge at that time.
1. The first resurrection may only apply to those that were physically subjected to the persecutions of the beast and were faithful through it all. Their reward is great (and sooner), because they were subjected to much. And their judgment is easier, because they were obviously faithful to Christ with their whole lives. Thus, the second resurrection has a purpose--to judge those that are not of the first category, which would include un-persecuted or barely-persecuted Christians, maybe persecuted Christians from before the beast's time, old testament saints, old testament non-saints, unreached people, and rejecters of the gospel. The judgment could go either way, meaning some will enter into "life", and others will be cast into the lake of fire. There are 2 bases for these judgments: 1. their works, and 2. whether they are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Rev 20:12)
2. The first resurrection applies to all believers, and the second is all unbelievers. All that partake of the 2nd resurrection are then cast into hell (I think this is the traditional approach).

If the purpose is to offer an alternative to eternal hellfire, then even if #2 applies, there is still the possibility that pardon is going to be offered to those that do something ("believe" or bow the knee to Christ, or something). Other scriptures don't seem to allow for this option (like the sheep and goats judgment, or the 10 virgins, in Matt 25).

If the second resurrectees all are thrown into hell, then it seems superfluous to call it a judgment, as the judgment will have already been made when they weren't resurrected in the first resurrection. Except, perhaps, if the judgment is to determine how much punishment each must endure. But a "lake of fire" seems like a one-size-fits-all punishment to me, and if the recipients have differing amounts of guilt, it seems like it should be in the length of punishment, if the severity is all the same.

 

[God's Truth]

Could you explain what you mean? What "would" happen in a contingent fashion? If so, what is the contingency? If Ch 20 is just a continuation of the vision explained in Rev 4:1, then it is what "must" happen, and doesn't seem to be contingent.

Excuse me. I should have said what was going to happen. I have a lot going on around me so sometimes, since I don't have an educated writer to do the job for me, I make typing errors.

I'm not sure I agree with you fully here. Here's the other possibility: If the second resurrection includes everybody that didn't specifically believe in Christ (not those that "have the testimony of Jesus Christ", from Rev 19:10), including those who didn't have the opportunity (either from tribes that were unreached before they died or from before His incarnation), then it's possible that a final call to believe could be issued. This is pure speculation, and the text doesn't expressly support it. I don't think the text denies it, either, but I could be wrong (more on this later).

When you speak about tribes and people who never heard...they hear the truth after they die.
So it can't be about them.

This is where I want to bring logic in and ask what the purpose of the (2nd) resurrection is for? If only to re-animate their bodies for a greater punishment (which is what it seems), why is the greater punishment necessary?

Because of Adam all die, because of Jesus all will life, some to everlasting punishment, some to everlasting life.

Isn't "death" enough"? Where did we ever get told that a physical death is not enough punishment, and that unbelievers need an additional punishment?

Again, we will all be raised.

The second death will be the death of the body and the spirit.

If the second death is more of a spiritual death anyway, why re-animate their bodies at all? One possibility is to give them the chance to hear the gospel and accept it, possibly in the face of great torment being experienced by the devil, the beast, and the false prophet (Rev 20:10). But again, why couldn't that be done in some spiritual state? Why do they need bodies, unless this is the only way those people can have any cognizance--is to have their bodies re-animated? Is this evidence that a disembodied spiritual state does not exist?

No, our spirits live on in conscientiousness after the death of the body.
Again, through Adam all die, through Jesus all are resurrected. Jesus is the resurrection.

The language seems stronger than just a possibility of something that could happen. I think Rev 4:1 speaks against this interpretation, but I might have missed the thing you referenced above.

Is vs 14, then, an example of wasted effort by God? To give "new" physical bodies to unbelievers just to have them thrown in the fire?


So, to rehash a bit, you think hell is a "spiritual death".

There is hell after the death of the body for some, and a final hell in the lake of fire.

There is also a type of spiritual hell/death after Adam sinned.

Why then do you think unbelievers are "resurrected" physically to be killed spiritually?physically and spiritually.


This resurrection must not be a "spiritual" resurrection (if such is even possible), as the "spiritual death" hasn't occurred for them, yet--they weren't "spiritually dead" before the time they are cast into hell. Doesn't this mean their bodies are resurrected physically? Then they must be either dying physically a second time when cast into the fire, or they aren't dying physically--they stay alive forever, physically suffering, and we define this a "spiritual death".

I'm not against the idea that there is a new thing that is called "second death". If "death" is completely destroyed, then a "second death" afterward must be a new thing. Maybe, once each person is resurrected, the old type of death is no more available for punishment, and each person will live, physically, forever. And maybe that "spiritual death" is what happens to an eternal soul/body combo when its spirit is taken away from it. (Ecc 12:7)

If I am understanding you correctly, then what you said last sounds right.

Just because something is not named doesn't mean it isn't talked about (like the Trinity, for instance). But inferences abound, and a "second death" infers a "first death". A "first resurrection" infers a "second resurrection".

Right.

I have two options I can think of, if the purpose is only to judge at that time.
1. The first resurrection may only apply to those that were physically subjected to the persecutions of the beast and were faithful through it all. Their reward is great (and sooner),

No, because all who have part in the first resurrection will not be affected by the second death. That could only mean one must be saved.

because they were subjected to much. And their judgment is easier, because they were obviously faithful to Christ with their whole lives. Thus, the second resurrection has a purpose--to judge those that are not of the first category, which would include un-persecuted or barely-persecuted Christians, maybe persecuted Christians from before the beast's time, old testament saints, old testament non-saints, unreached people, and rejecters of the gospel. The judgment could go either way, meaning some will enter into "life", and others will be cast into the lake of fire. There are 2 bases for these judgments: 1. their works, and 2. whether they are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Rev 20:12)
2. The first resurrection applies to all believers, and the second is all unbelievers. All that partake of the 2nd resurrection are then cast into hell (I think this is the traditional approach).

If I am understanding you correctly, it sounds correct.

If the purpose is to offer an alternative to eternal hellfire, then even if #2 applies, there is still the possibility that pardon is going to be offered to those that do something ("believe" or bow the knee to Christ, or something). Other scriptures don't seem to allow for this option (like the sheep and goats judgment, or the 10 virgins, in Matt 25).

Right.

If the second resurrectees all are thrown into hell, then it seems superfluous to call it a judgment, as the judgment will have already been made when they weren't resurrected in the first resurrection. Except, perhaps, if the judgment is to determine how much punishment each must endure.

Hold that thought, because there is scripture about more and less punishment; therefore, the question for this would be 'when'. I have been longing to study that more with someone such as yourself, someone who considers all scripture.

But a "lake of fire" seems like a one-size-fits-all punishment to me, and if the recipients have differing amounts of guilt, it seems like it should be in the length of punishment, if the severity is all the same.

So then, with that in mind, the lesser and greater punishment must be before the final punishment. I am thinking that this is where Catholics get purgatory, perhaps? Let's keep discussing this.

 

[Derf]

Excuse me. I should have said what was going to happen. I have a lot going on around me so sometimes, since I don't have an educated writer to do the job for me, I make typing errors.


When you speak about tribes and people who never heard...they hear the truth after they die.
So it can't be about them.

Do they "hear" after they die in some capacity that they may accept the truth and be saved by it?

Also, do you think that those who have never heard "hear" while they are dead? Or can they only "hear" after they have been resurrected? This moves into the subject of what it's like to be dead. Can dead people actually hear and talk and feel? Is there such a thing as a spiritual life without a body? This came up in the Eternal Conscious Torment discussion. I thought [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] made some good points. (Rosie, if you read this, I'm not trying to duplicate the ECT thread, and I'm mostly considering ECT as a foregone conclusion for this topic, but if you want to weigh in on what death means, I'd like to hear it.)

Because of Adam all die, because of Jesus all will life, some to everlasting punishment, some to everlasting life.


Again, we will all be raised.

You say, "because of Jesus all will live." Does that mean you think Jesus' death is applicable to all? This is something I've been considering for awhile, and I'm not sure where I am with it. If "because of Jesus all will live", then either His death isn't necessary for a resurrection, or His death applies to all.

But, as you recognize an additional determiner (between everlasting life and everlasting death), the only determiner I can figure out is "belief in Jesus Christ". What that means can also be discussed, but I'd rather not do it here, at least not yet. Jesus stated a determiner in Mar 3:28-29 (discussed some below) in a negative sense. I reconcile His statements about blasphemy being the unforgivable sin versus unbelief in this way: that rejection of Jesus Christ is the same as blasphemy against the Spirit, who convicts us of the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.

The second death will be the death of the body and the spirit.

No, our spirits live on in conscientiousness after the death of the body.
Again, through Adam all die, through Jesus all are resurrected. Jesus is the resurrection.

There is hell after the death of the body for some, and a final hell in the lake of fire.

There is also a type of spiritual hell/death after Adam sinned.

If, as Ecc 12:7 says, the "spirit" returns to God after the death of the body, and if that applies to all people, then do the "spirits" of unbelievers return to God? If they do, does it not seem like there is no difference in how unbelievers and believers are handled, in which case, either unbelievers enjoy the benefits of being with God between 1st death and 1st resurrection/2nd death, or believers are not conscious during this time.

No, because all who have part in the first resurrection will not be affected by the second death. That could only mean one must be saved.

But there's nothing in Rev 20 that says the first is inclusive of ALL believers. The best we have is from I Thess 4:16, I think, but that's distinguishing between dead and alive believers only, not different categories of dead believers. Some people think this is a rapture passage, and if so, it would not apply to the Rev 20 resurrections. I'm not so sure if the rapture application makes sense, but it at least relieves the tension somewhat, but it cause some, too, introducing a "third" resurrection.

If I am understanding you correctly, it sounds correct.

I was trying to present two options, of which only 1 could be considered correct.

Hold that thought, because there is scripture about more and less punishment; therefore, the question for this would be 'when'. I have been longing to study that more with someone such as yourself, someone who considers all scripture.

Here's a site that gives a list of verses supporting greater or lesser punishment for sins (and rewards for obedience, too): https://www.thoughtco.com/degrees-of-sin-and-punishment-in-hell-701955

I'm not convinced that these are all after death. The pharisees and other leaders, for instance, could have been punished greatly (crucified or taken as slaves, perhaps) when Jerusalem was destroyed.

So then, with that in mind, the lesser and greater punishment must be before the final punishment. I am thinking that this is where Catholics get purgatory, perhaps? Let's keep discussing this.

I suppose that a lesser and greater punishment could be effected even in the lake of fire, but it doesn't seem like it to me.

But I'm not too convinced about the lesser and greater punishments before the final one. It makes it sound like the punishments are dispensed prior to the judgment. Are there now multiple judgment times? One after physical death, and one after the second resurrection? If not, how are punishments determined for the lesser and greater punishments?

I think we all would be happy with a sliding punishment scale, to take into account people like Hitler and Stalin and their deeds. But these verses seem to indicate something different:
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [Mar 3:28-29 KJV]

Mark makes it look like everything will be forgiven. Matthew is slightly different, talking about the types of sins rather than the number of them, making it look more like a contingent thing:
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. [Mat 12:31-32 KJV]

What does it mean to have ones sins forgiven? The following seems to say that it looks like healing. So resurrection may be a sign of sins being forgiven:
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. [Mar 2:9-11 KJV]

 

[God's Truth]

Do they "hear" after they die in some capacity that they may accept the truth and be saved by it?

They can.

Just because someone hears the truth though it does not mean they will accept it.

Jesus preached the gospel to those who were dead and in their spirit in prison/hell, so that they could live according to God in the spirit.

Also, do you think that those who have never heard "hear" while they are dead? Or can they only "hear" after they have been resurrected?

After the resurrection it will be too late.

Jesus will come again NOT TO BEAR SIN. So if he is not going to bear sin, how then will they repent and be saved?

This moves into the subject of what it's like to be dead. Can dead people actually hear and talk and feel?

Yes they can.

You say, "because of Jesus all will live." Does that mean you think Jesus' death is applicable to all? This is something I've been considering for awhile, and I'm not sure where I am with it. If "because of Jesus all will live", then either His death isn't necessary for a resurrection, or His death applies to all.

Jesus says that he is the resurrection.

All will live again because of Jesus.

Not all will have eternal life with him though, some will be raised to eternal condemnation.

But, as you recognize an additional determiner (between everlasting life and everlasting death), the only determiner I can figure out is "belief in Jesus Christ". What that means can also be discussed, but I'd rather not do it here, at least not yet. Jesus stated a determiner in Mar 3:28-29 (discussed some below) in a negative sense. I reconcile His statements about blasphemy being the unforgivable sin versus unbelief in this way: that rejection of Jesus Christ is the same as blasphemy against the Spirit, who convicts us of the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.

The Holy Spirit gave proof of the Truth. So then, to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when one actually lived among the Spirit giving proof that Jesus' testimony was true. For instance, Jesus did many miracles while he walked the earth and was called Beelzebul. It would probably be a lot harder for someone to blasphemy in such a way today.

If, as Ecc 12:7 says, the "spirit" returns to God after the death of the body, and if that applies to all people, then do the "spirits" of unbelievers return to God? If they do, does it not seem like there is no difference in how unbelievers and believers are handled, in which case, either unbelievers enjoy the benefits of being with God between 1st death and 1st resurrection/2nd death, or believers are not conscious during this time.

All spirits return to God and He does with them what is right. That might mean someone goes to prison/hell.

But there's nothing in Rev 20 that says the first is inclusive of ALL believers. The best we have is from I Thess 4:16, I think, but that's distinguishing between dead and alive believers only, not different categories of dead believers. Some people think this is a rapture passage, and if so, it would not apply to the Rev 20 resurrections. I'm not so sure if the rapture application makes sense, but it at least relieves the tension somewhat, but it cause some, too, introducing a "third" resurrection.

I am not sure what you are saying there.

I was trying to present two options, of which only 1 could be considered correct.



Here's a site that gives a list of verses supporting greater or lesser punishment for sins (and rewards for obedience, too): https://www.thoughtco.com/degrees-of-sin-and-punishment-in-hell-701955

I'm not convinced that these are all after death. The pharisees and other leaders, for instance, could have been punished greatly (crucified or taken as slaves, perhaps) when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Well the scriptures about more and less punishments were about Jesus coming back. I don't have time right now to talk about this but hope to be back on tonight.

I suppose that a lesser and greater punishment could be effected even in the lake of fire, but it doesn't seem like it to me.

The lake of fire is final. I will finish answering when I get back. Sorry but I want to give it the attention it deserves.

 

[Derf]

Hi jamie. Sorry it took so long to respond. This TOL thing can really be a full time job.

Jesus died to pay the penalty for spiritual death.

Was the penalty for spiritual death a physical death? Isn't that what Jesus did? Surely He didn't die spiritually, did He?

Maybe you could offer your definition for what "spiritual death" means, since you gave something of a definition of "physical death" below.

Anyone can die physically, even newborn babies.

I assume you mean that any physical person (and animal) can die physically. Else, can angels die physically?

Physical death is temporary, it's referred to as sleep.

So, if I were to die, and nobody did anything about it, would I "wake up" after some amount of time? What else would allow us to define any kind of "death" as "temporary"? But death might be considered permanent, if someone has to do something about it to reverse it. Like Jesus did for Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc. Lazarus was expected to be resurrected at the last day (John 11:24), but what does Martha say that? And why did Job say something similar (Job 19:25-26)? Job was counting on the actions of his "redeemer", which seems to indicate that somebody had to do something to reverse death.

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. " (1 Thessalonians 4:13)

Our hope is a resurrection, of which there are two.

Are both resurrections celebratory (happy) events? why or why not?

What do you think triggers each resurrection? Is there a legal principle at work? A physical principle?

 

[jamie]

Derf, we need to realize this physical creation is temporary by design.

And physical life is temporary by design.

"it is appointed for men to die once." (Hebrews 9:27)

Why?

Because character cannot be created, it must be developed.

Lucifer was created perfect, but he later sinned. (Ezekiel 28:15)

He sinned because had not developed moral character.

Humans were designed to sin and all adults have done so.

Why?

So that we could repent of sin and develop moral character.

However, most people don't and that is not a problem.

The primary time of development is described in Revelation 20.

But the Father chooses some in this life to prepare to serve in the Great Day.

Those who are prepared when Christ shows himself physically will serve with him.

 

[jamie]

Isn't that what Jesus did? Surely He didn't die spiritually, did He?

He did. Jesus died physically meaning he stopped breathing and he died spiritually.

It has been appointed for everyone to die once.

This death can be physical with a cessation of breath or it can be spiritual with a cessation of sin.

Jesus died spiritually not because he sinned but he died spiritually for many.

"Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." (Hebrews 9:28)

We are born spiritually dead, which means we lack eternal life.

Eternal life is a gift from God, not something we have by nature.

Those who have died spiritually by baptism are raised a new person.

This new person will be given eternal life.

We will shed this physical body by a physical death.

The Father determines the time.

It can be in this age or at the appearing of Christ.

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51)

Those with eternal life sleep, but they can't die.

"To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." (Hebrews 9:28)

 

[oatmeal]

Death is the absence of life

Resurrection is the bringing of the dead back to life

Without a resurrection death would be permanent.

 

[Derf]

Death is the absence of life

Resurrection is the bringing of the dead back to life

Without a resurrection death would be permanent.

Thanks oatmeal. I agree, but I still wonder if there's a "life" that doesn't require a body. Certainly there are some creatures that are spirit (angels), and God is spirit. Neither seem to have physical bodies nor are they bound to physical things. Is it possible that men also have a spiritual side that remains after death?

If not, why not?

 

[God's Truth]

Death is the absence of life

Resurrection is the bringing of the dead back to life

Without a resurrection death would be permanent.

The scriptures clearly tell us that after Jesus died on the cross he went in his Spirit to Hell.

The gates of Hell could not keep him there.

This is all scripture.

 

[God's Truth]

He did. Jesus died physically meaning he stopped breathing and he died spiritually.

It has been appointed for everyone to die once.

This death can be physical with a cessation of breath or it can be spiritual with a cessation of sin.

Jesus died spiritually not because he sinned but he died spiritually for many.

"Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." (Hebrews 9:28)

We are born spiritually dead, which means we lack eternal life.

Eternal life is a gift from God, not something we have by nature.

Those who have died spiritually by baptism are raised a new person.

This new person will be given eternal life.

We will shed this physical body by a physical death.

The Father determines the time.

It can be in this age or at the appearing of Christ.

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51)

Those with eternal life sleep, but they can't die.

"To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." (Hebrews 9:28)

To believe as you do you would have to have a doctrine of death and deny much truth.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

There are 2 deaths and 2 Resurrections.

1st death is when we die in this life and go to Heaven or Hell.

2nd death is at the end of the Millennial reign after the great white throne judgement when non-Christians etc are sent to the lake of fire.

1st Resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

2nd Resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.

 

[oatmeal]

The scriptures clearly tell us that after Jesus died on the cross he went in his Spirit to Hell.

The gates of Hell could not keep him there.

This is all scripture.

Then show me the scripture that supports your statments

Acts 17:11

If you are right anyone should be able to read it for themselves