Would a Jew separate the law?

[jzeidler]

So I'm wondering how a Jewish person (or really the original audience) would view a passage such as this:

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace.

Would they see this as the Law as a whole (ceremonial, sacrificial, and moral) or would they split it and only accept that this talks about ceremonial and sacrificial. Leave a comment below please.

 

[chair]

Frankly, I barely understand what you are talking about.

In general, this division of our Law into "ceremonial, sacrificial, and moral" strikes me as a completely foreign concept. Judaism is the religion of the Jews. It is our tribal religion, if you like. Why should we break up our traditions into convenient categories to meet some outsider's philosophical ideas?

 

[tetelestai]

So I'm wondering how a Jewish person (or really the original audience) would view a passage such as this:

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace.

Would they see this as the Law as a whole (ceremonial, sacrificial, and moral) or would they split it and only accept that this talks about ceremonial and sacrificial. Leave a comment below please.

The dividing of the law into three codexes (ceremonial, civil, and moral) was invented by Christians who claim the moral codex has remained in place.

It is not true.

The law was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

The law changed, and the priesthood changed.

The law of the spirit filled life in Christ Jesus has replaced the law of sin and death.

Some Christians claim the 10 Commandments are different than the law of Moses, and that the law of Moses was fulfilled, but the 10 Commandments are still in place. Thus, these Christians observe the Sabbath (even though they changed it to Sunday) in addition to the other moral commandments found in the 10 Commandments.

 

[jzeidler]

Frankly, I barely understand what you are talking about.

In general, this division of our Law into "ceremonial, sacrificial, and moral" strikes me as a completely foreign concept. Judaism is the religion of the Jews. It is our tribal religion, if you like. Why should we break up our traditions into convenient categories to meet some outsider's philosophical ideas?

Thank you that's actually very helpful. What I'm trying to get at is what is the Jewish understanding for law. I unfortunately am not a Jew so I don't know. I do know that the modern church likes to split the law into three categories and that Jesus died to set Christians free from ceremonial and sacrificial law but not moral law. I'm just trying to figure out if that separation makes any sense to the Jewish mind.

 

[jzeidler]

The dividing of the law into three codexes (ceremonial, civil, and moral) was invented by Christians who claim the moral codex has remained in place.

It is not true.

The law was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

The law changed, and the priesthood changed.

The law of the spirit filled life in Christ Jesus has replaced the law of sin and death.

Some Christians claim the 10 Commandments are different than the law of Moses, and that the law of Moses was fulfilled, but the 10 Commandments are still in place. Thus, these Christians observe the Sabbath (even though they changed it to Sunday) in addition to the other moral commandments found in the 10 Commandments.

Thank you, this is fascinating. If you have more please feel free to post more.

 

[tetelestai]

What I'm trying to get at is what is the Jewish understanding for law.

This is where it gets interesting.

The Jews obviously don't believe Christ Jesus fulfilled the law.

However, Jews today mostly rely on the Jewish Talmud for observing the law instead of the actual Law of Moses.

Obviously there is no temple or High Priest from the family of Aaron. So, it makes it impossible for many of the laws found in the Law of Moses to be observed.

Jews don't make mandatory pilgrimages to Jerusalem three times a year, nor do they sacrifice animals, etc.

The Talmud explains to them how they don't have to observe these laws found in the Law of Moses.

The Talmud is not from God. IMO, the Talmud is an evil book.

Jesus constantly scolded the Talmud following Pharisees for following the traditions of men instead of the law of God.

(Mark 7:8) You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions."

The "human traditions" that Jesus is referring to is what is found in the Talmud.

The law is either in place today (every jot and tittle), or it's not in place today. There is no in-between.

The Bible tells us the priesthood changed, and tells us that when the priesthood changes, the law must also change.

(Heb 7:12) For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

The Apostle Paul tells us the law of the spirit filled life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death:

(Rom 8:2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[jamie]

I'm just trying to figure out if that separation makes any sense to the Jewish mind.

Paul taught Jesus' kingdom of God and persuaded Jews concerning Jesus from the Law and the Prophets.

So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.
(Acts 28:23 NKJV)​

Today it seems many Christians are not able to do that because they don't understand God's relationship to the people of Jacob.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate when he was determined to let Him go. (Acts 3:13 NKJV)​

 

[chair]

This is where it gets interesting.

The Jews obviously don't believe Christ Jesus fulfilled the law.

However, Jews today mostly rely on the Jewish Talmud for observing the law instead of the actual Law of Moses...

There are some Christians, like yourself, who view Judaism as a frozen, dead religion. That we must do exactly what we did 3,000 years ago. That would include an eye for an eye, and perhaps some others things you would not be too happy about.

Sorry to disappoint you: This is our religion, it is alive, not dead and frozen, and you do not get to tell us what we ought to be doing.

Go bother somebody else.

 

[jzeidler]

Chair, would a Jew when speaking of the Law ever separate it into sacrificial, ceremonial, and moral? If you read scripture and it said law and it just said "Law" would you take that as the Law as a whole or a specific part of the law? Would the Jewish mind even separate it?

 

[chair]

Chair, would a Jew when speaking of the Law ever separate it into sacrificial, ceremonial, and moral? If you read scripture and it said law and it just said "Law" would you take that as the Law as a whole or a specific part of the law? Would the Jewish mind even separate it?

We don't even use the term "Law" the way you do.

There is the "Torah", which, depending on context, could be the Five Books of Moses or the entire collection of Jewish laws and customs over the generations. We sue the term "Halacha" to mean "law"- but it means "way" (more or less).

There are divisions by subject in various collections of law, such as the Mishnah, but not in the way you describe it.

 

[Danoh]

We don't even use the term "Law" the way you do.

There is the "Torah", which, depending on context, could be the Five Books of Moses or the entire collection of Jewish laws and customs over the generations. We sue the term "Halacha" to mean "law"- but it means "way" (more or less).

There are divisions by subject in various collections of law, such as the Mishnah, but not in the way you describe it.

And one sees those kinds of categories in places like Luke 2.

One category, for example:

22. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

The last half of that bringing up a different category:

23. [As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;]
24. And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

 

[chair]

And one sees those kinds of categories in places like Luke 2.

One category, for example:

22. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

The last half of that bringing up a different category:

23. [As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;]
24. And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

You are reading your ideas about these categories into the text.

 

[tetelestai]

There are some Christians, like yourself, who view Judaism as a frozen, dead religion.

I never said "Judaism". Judaism adheres to the evil Talmud.

God gave Moses the law, it is found in the Torah. The Israelites didn't adhere to "Judaism". Judaism didn't exist until the nation of Israel split into two nations.

The Law and Prophets is found in the Tanakh.

Anything outside the Tanakh is not from God, it is from men. The Talmud is from men, not God.

That we must do exactly what we did 3,000 years ago.

Putting aside the fact that Christ Jesus fulfilled the law, God never told the Jews to change the law.

That would include an eye for an eye, and perhaps some others things you would not be too happy about.

The law was fulfilled by Christ Jesus, but I am smart enough to know what the law was before it was fulfilled, and know that the Jews (via the evil Talmud) perverted the Law of Moses.

Sorry to disappoint you: This is our religion, it is alive, not dead and frozen, and you do not get to tell us what we ought to be doing.

You Talmud following Jews are a lot like the Catholics. Both of you listen to what men say about the God's Word instead of what the Bible actually says.

The Catholics have what the popes have said about the Bible, and you Jews have what Talmudic Rabbis have said about the Tanakh.

Go bother somebody else.

Jesus Christ is the answer, not the evil Talmud that you follow.

 

[tetelestai]

The last half of that bringing up a different category:

23. [As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;]
24. And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Are you really that dense? This the problem you KJVO's make all the time. You can't tell when a NT writer is quoting an OT verse. You should try a Bible version with footnotes.

Verses 22 & 23 are both from the Law of Moses, not some other "category"

Verse 23 is found in the Law of Moses:

(Exodus 13:2) “Consecrate to Me all the firstborn, whatever opens the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and beast; it is Mine.”

 

[chair]

I never said "Judaism". Judaism adheres to the evil Talmud...

"Evil"?

 

[tetelestai]

"Evil"?

Yes "Evil"

The Talmud is an evil book.

Isaiah prophesied about it:

(Isaiah 29:13) These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is based on merely human rules they have been taught

You put the human rules of the Talmud over the Word of God.

 

[Ktoyou]

There are some Christians, like yourself, who view Judaism as a frozen, dead religion. That we must do exactly what we did 3,000 years ago. That would include an eye for an eye, and perhaps some others things you would not be too happy about.

Sorry to disappoint you: This is our religion, it is alive, not dead and frozen, and you do not get to tell us what we ought to be doing.

Go bother somebody else.

Good to see you sticking up for yourself. :up:

Tet had a better first post, then he started in with 'evil book' nonsense. That is how he blows it every time.

 

[Danoh]

You are reading your ideas about these categories into the text.

So the days of a woman's purification according to the Law that are being referenced there, also applied to men?

And circumcision of the flesh also applied to an eight day old girl?

If so, then along with what the Lord said was not yet finished, He also left some other parts of keeping Law unfinished as well.

 

[tetelestai]

Good to see you sticking up for yourself. :up:

Tet had a better first post, then he started in with 'evil book' nonsense. That is how he blows it every time.

Have you ever read the Talmud?

 

[Ktoyou]

Talmud and Kabbalah