When does life begin? Granite vs. reality

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Granite

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Mod note: This thread was split from For the record - Turbo


...whoo-boy. Here we go.

When life begins is a mystery, as far as I'm concerned. Being dogmatic one way or another strikes me as a touch silly.
 
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Granite

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When dealing with a blastocyst, egg, or cell that's a day or two old, I don't think you can say there's much murdering going on. We've been over this. Let's not hijack this thread.
 

Granite

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Dude.

Grow up and let's not do this, again, to someone else's thread. All right?
 

Turbo

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Granite said:
When dealing with a blastocyst, egg, or cell that's a day or two old, I don't think you can say there's much murdering going on.
No one has said that an egg is a human being. That is a straw man that you are using to distract from the real issue here. That is, once an egg is fertilized it is no longer an egg, but a unique living being with a full set of DNA. And for some reason, you think that it's okay to kill these living human beings so long as they haven't yet attached themselves to a uterine wall, right? Do you think that somehow people come to life by attaching themselves to a uterine wall? Is that when and how life begins?

Can you cite a single biological text that agrees with you that life does not begin at fertilization, but rather at implantation? Or did you come up with this idea all on your own?

What evidence brought you to this conclusion? Or is it something you've come up with to sooth your own conscience?

We've been over this. Let's not hijack this thread.
In other words, please don't ask me to defend my indefensible position yet again.
 

On Fire

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Granite said:
Dude.

Grow up and let's not do this, again, to someone else's thread. All right?
Grow a pair. I can leave it alone until you tell another lie. Cool?
 

Granite

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I am not going to indulge you people (one puerile, one something else) and hijack a thread started by someone else. Start another one if so inclined. This is Fields's thread and I am going to treat it as such.
 

On Fire

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If it's a "mystery" then why wouldn't you err on the side of life? Why would you say "I have no idea when life begins so ABORT!"?

But it's not a "mystery". Egg + Sperm = Life. It grows (as only something alive can do).
 

fool

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They got some 100,000 fertilized embryos frozen in liquid nitrogen.
 

Granite

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Turbo said:
No one has said that an egg is a human being. That is a straw man that you are using to distract from the real issue here. That is, once an egg is fertilized it is no longer an egg, but a unique living being with a full set of DNA. And for some reason, you think that it's okay to kill these living human beings so long as they haven't yet attached themselves to a uterine wall, right? Do you think that somehow people come to life by attaching themselves to a uterine wall? Is that when and how life begins?

Can you cite a single biological text that agrees with you that life does not begin at fertilization, but rather at implantation? Or did you come up with this idea all on your own?

What evidence brought you to this conclusion? Or is it something you've come up with to sooth your own conscience?

In other words, please don't ask me to defend my indefensible position yet again.

I simply do not believe that an unattached fertilized egg is "human" given the lack of gender, heart activity, brain waves, and (significantly, given the abortion issue) lack of ability to feel pain. In other words, sentience, self-awareness, and potential to enjoy personal rights--and fight for them--could all be used as criteria for "personhood."
 

2ephesians8

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Granite said:
I simply do not believe that an unattached fertilized egg is "human" given the lack of gender, heart activity, brain waves, and (significantly, given the abortion issue) lack of ability to feel pain. In other words, sentience, self-awareness, and potential to enjoy personal rights--and fight for them--could all be used as criteria for "personhood."


So this is your definition of being 'human'?


How old do you have to be to fight for your life? 1 day? 1Month? 1 Year? Less, More?
Do tell.
 

On Fire

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Granite said:
I think I just spelled it out, OF.
No really. So far we have:

a fertilized egg - OK to abort

not yet a human - OK to abort

not yet a person - OK to abort

Let's make a time line and you indicate where it becomes NOT OK to abort:

0 days abd earlier- Egg - pre-fertilization
7-14 days- Cells multiply and become specialized for muscular, neural, reproductive, skeletal, digestive, and circulatory functions.
20 days- Eyes start to form
22 days- Heart begins to beat
23 days- Central nervous system begins to develop
4 weeks- Skeleton forms and muscles develop, arms and legs begin to form
5 weeks- Nose and mouth form
6 weeks- Brain waves can be recorded
8 weeks- All organs are present, complete, and functioning (except lungs- they follow a little later)
8-10 weeks- Body is completely formed. Responds to touch, fingers and toes defined, has permanent fingerprints, baby can suck thumb
8-13 weeks- The child's sex can be distinguished
11-12weeks- Finger and toenails form, the child can make all facial expressions. All organ systems are working, the baby can feel pain
15 weeks- "Fluff" appears on the baby's head, also has visible eyebrows, eyelashes
16 weeks- Mother can feel the baby move, heart pumps six gallons of blood per day, very rapid growth. Can have REM (dream) sleep
18 weeks- the child is now "complete," needing only more time to grow.
22 weeks- Mother can feel the baby hiccup
20-24 weeks- If born this young, the child could survive outside the womb
25-40 weeks- continued growth and maturity
 

Granite

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2ephesians8 said:
Those are some sweet dance moves... :rolleyes:

What difference does that make?

Not my problem you skim what I write and jump to conclusions, partner.

The ability to defend oneself and recognize your personal rights and liberties indicates higher thought, higher thinking, and self-awareness. That's fairly significant.
 
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