When does life begin? Granite vs. reality

[Turbo]

:chuckle: And what [person], presumably innocent of all sin, is going to say no, I don't want to go to heaven right there behind those pearly gates, I'd rather go to hell!

For a clue, see Genesis 3.

 

[avatar382]

It is a blessing (no disguise). God's plan is perfect.

How does this make murdering babies a good thing?

You sure are a master of loaded language.

You refer to the blastocyst, best described as a grouping of a few hundred generic cells that haven't become specialized into any kind of organs, tissue, or even blood as a "baby" - and somehow causing the failure of that blastocyst to implant into the uterus, something that happens up to 70% of the time naturally as "murder."

Just defies common sense and dilutes the meaning of the terms "baby" and "murder".

Great job! :thumb:

 

[avatar382]

For a clue, see Genesis 3.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

There's Genesis 3.

Could you point out exactly where is this "clue" that gives us insight as to why an innocent 0 day old not-even-newborn would choose to burn in hell?

 

[Granite]

It is a blessing (no disguise). God's plan is perfect.

How does this make murdering babies a good thing?

For the last time: neither avatar or myself is using this argument to justify abortion in any way, shape, or form. I am stunned that this assumption keeps coming up.

So if the fall guarantees the majority of humanity goes to heaven it's actually a blessing. The fall was a good thing, in this case. Yes?

 

[On Fire]

For the last time: neither avatar or myself is using this argument to justify abortion in any way, shape, or form. I am stunned that this assumption keeps coming up.

So if the fall guarantees the majority of humanity goes to heaven it's actually a blessing. The fall was a good thing, in this case. Yes?

No. Why is that so important to you?

The fact that God has a plan for unborn babies is unrelated to the fall.

 

[Granite]

What is this plan?:think:

 

[On Fire]

You sure are a master of loaded language.

You refer to the blastocyst, best described as a grouping of a few hundred generic cells that haven't become specialized into any kind of organs, tissue, or even blood as a "baby" - and somehow causing the failure of that blastocyst to implant into the uterus, something that happens up to 70% of the time naturally as "murder."

Just defies common sense and dilutes the meaning of the terms "baby" and "murder".

Great job! :thumb:

Get your head out of your arse.

When it happens naturally it's not murder. When you die of old age or heart failure it won't be deemed a murder.

When a pregnant woman or her "doctor" causes an unborn baby to DIE, that's MURDER.

 

[On Fire]

What makes you say this:

Thus, most human lives (and souls presumably) go straight to heaven.

 

[Granite]

Why exactly would God allow 40-70% of the creatures made in his image to perish?

 

[Turbo]

There's Genesis 3.

Could you point out exactly where is this "clue" that gives us insight as to why an innocent 0 day old not-even-newborn would choose to burn in hell?

Genesis 3 tells the story of three cases of beings that were innocent, who had only existed for a matter of days, yet chose to rebel against God rather than dwell with Him in paradise. Two of them were human, the only two in existence at that time. The other was one angel among many who was innocent but would reject God.

 

[Granite]

Genesis 3 tells the story of three cases of beings that were innocent, who had only existed for a matter of days, yet chose to rebel against God rather than dwell with Him in paradise. Two of them were human, the only two in existence at that time. The other was one angel among many who was innocent but would reject God.

We technically do not know how long between their creation and the fall Adam, Eve, and Satan were kicking around. Scripture leaves this matter open to question.

Moreover the concept of "hell" is never once introduced in the entire account of the fall.

 

[On Fire]

Why exactly would God allow 40-70% of the creatures made in his image to perish?

:doh: Answering questions with questions again....

 

[Granite]

I'm asking because if this is the "plan," the plan stinks. It simply makes no sense. Not on any level whatsoever. If Christians can't answer this question, I'd wonder why.

What is the "plan" for the majority of the human race that never makes it past the embryonic stage? What's the point? What higher purpose does this serve? What's easier: trying to explain if these embryos go to heaven, or simply saying: "The human body's not perfect; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't."

 

[avatar382]

Genesis 3 tells the story of three cases of beings that were innocent, who had only existed for a matter of days, yet chose to rebel against God rather than dwell with Him in paradise. Two of them were human, the only two in existence at that time. The other was one angel among many who was innocent but would reject God.

True enough, by according to the myth they were decieved by the serpent. Being tricked into doing wrong and fully knowing what you are doing is wrong are two different things, IMHO.

Is the serpent going to be up there on judgement day on one end, opposite from God, tempting the unborn? If not, you can't compare this situation to the fall.

(What the heck Satan, who was cast out of heavan in the first place, was doing in the Garden of Eden with God's creation comes to mind, as well. It's like putting an angry bull in a fine china museum - but that's beyond the scope of this thread. :shut: )

 

[avatar382]

I'm asking because if this is the "plan," the plan stinks. It simply makes no sense. Not on any level whatsoever. If Christians can't answer this question, I'd wonder why.

What is the "plan" for the majority of the human race that never makes it past the embryonic stage? What's the point? What higher purpose does this serve? What's easier: trying to explain if these embryos go to heaven, or simply saying: "The human body's not perfect; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't."

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Granite again.

 

[On Fire]

I'm asking because if this is the "plan," the plan stinks. It simply makes no sense. Not on any level whatsoever. If Christians can't answer this question, I'd wonder why.

What is the "plan" for the majority of the human race that never makes it past the embryonic stage? What's the point? What higher purpose does this serve? What's easier: trying to explain if these embryos go to heaven, or simply saying: "The human body's not perfect; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't."

It's easy, dude. I've got your answer but first I need you to clarify what you meant by: "Thus, most human lives (and souls presumably) go straight to heaven."

 

[Granite]

Do you believe these embryos do not go to heaven?

 

[Turbo]

We technically do not know how long between their creation and the fall Adam, Eve, and Satan were kicking around. Scripture leaves this matter open to question.

Well, since God told Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" and they were alone in a beautiful garden and perfectly healthy, yet they had not conceived any children before their fall, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that they weren't there all that long.

Moreover the concept of "hell" is never once introduced in the entire account of the fall.

I didn't say it was. But they did rebel against God, and being ejected from the Garden and God's presence is analogous to being ejected from Heaven and being cut off from God. I think even you recognize this, but as usual you're being argumentative.

 

[Granite]

Well, since God told Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" and they were alone in a beautiful garden and perfectly healthy, yet they had not conceived any children before their fall, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that they weren't there all that long.

I didn't say it was. But they did rebel against God, and being ejected from the Garden and God's presence is analogous to being ejected from Heaven and being cut off from God. I think even you recognize this, but as usual you're being argumentative.

If a perfectly healthy Christian couple doesn't have children right away it doesn't exactly mean they're staying celibate, Turbo. Birth control is as old as mankind, but I digress.

The concept of hell isn't mentioned in the account. Death is. No direct, eternal, permanent threat is ever directed at anyone. That's significant as it changes the dynamic of the fall's personal effects on the three parties involved. There is a very big difference between being told you will "die" and being told you will "die, and get tortured ever after."