You Cannot Live the Christian Life

[Jerry Shugart]

So, you don't think God knew that when He gave His commands?

That is not the point. The point is that the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that at least in theory a person can obtain eternal life as a result of his own works or deeds. And since it is theoretically possible that can only mean that all people must have the ability to obtain eternal life in that way.

Clearly, He dId, and that means He does give people commands that are impossible for them to do.....while in the flesh.

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.​

When Paul speaks of walking after the flesh he is speaking of living a self-centered life. When he speaks of walking after the Spirit he is speaking about living a God-centered life. There is nothing that is sinful about a person's flesh or his body. Let us look at the following verse:

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:4).​

Paul speaks about that same principle in the verse which follows:

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" (Ro.8:5).​

We can also understand that it is indeed possible for a Christian to walk or live after the flesh because Paul tells Christians that if they live after the flesh they shall die:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:13).​

The "death" spoken of here is in regard to the "life" which Paul speaks of here:, that "we should also walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:4) so that "the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11). So if a Christian lives a self-centered life any newness of life which they once had will die or cease to exist.

The second part of verse 13 is telling Christians that if they mortify the deeds of the body they will live. Christians are already received eternal life so Paul's words there are also referring to walking in newness of life.

 

[glorydaz]

The reason He said that He can do nothing of Himself is "because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

If He did something of Himself then He would be doing things according to His own will and not doing things according to the Father's will. That is why He said "He can do nothing of Himself."

He knew that He was coming to the earth to do the Father's will and the Father's will was that He would be the spotless Lamb Who would die on the Cross. So He remained spotless and as a result of His death all believers are redeemed by His blood.

He was tempted as we are but He did not give in to any temptation and He lived a Christian life.

The Son can do nothing of Himself. Not by His own human will...not by His own human power....not with His own human strength. Don't pick out one detail and make a big deal out it. The article was very clear. Man was created to rely totally on God, and that's exactly what Jesus did.

 

[glorydaz]

That is not the point. The point is that the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that at least in theory a person can obtain eternal life as a result of his own works or deeds. And since it is theoretically possible that can only mean that all people must have the ability to obtain eternal life in that way.

Theoretically does not equal reality.

 

[glorydaz]

That is not the point. The point is that the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that at least in theory a person can obtain eternal life as a result of his own works or deeds. And since it is theoretically possible that can only mean that all people must have the ability to obtain eternal life in that way.

Theoretically possible is not in the same realm as reality and practical application.

You admitted yourself no one has.

Man does not have the "ability" to do what God has not created man to do, no matter how you read that verse. Man can try, and man can boast, but man was created to rely on God. We were created for His Glory.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.​

 

[glorydaz]

What makes you think that God commands people to do things that are impossible for them to do?
Nothing in the Bible even hints at that.

I think Paul makes it clear. The very word "command" speaks of law. If righteousness does not come from the Law (commands), then there has to be another reason the Law was given, seeing it could not be obeyed well enough to earn righteousness.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.​

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Son can do nothing of Himself. Not by His own human will...not by His own human power....not with His own human strength.

The Lord Jesus' own human will was responsible for Him being able to do the will of the Father. After all, He said that He came to DO the will of the Father:

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me" (Jn.6:38).​

Do you deny that it was the Lord Jesus' own will which resulted in Him doing the will of the Father?

If you cannot deny that then that proves that the Lord Jesus was able by Himself to live a Christian life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Theoretically possible is not in the same realm as reality and practical application.

Since it is theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by his own deeds then that can only mean that he has the ability to do that. If a person doesn't have that ability then it wouldn't even be theoretically possible.

If a person does not have the ability to keep the law then it would be unjust of God to declare anyone guilty of breaking the law.

 

[genuineoriginal]

In the second chapter of the book of Romans Paul reveals that a man can theoretically obtain eternal life by his "deeds" or by his "works":

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes that people do indeed have the ability to continue in well doing:

"Therefore also is it that while 'patient continuance in well doing' is within the human capacity, Rom. 2:6-11 applies to all whether with or without a divine revelation...The dogma of the moral depravity of man, and irremediable, cannot be reconciled with divine justice in punishing sin. If by the law of his fallen nature man were incapable of doing right, it would be clearly inequitable to punish him for doing wrong. If the Fall had made him crooked-backed, to punish him for not standing upright, would be worthy of an unscrupulous and cruel tyrant. But we must distinguish between theological dogma and divine truth. That man is without excuse is the clear testimony of Holy Writ" (Sir Robert Anderson, "Sin and Judgment to Come," The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth; Volume VI [Chicago: Testimony Publishing Co., 1910], 42-3, 38-9).​

Of course at one time or another all people decide to go their own way instead the Lord's way and end up sinning. Therefore, no one has ever received eternal life by his own works.

Yes.
Many modern Christians teach that a single sin condemns a person to hell with no remedy.
The Bible says that humbling yourself before God and repenting of your sin is the remedy for sin.
The "patient continuance in well doing" does not mean living a completely sinless life, it means repenting of sin when you stumble and then going back to living righteously.
To live in "patient continuance in well doing" means that you will rise up again after you fall into sin.

Proverbs 24:16 16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

You're missing the point, Jerry, and you're jumping to a wrong conclusion. Our Lord, being a human being, would not have been able to live the Christian life on His own.

According to the Bible, a human being is able to live the Christian life on his own.
Maybe the problem is what modern Christians claim "living the Christian life" is all about?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To live in "patient continuance in well doing" means that you will rise up again after you fall into sin.

No, once a person sins he is no longer continuing in well doing. Once a person sins he dies spiritually and in order to be saved he must be born again of the Spirit.

According to the Bible, a human being is able to live the Christian life on his own.

Once anyone sins then he must first be born again and then walk after the Spirit in order to live the Christian life.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, once a person sins he is no longer continuing in well doing. Once a person sins he dies

Yes, scripture states that a person that sins will die.

Ezekiel 18:24 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​

in order to be saved he must be born again of the Spirit.
Once anyone sins then he must first be born again and then walk after the Spirit in order to live the Christian life.

You seem to be ignoring some of the things stated in scripture.

Ezekiel 18:27-28 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.​

"Walking after the Spirit" is just Paul's way of stating "turn away from wickedness and do that which is lawful and right"

Another thing to consider is whether "born again" happens when you first believe or if being "born again" is what happens in the Resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:44,46,49-54 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, scripture states that a person that sins will die.

The verses you quoted are in regard to those who lived under the law of Moses and the penalty of physical death. But the subject of which I was referring to is spiritual death.

You seem to be ignoring some of the things stated in scripture.

Those verses are not speaking of spiritual life but physical life.

"Walking after the Spirit" is just Paul's way of stating "turn away from wickedness and do that which is lawful and right"

No, it is speaking about living a God centered life as opposed to a self-centered life.

Another thing to consider is whether "born again" happens when you first believe or if being "born again" is what happens in the Resurrection.

Peter speaks of those who are "born again" in the present tense (1 Pet.1:23) so it is clear that being "born again" is not something which will happen in the future.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The verses you quoted are in regard to those who lived under the law of Moses and the penalty of physical death. But the subject of which I was referring to is spiritual death.
Those verses are not speaking of spiritual life but physical life.

The verses are speaking about what happens to a person after the judgment.
The righteous person that turn to wickedness will be dead after the judgment.
The wicked person that turns to righteousness will live after the judgment.

Peter speaks of those who are "born again" in the present tense (1 Pet.1:23) so it is clear that being "born again" is not something which will happen in the future.

John says that we will become like Jesus when He appears.
Paul says we will change from an earthly body to a heavenly body in the twinkling of an eye.

Are you claiming that the change testified by John and Paul is not the same as being born again?

Paul says that we are waiting for the adoption.
Is the adoption a different event than being born again?

The writers of the New Testament often speak about our future state as if we have already attained that state.
They also speak about our future state not happening until the return of Jesus.
Peter states that we will not receive the salvation of our souls until the appearing of Jesus Christ.
Paul states that we wait for our salvation and that our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed the gospel.
But, in other places we are told that we have already been saved.

Are we waiting for our salvation, or have we already been saved?

 

[glorydaz]

According to the Bible, a human being is able to live the Christian life on his own.
Maybe the problem is what modern Christians claim "living the Christian life" is all about?

On his own? Really? I don't see the Bible making that claim.

So, without the Spirit of God dwelling in them, they can live the Christian life? Those "modern" Christians are either false believers, or they are simply ignorant.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

The danger, GO, is that man will always be prone to boast. Therefore boasting is excluded by the very law of faith. All glory goes to God.

 

[glorydaz]

The Lord Jesus' own human will was responsible for Him being able to do the will of the Father. After all, He said that He came to DO the will of the Father:

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me" (Jn.6:38).​

Do you deny that it was the Lord Jesus' own will which resulted in Him doing the will of the Father?

If you cannot deny that then that proves that the Lord Jesus was able by Himself to live a Christian life.

I believe what is true for us was true for the man Jesus.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

On his own? Really? I don't see the Bible making that claim.

1 Timothy 1:18-19 18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:​

1 Timothy 6:11-12 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.​

 

[glorydaz]

1 Timothy 1:18-19 18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:​

1 Timothy 6:11-12 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.​

And wasn't Timothy a member of the body of Christ with the indwelling Spirit. Wasn't Timothy a new creature....created IN Christ Jesus?

Well, then, he was not doing anything on his own.

 

[glorydaz]

"Walking after the Spirit" is just Paul's way of stating "turn away from wickedness and do that which is lawful and right"

Actually, it's Paul's way of saying we have been created a "new creature" "IN CHRIST".

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

True believers walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

You cannot ignore Paul's teaching here to support man's efforts to be holy. Those who are after the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit...not the works of the flesh.

Romans 5:4-5 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe what is true for us was true for the man Jesus.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

If that is true then why was the Lord Jesus own will in opposition to that of the Father?:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

Now would you answer my question?:

Do you deny that it was the Lord Jesus' own will which resulted in Him doing the will of the Father?​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

True believers walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

When Paul speaks of walking after the flesh he is speaking of living a self-centered life. When he speaks of walking after the Spirit he is speaking about living a God-centered life. There is nothing that is sinful about a person's flesh or his body. Let us look at the following verse:

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:4).​

Paul speaks about that same principle in the verse which follows:

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" (Ro.8:5).​

We can also understand that it is indeed possible for a Christian to walk or live after the flesh because Paul tells Christians that if they live after the flesh they shall die:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:13).​

The "death" spoken of here is in regard to the "life" which Paul speaks of here:, that "we should also walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:4) so that "the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11). So if a Christian lives a self-centered life any newness of life which they once had will die or cease to exist.

The second part of verse 13 is telling Christians that if they mortify the deeds of the body they will live. Christians are already received eternal life so Paul's words there are also referring to walking in newness of life.