What would the Romans have done at Masada if...

aikido7

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If the rebellion had not ended in suicide?
Killed them. They had finished building a "siege ramp" and had used it to enter the fortress. Unfortunately they had to immediately put a stop to their own violent actions as nearly everyone was already dead.
 

dialm

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Killed them. They had finished building a "siege ramp" and had used it to enter the fortress. Unfortunately they had to immediately put a stop to their own violent actions as nearly everyone was already dead.

Usually the Romans were very predictable. That is generally the way law abiding nations are. The Romans kind of represent the world. And the world is highly law motivated.

In this senario what the Romans would have done was what they always did. Execute the leadership first then sell the followers into slavery. This would be the legal method.

The unpredictability of the Romans was the way they conquered. The people locked up in Masada were taken completely by surprise. They had no idea of the power and dogged fortitude of the Romans.

The Masadites thought they had a lot of time. This was not true. It took very little time for the ramp to be completed. Then it was easy. Rome walked right in because there was absolutely no defense.
 

aikido7

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Usually the Romans were very predictable. That is generally the way law abiding nations are. The Romans kind of represent the world. And the world is highly law motivated.

In this senario what the Romans would have done was what they always did. Execute the leadership first then sell the followers into slavery. This would be the legal method.

The unpredictability of the Romans was the way they conquered. The people locked up in Masada were taken completely by surprise. They had no idea of the power and dogged fortitude of the Romans.

The Masadites thought they had a lot of time. This was not true. It took very little time for the ramp to be completed. Then it was easy. Rome walked right in because there was absolutely no defense.
I think most Jews knew which side their own bread was buttered on, and it wasn't on the side of the Empire. It was no accident Jesus used the phrase "Kingdom of God." He pointed to what life would be like if God sat on the royal throne instead of Augustus.

Their defense was taking their own lives. Jews threatened to do this a couple of other times when Pilate was disrespecting their God with his royal images.
In both cases, the Jews made it clear they would cut their own throats first. Amazingly, Pilate realized the scope of the protest and backed down. Unfortunately, he did not do this with Jesus.
 

dialm

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The only thing the Romans were going to do was execute a couple leaders then sell the followers into slavery. That was a normal process. Suicide was a ridiculous response. After all, Isreal began as a slave nation. They were used to it. And the hand full of leaders were going to die anyway.

Unless the Masadites were more Roman then we are led to believe. Rome prescribed suicide in the face of defeat. By committing suicide the Masadites were saying how Roman they were.
 

aikido7

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The only thing the Romans were going to do was execute a couple leaders then sell the followers into slavery. That was a normal process. Suicide was a ridiculous response. After all, Isreal began as a slave nation. They were used to it. And the hand full of leaders were going to die anyway.

Unless the Masadites were more Roman then we are led to believe. Rome prescribed suicide in the face of defeat. By committing suicide the Masadites were saying how Roman they were.
Is this information from the historian Josephus?

If not, I would sure appreciate any historical source you could direct me to.

I always need my beliefs a good "shaking up" at times.

Thanks in advance!
 

dialm

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The Masada account is recorded history. What they did was too first rebel against Rome then they rebelled against Jerusalem They had their reasons for rebelling.

The Roman theory of governing is also recorded history. To conquer they used the carrot and stick approach. First they offered friendship. If rejected they would force the friendship. Very few nations got the privilege of rejecting Roman friendship. Germany and Scotland were two. Israel was a good friend to Rome for many years. Actually Masada was built to Roman specifications just like King Herod's Temple. Why the Romans were so impressed by the Temple that they just simply had to have it. You can visit King Herrod's Temple in Rome today. Everyone there knows where the Collisium is located. All you have to do is ask.
 

aikido7

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The Masada account is recorded history. What they did was too first rebel against Rome then they rebelled against Jerusalem They had their reasons for rebelling.

The Roman theory of governing is also recorded history. To conquer they used the carrot and stick approach. First they offered friendship. If rejected they would force the friendship. Very few nations got the privilege of rejecting Roman friendship. Germany and Scotland were two. Israel was a good friend to Rome for many years. Actually Masada was built to Roman specifications just like King Herod's Temple. Why the Romans were so impressed by the Temple that they just simply had to have it. You can visit King Herrod's Temple in Rome today. Everyone there knows where the Collisium is located. All you have to do is ask.
Where, specifically, is this "recorded history"? I was under the impression that Josephus's account is our primary source, and your "carrot and stick" theory is just not there.

I would like more specifics from primary sources (which other sources are they?).
 

dialm

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Well Josephus was a Roman employee/slave historian. The very kind of a person that the Masadites were trying to rid the Holy Land of. In the eyes of the people on Masada Josephus was a traitor. It would be doing a disservice to the memory of those who committed suicide if we also employed Josephus.

Have you ever heard of the unwritten word? The one used by the rabbis and old sages? They have a body of knowledge. Martin Luther even used their knowledge to a certain extent. We don't need Josephus. He didn't write anything new and nothing we can't get from more reliable sources.

Here look-

Ancient Isreal was given the task of leading the world in worship. But they couldn't get the job done. So God had the entire Temple moved to Rome where the entire world could worship in the blood sacrifices carried on in the Collisium. Why they even sacrificed those impudent Christians there in Herod's Temple.
 

bybee

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Usually the Romans were very predictable. That is generally the way law abiding nations are. The Romans kind of represent the world. And the world is highly law motivated.

In this senario what the Romans would have done was what they always did. Execute the leadership first then sell the followers into slavery. This would be the legal method.

The unpredictability of the Romans was the way they conquered. The people locked up in Masada were taken completely by surprise. They had no idea of the power and dogged fortitude of the Romans.

The Masadites thought they had a lot of time. This was not true. It took very little time for the ramp to be completed. Then it was easy. Rome walked right in because there was absolutely no defense.

What defense is there against overriding greed, violence and oppression? If the populace is kept without any way to defend itself it will surely be enslaved and/or slaughtered.
 

bybee

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Well Josephus was a Roman employee/slave historian. The very kind of a person that the Masadites were trying to rid the Holy Land of. In the eyes of the people on Masada Josephus was a traitor. It would be doing a disservice to the memory of those who committed suicide if we also employed Josephus.

Have you ever heard of the unwritten word? The one used by the rabbis and old sages? They have a body of knowledge. Martin Luther even used their knowledge to a certain extent. We don't need Josephus. He didn't write anything new and nothing we can't get from more reliable sources.

Here look-

Ancient Isreal was given the task of leading the world in worship. But they couldn't get the job done. So God had the entire Temple moved to Rome where the entire world could worship in the blood sacrifices carried on in the Collisium. Why they even sacrificed those impudent Christians there in Herod's Temple.

I do not toss Josephus out the window. I take him with a grain of salt.
 

dialm

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What defense is there against overriding greed, violence and oppression? If the populace is kept without any way to defend itself it will surely be enslaved and/or slaughtered.

With all do respect bybee,

So what?

It costs money to build roads and such. Israel had to pay just like everyone else. It was not a nation of elites. The average height of the male Isrealite at the time was about 4 feet. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack. They were constantly crying out for someone to save them. Then, when Savior finally showed up they stabbed Him in the back.

Let's get real just before I get booted out.

Israel was a slave nation. There was no reason to commit suicide over that. Moses even said to choose life so that God would have people like He wanted.

The Masadites didn't have the spine to accept The Will Of GOD.

That is the meaning of suicide in a nut shell. We don't need Josephus to figure that out.
 

bybee

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With all do respect bybee,

So what?

It costs money to build roads and such. Israel had to pay just like everyone else. It was not a nation of elites. The average height of the male Isrealite at the time was about 4 feet. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack. They were constantly crying out for someone to save them. Then, when Savior finally showed up they stabbed Him in the back.

Let's get real just before I get booted out.

Israel was a slave nation. There was no reason to commit suicide over that. Moses even said to choose life so that God would have people like He wanted.

The Masadites didn't have the spine to accept The Will Of GOD.

That is the meaning of suicide in a nut shell. We don't need Josephus to figure that out.

Perhaps if you were to see a shrink? Soon?
 

dialm

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Saw the movie 'Shinking Lady' and have been around some shrinking violets.

Maybe it is true that the modern American Christians are the replacement Isrealites? They certainly whine like ancient Isreal.
 

bybee

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Saw the movie 'Shinking Lady' and have been around some shrinking violets.

Maybe it is true that the modern American Christians are the replacement Isrealites? They certainly whine like ancient Isreal.

You seem to have a good deal to whine about?
 

dialm

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Ok. Here let me really whine.

We got an anti-Christian here at this site whose handle makes a direct reference to Masada where a mass suicide took place.

I don't like that. They need to remove Bin Masada's name. And I spelled Bin the way it should really be spelled.
 

dialm

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If they don't want to remove Bin Masada's name then they need to explain the value of mass suicide to us like you are trying to do bybee.
 

RBBI

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Wow.....he's a Jew who needs His messiah. This site SHOULD be where he finds Him, as we may be the only Yeshua He ever sees.

I don't agree with it, but to them, Masada was an act of heroism, preferring death at their own hands as opposed to that of the Roman's hands.

But then in the same time period, in the same culture, who knows what any of us would do faced with the same circumstances? If I thought my wife was going to be raped and my children sold as slaves, I might see it as an act of mercy, in the moment. Peace
 

dialm

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What defense is there against overriding greed, violence and oppression? If the populace is kept without any way to defend itself it will surely be enslaved and/or slaughtered.

What is the answer that Masada gave?

Oh yeah, mass suicide.

Or didn't you know that?
 
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